Wraiths Before the Ring

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by Galin

Tar Elendil b. 350 - d. 751, surrendered sceptre 740, married late in life (agrees with LE). When age 198 (171) Silmarien was born in 548 (521), and 2 years later (22 years later) when age 200 (193) Tar-Meneldur was born in 550 (543). Tar-Meneldur received the sceptre at age 190 (197) ruling 143 years (143 years) from 740 - 883. He gave up rule 59 years (59 years) before his death in 942 (942) living 392 years (399 years). When age 150 (157) Tar-Aldarion was born in 1700 (1700).

Here my own list deviates: I have Tar-M born in 560 (to keep usual 12 years between siblings). Elendil would be 210 at the time, but it is OK, as Meneldur was not his first child. Isuldur, for example, was 221 at Valandil's birth. He surrendered the scepter in 883 as in LE and died in 959 (399 years). There is need, IMO, to shorten his life inexplicably -all the same he surrendered the scepter long before his time. Tar-Aldarion was born when Meneldur was 140 (157) in 1700.
This said, your dates are quite OK all the same.

Originally Posted by Galin

Tar-Surion b. 1174 - d. 1574, surrendered sceptre 1556, ruled 162 years (all as in LE). When age 106 (146) Tar-Telperien was born in 1280. She was 276 (236) when she took the sceptre in 1556, ruling 139 years (175 years) until her death in 1691. She lived 411 years (411) and had no heir.

Yes, I have the same for Telperien.

Originally Posted by Galin

Isilmo was younger than his sister and son of Tar-Surion. Tolkien does not say when he was born and I use this gap to make him significantly younger (in order to adjust for considerations in Appendix B). He then was born 118 years after his sister -- perhaps because, just before this time, Tar-Surion has come to know or accept that his daughter is truly set on not marrying, and thus she would have no heir. Isilmo was born in 1398 (Tar-Surion would be 224)

Quite sound reasoning to have another child. His Queen must still have been capable of child-bearing at about 150+, given that Isildur's wife had children in 3299, 3339, 2379 and 3430 - 131 year between siblings and that during the time when the life span had dwindled. So OK - he could even be younger than that.

Originally Posted by Galin

Tar-Minastir b. 1596 - d. 2001, at age 95 (257) he took up rule in 1691 (giving Isilmo one year for passing the sceptre would not alter things much in any case), ruling 306 years (138 years) until 1997. He lived 405 years (399) and when age 260 (160) he had a son Tar-Ciryatan. In this way Minastir is king before aid to Middle-earth is sent (Appendix B), but the question arises as to why he would wait so long to have a child. I think we can introduce an imagined accidental death of a first child to help explain this, as long as this sort of thing is not overused. Tar-Minastir loved the Elves, but envied them. He can be said to be 'like Elros' in that he takes the sceptre young and has a notably long rule. With respect to his envious connection however, the first signs of the shadow fall in his time (Appendix A) and perhaps his first son dies by accident, which gets him thinking more about death in general and stirs this envy a bit (son falls from the Tower? possibly too much).

I can't see why the accident with his first son would make him envious of the Eldar - the Eldar are as prone to accidental death as Men.

Originally Posted by Galin

Anyway, at age 260 he has a (second) son and the imagined heir that died could have been around 93 or so, not a child. This would make the first child born when Tar-Minastir was 165 (close to the same age LE has him having Tar-Ciryatan). Tar-Ciryatan b. 1856 - d. 2257, living 401 years (401). At age 141 (235) he received the sceptre in 1997 and ruled 254 years (160) until 2251. When age 155 (166) had a son Tar-Atanamir. Tar-Ciryatan must surrender the sceptre in 2251 in order to agree with Appendix B. '2251 Tar-Atanamir takes the sceptre. Rebellion and division of the Numenoreans begins.' As to his name I will adopt the idea that he built more opulent vessels for himself and those that served him.

OK, quite ingenious.

So you have "closed the gap" firstly making Isilmo much younger than Telperien and then introducing a first son of Tar-Minastir who died quite young. Very interesting.

[Galin]

Originally Posted by Gordis

Quite sound reasoning to have another child. His Queen must still have been capable of child-bearing at about 150+, given that Isildur's wife had children in 3299, 3339, 2379 and 3430 - 131 year between siblings and that during the time when the life span had dwindled. So OK - he could even be younger than that.

I was hoping that one would fly

I can't see why the accident with his first son would make him envious of the Eldar - the Eldar are as prone to accidental death as Men.

That's a bit thin I admit -- the idea was that it gets him thinking about death 'in general' to possibly stir an already existing envy, but yes Elves could die by accident for example, or in war of course. This could be dropped in any case, as well as the imagined son's accident being a fall from the tower, both of which could be pushing things a bit.

So you have "closed the gap" firstly making Isilmo much younger than Telperien and then introducing a first son of Tar-Minastir who died quite young. Very interesting.

Yes that's basically it. Isilmo was key there. Although I had to do more manipulation to also bring the dates back to LE by the time of Ar-Adunakhor of course.

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by Galin

Yes that's basically it. Isilmo was key there.

So, why didn't Tar-Telperien leave the sceptre to her much younger brother, who would be the rightful Heir and only 299 in 1691?

[Galin]

The further tale of Isilmo is very hazy, as he took a voyage one year and never returned.

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by Galin

The further tale of Isilmo is very hazy, as he took a voyage one year and never returned.

Yea, some say he got the Ring and settled in Barad-Dur.
That is exactly what is told in Isilmo theory by Mark Crispin:
HERE

Hmm... Isilmo and his grandson both accidentally die or disappear. There must be something at work!