How to take a Ring from an unwilling Ring-wielder? - crazy ideas

[jammi567]

so if you were going to make an "anti-jammi567" blade, how would that specifically work? would you use runes and spells, or would it be some other way?

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by jammi567

so if you were going to make an "anti-jammi567" blade, how would that specifically work? would you use runes and spells, or would it be some other way?

Hmm, where is my spell book?

Actually, it is a good question. Let us discuss this example, and if we agree on it, the way further will be easier.

So, Jammi, first and foremost, I will have to know your NAME. I could use your penname Jammi567, but I don't think it will work as well as your real one (and your IP number ).

In what I have read on magic, the connection of a person with his name (or an object with its name) is believed to be pretty strong. Many people, afraid of evil spells, kept their real names forever secret, using pseudonyms. (I may be wrong, but something of this belief may influence the custom for monks to take another name, different from their old one). - well don't kill me if I am wrong here.

Also, as there are such things as spells against broad categories of beings (Orcs, for instance, like the spell on Sting), the nature of the person to be hexed is important. So, Jammi, I would have to know whether you are an elf, maia, human, orc, nazgul, hobbit or troll.

Also for a spell, it wouldn't hurt to have a thing belonging to you or your pcture - that is another motive in magic fics and real-life magic practices, but I don't think I saw it in Tolkien.

Pretty difficult to hex you, Jammi, with what little I know and have.

Now let us take the Witch-King of Angmar and the Cardolani craftsman working on the Barrow-Downs TM blade.

What was the WK's real name? no one knew. Did they know he was a nazgul? Hardly.

App. A. ‘It was in the beginning of the reign of Malvegil of Arthedain that evil came to Arnor. For at that time the realm of Angmar arose in the North beyond the Ettenmoors. Its lands lay on both sides of the Mountains, and there were gathered many evil men, and Orcs, and other fell creatures. [The lord of that land was known as the Witch-king, but it was not known until later that he was indeed the chief of the Ringwraiths, who came north with the purpose of destroying the Dúnedain in Arnor, seeing hope in their disunion, while Gondor was strong.]’

Note these square brackets. it means the insertion comes from another source - a note on the margins of the copy of the Red Book, or a quote from a later date.
The BD blades were likely forged between 1356 and 1409. Angmar Kingdom existed since 1300. So, by 1409, the Wich-Kings reign didn't yet seem extremely long - there could be a mortal King who ruled for 100 years, if he was of Numenorean blood. Neither was he reported to be seen by his enemies in person. So, more than likely they didn't know he was a nazgul... So, no name, no knowledge of his nature, no picture, no lost kerchief... how one makes a spell?

...UNLESS someone told them - and that should be someone from Rivendell.

Note that the Cardolani guys and the Imladris Elves were allies against Angmar in the wars of 1356-1409, so some contact with Elrond was more than likely. But in this case, Elrond may have revealed not only the WK's NATURE (a nazgul), but also his REAL NAME. I argued in another thread, that whoever the Witch-King may have been in the Second Age, Elrond and Glorfindel likely knew his identity, but kept it secret - very bad PR for the Line of Elros to have the Chief nazgul among them.
Perhaps for once, seeing Cardolan in peril, Elrond revealed the necessary info - and that info, when used in the spell, made the blades REALLY deadly. That may explain, why they didn't affect the other nazgul to just the same extent - their names remained unknown and were not used.

Counter-argument would be that Elrond apparently didn't know about the blades. Perhaps the Cardolani didn't have time to show him the blades themselves, before they were all destroyed?

Or, perhaps they came by the info about the WK's identity from another source? Or they made a wild guess (much as we are guessing now), and just happened to be right?

What do you think?

(the rest later...)

[jammi567]

Originally Posted by Gordis

Hmm, where is my spell book?

Actually, it is a good question. Let us discuss this example, and if we agree on it, the way further will be easier.

So, Jammi, first and foremost, I will have to know your NAME. I could use your penname Jammi567, but I don't think it will work as well as your real one (and your IP number ).

In what I have read on magic, the connection of a person with his name (or an object with its name) is believed to be pretty strong. Many people, afraid of evil spells, kept their real names forever secret, using pseudonyms. (I may be wrong, but something of this belief may influence the custom for monks to take another name, different from their old one). - well don't kill me if I am wrong here.

Also, as there are such things as spells against broad categories of beings (Orcs, for instance, like the spell on Sting), the nature of the person to be hexed is important. So, Jammi, I would have to know whether you are an elf, maia, human, orc, nazgul, hobbit or troll.

Also for a spell, it wouldn't hurt to have a thing belonging to you or your pcture - that is another motive in magic fics and real-life magic practices, but I don't think I saw it in Tolkien.

Pretty difficult to hex you, Jammi, with what little I know and have.

i never knew that if you know someones real name that they could have power over you.

Originally Posted by Gordis

Now let us take the Witch-King of Angmar and the Cardolani craftsman working on the Barrow-Downs TM blade.

What was the WK's real name? no one knew. Did they know he was a nazgul? Hardly.

Note these square brackets. it means the insertion comes from another source - a note on the margins of the copy of the Red Book, or a quote from a later date.
The BD blades were likely forged between 1356 and 1409. Angmar Kingdom existed since 1300. So, by 1409, the Wich-Kings reign didn't yet seem extremely long - there could be a mortal King who ruled for 100 years, if he was of Numenorean blood. Neither was he reported to be seen by his enemies in person. So, more than likely they didn't know he was a nazgul... So, no name, no knowledge of his nature, no picture, no lost kerchief... how one makes a spell?

...UNLESS someone told them - and that should be someone from Rivendell.

Note that the Cardolani guys and the Imladris Elves were allies against Angmar in the wars of 1356-1409, so some contact with Elrond was more than likely. But in this case, Elrond may have revealed not only the WK's NATURE (a nazgul), but also his REAL NAME. I argued in another thread, that whoever the Witch-King may have been in the Second Age, Elrond and Glorfindel likely knew his identity, but kept it secret - very bad PR for the Line of Elros to have the Chief nazgul among them.
Perhaps for once, seeing Cardolan in peril, Elrond revealed the necessary info - and that info, when used in the spell, made the blades REALLY deadly. That may explain, why they didn't affect the other nazgul to just the same extent - their names remained unknown and were not used.

Counter-argument would be that Elrond apparently didn't know about the blades. Perhaps the Cardolani didn't have time to show him the blades themselves, before they were all destroyed?

Or, perhaps they came by the info about the WK's identity from another source? Or they made a wild guess (much as we are guessing now), and just happened to be right?

What do you think?

(the rest later...)

i like your theory and i agree about how that could work. but one question. if they blades were for just the witch king, where would Elrond get the name from? we have no indication of the human kings being famous in life, and by the time they were famous (as nazgul) i have the feeling that the name would've been lost, as people feared to use it or write it down anywhere. so by the time they started to make the blades, it would've been forgotten. therefore, this is why i believe that they were made for all the nazgul, and not just the witch-king. this is why two of the nazgul halted their advance upon frodo. they knew that the blade he carried could affect them, not just their leader (the witch-king). what do you think.

[tolkienfan]

Well, when Treebeard first meets Merry and Pippin he talks about being careful not to tell just anyone your real name. IIRC

[Butterbeer]

only because ... many mortals... died of old age in the attempt IIRC..

[jammi567]

[Butterbeer]

boy you make me laugh! (in a good way ) jammi!...

...er... long winded entish speak ... entish names being a story of days, weeks, months, years, centuries, ages of the world an' all !

best, BB

[jammi567]

oh, i see.

[Butterbeer]

it's like drinking whisky ....



... an aquired taste


Best BB

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by Landroval

Good observation - this goes against both UT and the letters; it almost calls into question just how "canonical" that quote is - seeing that it was written before the end of Lotr.

Uhm, I may be mistaken, I have to buy and read the book first, but I have got an impression that the notes were written on the margins of the published copy of the LOTR. We shall know soon for certain.

Originally Posted by Alcuin

The Nazgûl had no “will� of their own in matters concerning their instructions from Sauron. To the best of their abilities, they would carry out not only the letter of his instructions, but the malign spirit of them, too. That they could still make mistakes in these matters is demonstrated by the incident in “The Hunt for the Ring� in which the Nine wander about the Vales of Anduin, hunting fruitlessly for “Shire�, when it was on the other side of the Misty Mountains.

I think the best proof of their free will is the fact that Sauron threatened them after their unsuccessful trip up and down Anduin.
If they were zombies, then threatening them was like threatening to send your car to a junk-yard.(Olmer's words). But really, I think Sauron grew so angry this time, not only because of mistakes (after all they searched where he told them to search), but for lagging, wasting precious time, showing little initiative, being little enthusiastic, in general. And that shows they had more free will that one may suppose.

Originally Posted by Jammi

believe Sauron had to be focusing on them to be able to control them. so when they were serching for the Ring aroung Anduin, he was throrughly serching there because that's where he know it last was. once he realized it wasn't there, and gollum said 'shire' and 'baggins', he let the nazgul have their free will back because a) he had other things to focus on, and b) they're his most loyal servents, and so should be able to find it quickly and efficiantly. of course, once they got their will back, they also recovered their former fears etc. i think this is the best senario with the evidence we've got, both from UT and letters, as well as lotr itself.

I think it is wrong. Had they NO free will when they were searching in the Vales, WHY was Sauron angry at them later??? We know, there was no direct contact between Sauron and his nazgul: to send them directives, he had to use messengers (UT). So, they had their free will all right all the time.

I would not advise to rely to much on "no will of their own etc... " It was ONLY about the ownership of the One Ring. No nazgul was able to claim it, and had they found it, they would have brought it to Sauron. But does it mean they were enthusiastic and eager being sent like a small commando force into the wilderness, being obliged to travel for months, take care of their horses themselves, cross rivers, face dangers, walked undressed for 17 days, etc. etc. and all this hardship to find the ring for the Fool-Who-Has-Lost-It?? And the result would have led even to their worse enslavement?
The new quote shows that they were NOT enthusiastic and eager - they only feared Sauron.

Originally Posted by Alcuin

As an aside here, I believe that Christopher Tolkien has wondered in print why the Witch-king would have been unfamiliar with “Shire� and its locale. I think the answer is fairly straightforward. “Shire� was in fact the old royal demesne of the Kings of Arnor, given over to the halflings after it had become depopulated of Dúnedain with stipulations the hobbits continued to follow for 1400 years, 1000 of which were without a sitting king in Fornost. Had the Nazgûl left with instructions to find the old royal demesne, they would have headed straight for it: the Witch-king knew where that was. But “Shire� was a new one: he simply did not recognize the name, nor did he understand the association between the two.

I always wondered about the same thing.
I still think it s a gaping plothole in the UT. The WK may have not known the name "Shire", as it was local, but still "the land of the Halflings" should have rang a bell in his memory. Halflings are something of a curiosity. He had to know where lots of Halflings lived - his own troops have overrun the land in 1974, and he WAS King at Fornost, however briefly, so he had to think about supplies, taxes, etc.

Originally Posted by Landroval

Aragorn recognized the general effect against the "Mordor" - there is also a nice quote about Ugluk throwing the swords away as if they burned him . Now, with no runes but only graphical elements but still correctly identified - it is most likely that (at least) the swords of that design carry those anti-Mordor spells.

Anti-orcs effect was a side-effect or an extra spell laid on the blades. As I said many times, Aragorn failed to see the MAIN one - anti-Witch-King.

Originally Posted by Landroval

In one of the drafts, … Gandalf states that "… I must be told about that curious sword of yours, and how you knew the name of Elbereth".

I think this "curious" word, and the desire to ask the hobbit about the blades shows that Gandalf DID examine the blades and had NO IDEA what spell was on them. Come on, Gandalf (the wielder of Narya) had been peering at the Ruling Ring and didn't recognize EVEN that one!

Originally Posted by Landroval

There was plenty of time between the two battles - not to mention that the incident at the tower requested an even more special attention.

There are several possible scenarios leading to different conclusions here.

1. Suppose Sauron had no time to look at the blade attentively, if at all, and relied on the Mouth's report. The Mouth, examining the blade, was no wiser than Aragorn or Denethor, so he had no idea what he was letting his enemies take.
2. Suppose Sauron looked AND RECOGNIZED the spell on the blade. Then, the fact that he didn't destroy it, but gave it to the Mouth to show to Gandalf and Co., shows that he wasn't too concerned about the blade's safety. And for me, that means only one thing: the blade was deadly ONLY for the WITCH-KING (who was already killed), not for the other 8 nazgul - the same impression that I got from the new Tolkien quote I posted. And [CAB]was of the same opinion:

Originally Posted by CAB

I think the swords were almost certainly made exclusively for the Witch King (since there were no other Nazgul in Angmar) but would be just as effective against the other Nazgul. The impression that I get from the quote is that the Witch King was really only concerned for himself (which in the context of that quote could make it sound like the swords would only work on him alone).

Originally Posted by Landroval

] If that is true, I would like to reffer to a previous point: if these swords are the only one deadly to them, why would they leave them around, with guys like Glorfy and Gandie walking around?

The Wights repelled human grave robbers. G&G were not much interested in plundering the revered graves of the ancestors of the Edain, were they? G&G probably had no idea that there were potent swords in the Barrows.
Look, Glorfindel was MUCH concerned about Earnur's wish to go fight the WK. But he didn't tell him that he had to obtain a special sword to have any hope to win.
Neither did he go to the Barrow to fetch some swords for his allies before Fornost battle. And he had plenty of time to do it - about 350 years. NO, he didn't know. Neither did Erlond. I am sure of it.

Why didn't the nazgul destroy the blades? We know the WK broke one - by magic. But if there were dozens? Hundreds?

Originally Posted by CAB

Did every barrow (or at least every barrow with a wight) have the anti-Nazgul blades in them? How many were in each barrow?

Not every barrow had the blades, as there were quite ancient ones as well, but some recent ones might have held lots of blades.

Originally Posted by Alcuin

If you can swallow all this speculation, the second question becomes much easier. I have suggested that the folk of Cardolan went all over the West to find a solution to the problem of making the Nazgûl vulnerable to their weapons. This might have been the life-long pursuit of several learnéd men, and possibly with royal support.

Excellent speculation, Alcuin, I agree that central location of Cardolan must have meant a lot. ALSO they had Tharbad - one of the oldest Numenorean cities in ME, predating the Downfall, and even older Lond Daer Ened - Vinyalonde. There should have been libraries with ME chronicles of the Second Age still intact. A scholar from Cardolan might have dig out the know-how of making enchanted anti-nazgul swords as well as the IDENTITY of the Lord of the Nazgul. I believe they had his real name and used it in the spell.
.

Originally Posted by Alcuin

(Tom) might be the only living creature other than the Nazgûl themselves who remembered (the Barrow-Downs blades)

Exactly.

Originally Posted by CAB

We seem to have forgotten (and this applies to the Nazgul “semi-invincibility� also) about the “shock� that one gets when stabbing a Nazgul (or, at least the Witch King, and probably the others). Frodo doesn’t experience this, so the spell wasn’t the same (though, I suppose it could be merely similar, as you mentioned). I think that probably Frodo didn’t pick up a mystical sword, but rather a normal one. Being very old and non-mystical, the sword probably broke due to brittleness.

ALL swords shatter that pierce a nazgul. The fact that the sword shattered on a wight doesn't tell us anything about the blade- only about a similar spell. As for the Black Shadow - it was specific for nazgul and doesn't even necessitate a direct contact with them - Faramir got it without hitting any.

Originally Posted by Alcuin

This passage tells us several things. First of all, there were “faithful among the Dúnedain of Cardolan�. This kind of phrasing “faithful among…� is also used concerning the Númenóreans at the end of their island kingdom, and if we combine this with Faramir’s almost off-hand remark to Frodo that “‘It is not said that evil arts were ever practiced in Gondor, or that the Nameless One was ever named in honor there…’� we might easily draw the conclusion that part of the dissension among the Dúnedain of Arnor might have come from some of the Dúnedain worshipping the Dark, as had the Black Númenóreans of old.

My, Alcuin, I think nobody EVER has commented about "faithful" in this quote. I think you are dead right here.

As well as you are right about 2 reasons for sending the Wights to Tyrn Gorthad (to secure the Barrows against the remaining Dunedain and to deal a blow to their pride. But the third reason must have been the blades kept there: the Witch-King knew it - see Roccondil's quote

Originally Posted by Tolkien

Readers Companion: . But above all the timid and terrified Bearer had resisted him, had dared to strike at him with an enchanted sword made by his own enemies long ago for his destruction. Narrowly it had missed him. How he had come by it – save in the Barrows of Cardolan. Then he was in some way mightier than the Barrow-wight; and he called on Elbereth, a name of terror to the Nazgûl. He was then in league with the High Elves of the Havens.

[Butterbeer]

c'mon Alcuin post something!!

[Alcuin]

Elrond may have revealed not only the WK's NATURE (a nazgul), but also his REAL NAME. I argued in another thread, that whoever the Witch-King may have been in the Second Age, Elrond and Glorfindel likely knew his identity, but kept it secret - very bad PR for the Line of Elros to have the Chief nazgul among them.

Hm. I had never thought about that, Gordis. To determine who this was, the Wise would have had to consider who had lived “beyond his years,� as it were: perhaps an uncle to Tar-Atanamir, who first refused to lay down his life.

Imagine this: “I’m, tellin’ you, Atanamir, if you fight it – fight death, and you do it with everything you’ve got, You’ll win out! Look at me – I’m you father’s brother, and I should be dead, but I’m not. And do you know why? Because I refused to die…� and Tar-Atanamir believed him, and rebelled. The embassy from Valinor urging the Númenóreans not to try to live forever, and to respect the Ban of the Valar, was sent during Tar-Atanamir’s reign. If there were a well-known, long-lived but “un-aged� Númenórean nobleman (or two… or three…) in Tar-Atanamir’s court, hm? do you suppose those might have been the three Númenórean of the Nine? And how exactly would anyone know that three of the Nine were Númenóreans anyhow? “...it is said that among those whom [Sauron] ensnared with the Nine Rings three were great lords of Númenórean race� – Silmarillion, “Akallabêth�

There is no textual evidence for the Wise knowing the identity of the three Númenórean Úlairi except for the fact that they knew they were Númenórean – and by the fact that they knew the name of Khamûl, who was an Easterling. If they knew Khamûl’s name, is it such a stretch that they would know the names of some of the others?

But there is yet another possibility that you have not considered. We have still not discussed Tom Bombadil, who seemed awfully interested in the Black Riders when Frodo and his companions recounted to him their adventure to that point, and who himself selected the long, leaf-shaped knives – and nothing else (except the brooch for Goldberry) – for the hobbits from the wraith’s usurped hoard. Unfortunately, falling back on the argument that, “Bombadil knew, and he told the Dúnedain smiths,� is not a good argument: we know very little about Bombadil and what he knew.

I suppose the best bet is to assume that during the Second Age, the Númenóreans were able to determine that three of their own had been ensnared by Sauron to become Nazgûl. It is entirely possible that they did not know how this was accomplished: there is no evidence that Ar-Pharazôn, for instance, knew about the Ruling Ring (or he would have coveted it). (There is good reasoning the Númenóreans were unaware of the existence of the Rings of Power during the Second Age: see Michael Martinez’ essay, “Shhh! It's a Secret Ring!�) The Nazgûl first appeared around II 2251, during the reign of Tar-Ancalimon, son of Tar-Atanamir. (Appendix B, “The Tale of Years�, says that Tar-Atanamir “takes the scepter� that year; more reliable are probably the dates in “The Line of Elros� in Unfinished Tales.) They would have had the best opportunity to identify the three Dúnedain who fell to Sauron’s schemes. If they were counselors of the king, and they realized that one of the Nazgûl was of royal blood and close to the king’s forefathers, they had every good reason to hide the fact.

Originally Posted by Gordi

What was the WK's real name? no one knew. Did they know he was a nazgul? Hardly.

I think I’d like to argue here that Elrond, CÃ*rdan, and Glorfindel, who had all participated in the War of the Last Alliance (assuming Glorfindel arrive in the Second Age) and were “in the know,â€� as well as the rulers and sages of Arnor and Gondor, had a reasonably good chance of knowing who the three Númenórean Nazgûl were. Again, they knew Khamûl’s name, which doesn’t prove anything, but it might be easier to get the name of a Dúnadan than of an Easterling in these circumstances. And what did the Nazgûl call one another? (“Hey, Number Four! Have you seen Number Six?â€� “Yeah, he had to do a number two.â€� “Ooh, that’s disgusting!â€� And the smell…)

But your quote, Gordis, indicates that at least at first, they did not even realize this was a Nazgûl. Did they find a lock of his hair, cut off, perhaps, in battle? Suppose it took 50, 60 years to determine that the Witch-king was a Nazgûl. Would that be long enough to satisfy the statement that, “it was not known until later that he was indeed the chief of the Ringwraiths,� with the proviso that they only knew he was in fact a Ringwraith without knowing which one? And no matter how they learned the name – from Elrond, old records of their own, or Rumpelstiltskin – they then knew who and what he was.

-|-

Added in an edit:

Originally Posted by Gordis

A scholar from Cardolan might have dig out the know-how of making enchanted anti-nazgul swords as well as the IDENTITY of the Lord of the Nazgul. I believe they had his real name and used it in the spell.

I had never thought of that.

[Butterbeer]

so much for the concise summary heh guys?

so .... i gotta go read all this heh to join in on the best gig at the moot in many many months?

ok ...


Good debate btw, BB ...been a while since we had a good one!

best, BB

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by jammi567

if they blades were for just the witch king, where would Elrond get the name from? we have no indication of the human kings being famous in life, and by the time they were famous (as nazgul) i have the feeling that the name would've been lost...

Oh no, Jammi, they were quite famous in their life time.

Silm:Men proved easier to ensnare. Those who used the Nine Rings became mighty in their day, kings, sorcerers, and warriors of old. They obtained glory and great wealth, yet it turned to their undoing. They had, as it seemed, unending life, yet life became unendurable to them. They could walk, if they would, unseen by all eyes in this world beneath the sun, and they could see things in worlds invisible to mortal men; but too often they beheld only the phantoms and delusions of Sauron. And one by one, sooner or later, according to their native strength and to the good or evil of their wills in the beginning, they fell under the thraldom of the ring that they bore and under the domination of the One, which was Sauron's. And they became for ever invisible save to him that wore the Ruling Ring, and they entered into the realm of shadows. The Nazgûl were they, the Ringwraiths, the Enemy's most terrible servants; darkness went with them, and they cried with the voices of death.

So
1 They became mighty (those who were not already mighty, and it is reasonable to believe that Sauron tended to give his Rings to mighty ones - kings and princes- not stable boys).
2.they got "enending life"
3 They got the ability to enter the Spirit world and do magic
4 And only then, " one by one, sooner or later" they became wraiths.

Now, Alcuin can tell the story better, but there are ALL reasons to believe that the Witch-King was one of the Royal family of Numenor (a Prince, according to Alcuin, or even a King, according to Olmer).

ANYWAY the Witch King most likely was Elrond's relative, descendant of his brother Elros, King of Numenor, and a MUCH closer relative than Aragorn and even Elendil.

[jammi567]

yes, but where and/or where would they have had chance to learn their real names. if you look at post 83 (mine), i give my reasons why it's much more likely, in fact certain, that the blades were anti-nazgul, not just anti-witchking.

[Butterbeer]

Gor:

but there are ALL reasons to believe that the Witch-King was one of the Royal family of Numenor (a Prince, according to Alcuin, or even a King, according to Olmer).

is he thus potentially a rightful heir?


..what if he got control of a Palantir, such as the one in Isengard? would he be able to claim the right to it over sauron? (forgetting all the rings / Sauron stuff as an aside for a moment? )

heh?

[Alcuin]

Originally Posted by Gordis

Alcuin can tell the story better, but there are ALL reasons to believe that the Witch-King was one of the Royal family of Numenor (a Prince, according to Alcuin, or even a King, according to Olmer).

I wrote an essay on this, “Origins of the Nazgûl and the Downfall of Númenor�.

[Alcuin]

Originally Posted by Butterbeer

Gor:

is he thus potentially a rightful heir?


..what if he got control of a Palantir, such as the one in Isengard? would he be able to claim the right to it over sauron? ...

No, those were a gift to Elendil, who was the heir of the Lords of Andúnië. The Witch-king was from the House of Elros.

But I suspect he saw himself as a “rightful heir,� and that he probably believed he was better suited to be the ruler of the exiled Númenóreans than the House of Elendil. His status as a potential king whose elder brother became king instead might have been one of the ingredients in his downfall.

[Butterbeer]

Alcuin:

There is no textual evidence for the Wise knowing the identity of the three Númenórean Úlairi except for the fact that they knew they were Númenórean

Then just what prey Alcuin are we here for if not to discuss this?

Even historians have to have ideas and make shapes out of ideas, events and such known knowledge as is available ...


... how are we different?

best, BB

[jammi567]

very good point butterbeer, and in fact, that's what we've been mainly doing throught the majority of this thread.