Why did the Ring betray Isildur?

[Olmer]

Originally Posted by Jon S.

Personally, I believe the Ring operated akin to a computer program as opposed to possessing sentience but I understand others feel differently.

Totally agree with you. It was also my thinking that the ring was a very crafty
device with complicated programming, but in no way with presence of sentience.
You can’t even compare it to a dog, because dogs are having some intellect. The Ring does not.
If you will look on most obvious abilities of the Ring, it will be:
1. to attract a potential ring-bearer ( Beats me, but I don't see the clewer reason in making a such creative way for your own destruction!)
2. to dispatch the whereabout of it to the Dark Forces.
3. to suck the life force out of the ring - bearer (Gollum, Bilbo, Frodo) turning him into the shell without his own will.
4. to establish mental connection between Sauron and the ring-bearer.
We have none evidence about this fabled magic power of the Ring, which gives the wielder “to rule them all�. Even the maker and owner himself has been overtaken by the plain mortal without any magic’s enhancement.
Judging by abovementioned characteristic, one could say that the Ring is a some kind of powerful computerized bio-magnetic transmitter, probably, working on couple miligramms of uranium (this explains the exhaustion of the bearers). Nothing magical, just different technology.

The whole book was written as a perception of things from hobbits point of view, and what for them looked like magic, for more advance race, as Elves, was just natural way of life . Similar to the perception on our use of mobil phone by people from a few cenuries ago.

By the way. Thanks for the link. Most interesting. Just need to find the time to read it all.
And welcome to the Moot! Hang around!

[Butterbeer]

[QUOTE=Nurvingiel]Excellent point Val! Aw crap there's practically nothing left to discuss. I wanted a good discussion in this thread.
(from page 1)


as my grandma sometimes used to say, "its good to be wrong sometimes" - it'd always struck me as an odd saying mind you

going backto page 1 : i think the ring did deliberatly "betray" Isildur, although i really can't see how "betray" could mean anything in this situation: because Isildur may be wearing the ring but is not yet the ringlord, or the ring does not yet (if ever??) see him as its master, therefore it could not betray isludir, as it was acting (whether from malice and hatred of him IIsludur), or from its own will -being in part that of Sauron's influence on its design etc) actually being faithful to its master (i.e. Sauron):


or just trying to kill him or escape? I don't think ilsudur could have useed the ring for good, but the ring may have known that in time ilsudir's will would be strong for it (in terms of controlling him rather than him controlling it)- though the ring would still have changed corrupted and altered Isuldir either way over time

boy this is a good topic and don't know whrer to start: so aplogies if act as a DR who in this (time distortion ref: topics and points nas already in the contuinum) and work through the htread as and when i havethe time - which i don't just now - gotta go.

[Jon S.]

Originally Posted by Olmer

By the way. Thanks for the link. Most interesting. Just need to find the time to read it all.
And welcome to the Moot! Hang around!

You're very welcome and thank you, too. I will.

[Nurvingiel]

Well it looks like I didn't have to worry about the content of this thread at all! There have been some very excellent posts in here, thanks guys.

I agree with you about the Ring being like a computer program Jon S. I think it is a very advanced program, with some reasonable artificial intelligence. IOW it was "programmed" to respond certain ways in certain situations, and have some limited decision-making abilities based on what it knows about its surroundings.

[CrazySquirrel]

So there were no orcs at all? Galadriel and Elrong ambushed poor Isildur, done him in and moreover lost the ring in the process? Bad Bad Witch of Dwimordeme.

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by CrazySquirrel

So there were no orcs at all? Galadriel and Elrong ambushed poor Isildur, done him in and moreover lost the ring in the process? Bad Bad Witch of Dwimordeme.

It is only Olmer's POV. It looks like nobody shares it here

[CrazySquirrel]

Originally Posted by gordis

It is only Olmer's POV. It looks like nobody shares it here

Just a thought, perhaps Sauron (and the other bad guys like Wikkie) shared this POV on Galadriel and Elrond also, therefore were not looking for the ring for so long before Gollum told Sau about it?

[Olmer]

Originally Posted by gordis

It is only Olmer's POV. It looks like nobody shares it here

Nobody shares or nobody DARES?
It's scary thought, is not it? Because all this Virgin Mary's Galadriel image goes kaka.

[Butterbeer]

Originally Posted by Olmer

Nobody shares or nobody DARES?
It's scary thought, is not it? Because all this Virgin Mary's Galadriel image goes kaka.

I don't find it scary: just extremely unlikely: what then in your opinion had changed in Galdriel over time when Frodo offers her the ring in Lothlorien? (and anyway it's totally in her power to take by force if she wills for whatever reason)


Quote: carazy squirrel: So there were no orcs at all? Galadriel and Elrong ambushed poor Isildur, done him in and moreover lost the ring in the process? Bad Bad Witch of Dwimordeme.

Crazysquirrel that sounds so like like a 'pulp ficion' episode it cracks me up (samuel L jackson and J travolota, guns and stylised attitude, misconceoptions and total plot-friendly cock-ups)

[Olmer]

Originally Posted by Butterbeer

I don't find it scary: just extremely unlikely: what then in your opinion had changed in Galdriel over time when Frodo offers her the ring in Lothlorien? (and anyway it's totally in her power to take by force if she wills for whatever reason.

She did not want to HAVE it. She wanted to HIDE it without being pinpointed as a keeper of the ring, probably, on some neutral land, like hobbit's hole or the Big River. Her reasons for it gordis described very visual.

[Gordis]

I can't say I dare not believe it, I just can't, especially concerning Elrond's part. I think it was just a stroke of good chance for the Elves that an orc attack and the Ring's betrayal solved their biggest problem. Was it Eru's intervention as Gandalf suggested when speaking of Bilbo's finding the Ring?

But you have overlooked a very good point:

Originally Posted by CrazySquirrel

Just a thought, perhaps Sauron (and the other bad guys like Wikkie) shared this POV on Galadriel and Elrond also, therefore were not looking for the ring for so long before Gollum told Sau about it?

Sauron must have understood that Galadriel and Elrond had reasons to wish Isildur's death. I think his reconstruction of the events was wery similar to Olmer's. And he surely supposed that after killing Isildur, the Elves had hidden the Ring in one of their dungeons.

[Butterbeer]

Originally Posted by Olmer

She did not want to HAVE it. She wanted to HIDE it without being pinpointed as a keeper of the ring, probably, on some neutral land, like hobbit's hole or the Big River. Her reasons for it gordis described very visual.

she was undeniably Tempted! Is she little miss goody shoes now?
how elven wise is that to want to hide it in a hobbit hole with the nine abroad and knocking at the gaffer's door? unless they were moonlighting and selling Life Insurance?

If you refer to the wedding ring etc i must say Gordis has a knack for very visual description

[Butterbeer]

Originally Posted by gordis

I can't say I dare not believe it, I just can't, especially concerning Elrond's part. I think it was just a stroke of good chance for the Elves that an orc attack and the Ring's betrayal solved their biggest problem. Was it Eru's intervention as Gandalf suggested when speaking of Bilbo's finding the Ring?

But you have overlooked a very good point:

Sauron must have understood that Galadriel and Elrond had reasons to wish Isildur's death. I think his reconstruction of the events was wery similar to Olmer's. And he surely supposed that after killing Isildur, the Elves had hidden the Ring in one of their dungeons.

at what point in time are we talking here?: at the time of the ring in the river sauron could have thought or percieved very little, for sure he may well have thought somewhat along the lines of Olmers's conjecture later, but at the time Smeagol is caught and tortured in Mordor, the ring is a) calling out to him and b) he learns it was found in the river by gollum and potentially is in 'shire' with 'Baggins', therefore not and never had been in the keeping of the elves?
I agree it's reasonable for sauron to have copnsidered that Isudir having the one would be a definite potential problem for the Elves specifically for the bearers or owners of the 3 (at this time Cirdan? Galad and Elrond???)

regarding bilbo finding the ring, the pre-ordained themes are heavily hinted at aren't they, but ERU? Possibly: i prefer to leave that as an aside, purely conjecture or it devalues the whole story: if ERU wants to intervene directly the result would be a given - agreed?

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by Butterbeer

at what point in time are we talking here?: at the time of the ring in the river sauron could have thought or percieved very little, for sure he may well have thought somewhat along the lines of Olmers's conjecture later, but at the time Smeagol is caught and tortured in Mordor
...regarding bilbo finding the ring, the pre-ordained themes are heavily hinted at aren't they, but ERU?

Sauron reappeared in TA 1050, by 2063 he was surely re-embodied, as he were able to flee from Gandalf. And Gollum was caught in 3007. So Sauron had at least 1000 years to think on ring's fate.
...I don't insist on ERU, make it just fate...

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

Initially I don't thonk this was the main thing on Sauron's mind. He was weak, and few knew he had survived the Last Alliance although I think placing himself in Mirkwood was clever. In UT it states that Sauron's servants were searching the Gladden and this was the reason Saruman decided to force him out of Dol Guldur in TA 2941, but by this time he knew that the Ring had been found by someone. I think he found out the creatures that were living near the Gladden were hobbits because of Khamul. There is also a chance that Gollum was found in Mirkwood by the servants of Khamul. In FotR Gandalf states that he followed Bilbo to Dale and then came back through Mirkwood. IMO Khamuls servants bought him to Mordor where he was tortured for information on the Ring and it was Sauron's lucky day when he realised that Gollum was infact the hobbit that had bourne the Ring. The rest can be gathered from UT and LotR. I think that Sauron had it in mind to search for the Ring when he placed himself in Mirkwood but his intial thought was to gather his strength back to him.

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by Telcontar_Dunedain

Initially I don't thonk this was the main thing on Sauron's mind. He was weak, and few knew he had survived the Last Alliance although I think placing himself in Mirkwood was clever. ...
I think that Sauron had it in mind to search for the Ring when he placed himself in Mirkwood but his intial thought was to gather his strength back to him.

Yes, Sauron was weak initially and boosted his strength in the absence of the One by collecting some of the other rings of power: dwarven and nazgul ones. He would have loved to get some of the Three as well, if possible.
I agree with you, Telcontar_Dunedain, that placing himself in Mirkwood was very clever. I imagine Sauron sitting in his stronghold at Dol Guldur surrounded by spiders and acting like a spider himself : waiting for any ringbearer to pass near. Why has he chosen this location? IMHO, because Dol Guldur controlled the main roads: 1. Carrock crossing and the Forest road - the way Dwarves traditionally took on the way from the Blue mountains to the Iron Hills; 2. The North-South road along the Anduin (the one a nazgul had to take if he wanted to go from the South-East to Angmar). Also he was not that far from the Redhorn pass - the way from Imladris to Lorien- the way Elrond or Galadriel often took. Remember Celebrian's story? 2509 - "CelebrÃ*an, journeying to Lórien, is waylaid in the Redhorn Pass, and receives a poisoned wound." I think Sauron made a trap on the Pass leading from Lorien to Rivendell in hope to capture either Galadriel or Elrond. Celebrian had no ring, but she must have been mistaken for her mother by silly orcs.
And of course we cannot rule out the possibility that Sauron sensed the nearness of the ring, somehow.

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

Good point about the Roads. Also it was near to the Elven Kingom in Mirkwood, near Lorien, two strongholds that had been generally untroubled in recent times. The mere present of Dol Guldur must have troubled their harts, Galadriel especially.

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by Telcontar_Dunedain

Good point about the Roads. Also it was near to the Elven Kingom in Mirkwood, near Lorien, two strongholds that had been generally untroubled in recent times. The mere present of Dol Guldur must have troubled their harts, Galadriel especially.

It is strange though, why didn't the White Counsil take action against Dol Guldur much earlier - millenia earlier, while Sauron was weak? At first (1100)they perceived a Dark shadow, why not send a host of elves? Then since 2060 they thought it may have been one of the nazgul. Is it so usual to have a nazgul living in the neighborhood? But the White counsil did absolutely nothing. They started to discuss taking action in 2850 only when Gandalf learned for certain it was Sauron. Why?

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

I don't think that's true. I think Gandalf and Elrond pushed for an attack much earlier, but Saruman dissuaded the Council from taking action. Only when Gandalf learned that it was Sauron could Saruman no longer take no action.

[Gordis]

So you suggest Saruman was a traitor in his heart almost from the beginning?