The two towers - Page 5

BeardofPants · 12-23-2002, 01:35 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Elf Girl
It says in the Letters that the towers were Orthanc and Cirith Ungol.

While it *does* mention that, if you actually look further, you will see that even Tolkien can't decide:

Quote:

Originally posted by BeardofPants
"The Two Towers gets as near as possible to finding a title to cover the widely divergent Books 3 & 4; and can be left ambiguous - it might refer to Isengard and Barad-dur, or to Minas Tirith and B; or Isengard and Cirith Ungol (1)." [Letter #140]

And in the footnote to the above (1):

"In a subsequent letter to Ranyer Unwin (#143), Tolkien is more definite that the Two Towers are 'Orthanc and the Tower of Cirith Ungol'. On the other hand, in his original design for the jacket of The Two Towers (see #151) the Towers are certainly Orthanc and Minas Morgul. Orthanc is shown as a black tower, three-horned (as seen in Pictures no. 27), and with the sign of the White Hand beside it; Minas Morgul is a white tower, with a thin waning moon above it, in reference to its original name, Minas Ithil, the Tower of the Rising Moon (FotR p. 257). Between the two towers a Nazgul flies."

"I am not at all happy about the title 'the Two Towers'. It must if there is any real reference in it to Vol II refer to Orthanc and the Tower of Cirith Ungol. But since there is so much made of the basic opposition of the Dark Tower and Minas Tirith, that seems very misleading." [Letter #143]

From here.

Artanis · 12-23-2002, 01:41 PM

Hm, BoP you beat me.

BeardofPants · 12-23-2002, 02:06 PM

Laurelyn · 12-29-2002, 08:30 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by CardenIAntauraNauco
I think it is Morgul and Tirith
In the Quenyan texts the title is
"I Atta Mindu " I = the, Atta = two, Mindu - this is towers in dual form. Meaning they have to be associated with one another. Their are two types of plural one for two unassociated objects and one fore related,the aforementioned "dual form".

So I hold with the The Minas Morgul and Minas Tirith belief.

Couldn't you just say "Mindu" and have the dual form hold the number in place?

markedel · 12-29-2002, 03:00 PM

But Cirith Ungol and Orthanc are linked too-Numenorian watchtowers abandoned and seized by the Enemy.

squinteyedsoutherner · 12-29-2002, 05:14 PM

What are the dates of those letters?

It sounds to me like Tolkien is still trying to persuade them to change the title in those letters. Afterall, why would Tolkien be writing those kinds of letters to his publisher after he had supplied them with the paragraph and cover art for the book and it had already been published?

It seems like there is an initial debate over the title itself, and then a subsequent debate over which towers, which would fit because at some point Unwin would have asked for an illustration which would have resulted in a debate over which towers to depict.

If those letters pre-date the publication then they need to be viewed in light of the fact that Tolkien is trying to get the title changed (by pointing out it's ambiguity) and if they predate the paragraph, then we know he came to a decision after they were written.

He also attempted to have the third book entitled The War of the Ring, because he felt The Return of the King gave too much away. He lost that battle also.

**Nurvingiel** · 12-30-2002, 04:28 AM

The Lord of the Rings was origionally one book, and Tolkien reluctantly split them into three on the urgings of the publishers. I don't think he was 100% sure of which towers either.

12-23-2002, 01:41 PM	#82
Artanis Greatest Elven woman of Aman Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Having way too much fun with Fëanor's 7 Posts: 4,285	Hm, BoP you beat me. __________________ --Life is hard, and then we die. Last edited by Artanis : 12-23-2002 at 01:42 PM.

12-23-2002, 02:06 PM	#83
BeardofPants the Shrike Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: San Francisco, CA <3 Posts: 10,647	__________________ "Binary solo! 0000001! 00000011! 0000001! 00000011!" ~ The Humans are Dead, Flight of the Conchords

12-29-2002, 03:00 PM	#85
markedel 'Sober' Mullet Frosh Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Queen's Posts: 1,245	But Cirith Ungol and Orthanc are linked too-Numenorian watchtowers abandoned and seized by the Enemy. __________________ "Earnur was a man like his father in valour, but not in wisdom"

12-29-2002, 05:14 PM	#86
squinteyedsoutherner Elven Warrior Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Canada Posts: 198	What are the dates of those letters? It sounds to me like Tolkien is still trying to persuade them to change the title in those letters. Afterall, why would Tolkien be writing those kinds of letters to his publisher after he had supplied them with the paragraph and cover art for the book and it had already been published? It seems like there is an initial debate over the title itself, and then a subsequent debate over which towers, which would fit because at some point Unwin would have asked for an illustration which would have resulted in a debate over which towers to depict. If those letters pre-date the publication then they need to be viewed in light of the fact that Tolkien is trying to get the title changed (by pointing out it's ambiguity) and if they predate the paragraph, then we know he came to a decision after they were written. He also attempted to have the third book entitled The War of the Ring, because he felt The Return of the King gave too much away. He lost that battle also. Last edited by squinteyedsoutherner : 12-29-2002 at 05:20 PM.

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