Increased Islamic Influence in European Nations

[Lizra]

I translated it as "muslims aren't as "fair" as christians".

Now...is being "fair" good? or is it "smart"? Could it realistically be both?

[The Gaffer]

Well, in the same way that a right-wing person does not, IMO, have views which are as "fair", "good" or even as "smart" as mine , it is always possible, and indeed essential, to exercise discriminatory judgment as to the validity of any set of views or beliefs.

It is therefore quite possible to argue that Christianity is "better" than Islam from a given point of view.

But what you really must do is be clear that people are people first, before their beliefs, and they are not the same as their belief system (thank God). Just because it is written in some book doesn't mean that everyone who subscribes to that religion robotically implements its agenda 24/7. Even right-wing people are charitable and kind-hearted, as they share our common traits as humans.

The other thing to throw into the mix is that any such critique must necessarily be based upon an interpretation of that belief system. No doubt many scholars of Islam would disagree with this particular one.

Finally, we have to consider the historical context of conflict and prejudice between Christians and Muslims over the past 1,000 years or so (and even the last 4) and where these kinds of interpretations sit within that context.

Do they result in greater or less understanding and harmony between groups? What would be the effects of such statements amongst those groups and others.

One must assume that the authors are aware of this context, and therefore what the likely outcomes are.

Wankers.

[Lizra]

"Wankers"

[The Gaffer]

Sorry, got a bit cross there. :contrite:

[Rían]

Originally Posted by The Gaffer

And the point is... Muslims aren't as good as Christians, or what?

Oh, Lordy ....

Well, sadly, it seems to me the point is that if you're a Christian, you'd better not make any comment AT ALL about ANYTHING in ANY another worldview that seems to be deficient or even wrong, or you'll get criticized for looking down on others and being hateful and intolerant and judgemental. But OTOH, be prepared to have your Christian worldview blasted, for example, for "looking down on" homosexuals (which it DOES NOT, thankyouverymuch), and the criticizer getting praised.

*sigh*

ALL inky was doing was providing a very interesting article for us to read and think about. It referenced Islamic scriptures, Islamic official procedures (in hospitals), and observed general population trends on the subject of helping people of different faiths. It compared them to Christian scriptures and official Christian procedures (in hospitals) on the same subject.

So what's your problem with that?

How are we to make judgements on a particular worldview, unless we turn to its official scriptures and procedures and statements from officials and generally observed behaviors of those that adhere to it? Can't we say we don't like an aspect of a worldview without being accused of looking down on the people involved? Again, I don't see people hesitating to criticize Christianity's views on, for example, homosexuality (and you guys keep getting many of them wrong, btw). Why can't a Christian criticize views in another worldview that he/she doesn't like?

What's with this double standard?

I found Inky's article very interesting, and I'm glad to see the ideas changing in some areas of Islam. Did you guys read the posts in the tsunami thread where I posted the email from the Indonesian ladies? That's a first-hand report from an Indonesian lady in Aceh, and she reports intimidation by Muslims against receiving aid from non-Muslims, and passes on an email from a Muslim lady who is speaking out against it. Shall I not say anything about that because it might be perceived as looking down on Muslims, or is it OK to say I think that's wrong and hurtful and I wish they would change their ways and I'm glad to see that some people have changed?

[Insidious Rex]

Whose criticizing "Christianity's" point of view on homosexuality? Personally, Im just criticizing those people who choose to discriminate against homosexuals. Doesnt matter how they justify it. Whether its god or secular reasons. Do keep in mind there are PLENTY of christians who DONT think we should be descriminating against gays. Its about what the INDIVIDUAL thinks. Not about blanket religion bashing or promoting. Yet many christian INDIVIDUALS DO bash Islam as a whole by saying things like oh Christians are MUCH more loving and giving people then those Muslims. Is THAT ok?

[Insidious Rex]

Originally Posted by RÃ*an

Did you guys read the posts in the tsunami thread where I posted the email from the Indonesian ladies? That's a first-hand report from an Indonesian lady in Aceh, and she reports intimidation by Muslims against receiving aid from non-Muslims, and passes on an email from a Muslim lady who is speaking out against it. Shall I not say anything about that because it might be perceived as looking down on Muslims, or is it OK to say I think that's wrong and hurtful and I wish they would change their ways and I'm glad to see that some people have changed?

EDIT: You just added this after I replied to your first part.

Frankly, I found that "email" kind of dubious. It seemed very much like a plant. Especially some of the horrible wording in it. But I have no proof of this so I wasnt going to say anything directly. But it just seemed like a propaganda piece. Id love to get some background on the author and where she is from and why she is writing a western aid worker in a way that seems to be addressing all muslims. When was there mass cheering in the streets of Jakarta after 9/11?

[Rían]

Originally Posted by Insidious Rex

Whose criticizing "Christianity's" point of view on homosexuality?

You'll find many examples in the gay/les thread.

Personally, Im just criticizing those people who choose to discriminate against homosexuals. Doesnt matter how they justify it. Whether its god or secular reasons.

If I'm discriminating against homosexuals, then you're discriminating against brothers who want to marry sisters, and men who want to marry young children, etc.

Do keep in mind there are PLENTY of christians who DONT think we should be descriminating against gays.

I don't think we should discriminate against gays

Its about what the INDIVIDUAL thinks. Not about blanket religion bashing or promoting. Yet many christian INDIVIDUALS DO bash Islam as a whole by saying things like oh Christians are MUCH more loving and giving people then those Muslims. Is THAT ok?

My complaint was with Gaffer's reaction to Inky's article. Gaffer has since toned it down and explained more accurately what he thought, but the very fact that he had that initial reaction just set me off with its unfairness.

What in that article was saying "Muslims aren't as good as Christians, or what?" Why can't aspects of worldviews be compared and evaluated? I don't see wholesale condemnation of Muslims in that article, do you? I don't think bashing a religion as a whole is right, but I think it's very valid to comment on its official scriptures and statements and practices.

[Rían]

Originally Posted by Insidious Rex

Especially some of the horrible wording in it.

It was translated from Indonesian, by an Indonesian lady with limited English skills. And she was NOT writing a Western aid worker. This email was forwarded to the INDONESIAN lady that works with CHF to distribute food to poor Muslims.

[brownjenkins]

Originally Posted by RÃ*an

What in that article was saying "Muslims aren't as good as Christians, or what?" Why can't aspects of worldviews be compared and evaluated? I don't see wholesale condemnation of Muslims in that article, do you? I don't think bashing a religion as a whole is right, but I think it's very valid to comment on its official scriptures and statements and practices.

the problem is the "official" part... most christians would take offense if i took the views of say, the pope, and projected them upon the entirety of christianity

as you well know, many christians are more different from one another than they might be from a jew or a buddhist... i think the same can probably be said of muslims

in reality, there is no such thing as "muslim"... so referring to them in any general way is mistaken... the same could be said for "christian"

better to say "this person believes..." than "this muslim believes..."

remember, we need not be definined by our belief system!!

[Rían]

But brownie, I'm not judging individual Muslims, I'm making evaluations on a specific tenet from their official scriptures and leaders and public policies.

And what really set me off (sorry I got so mad, Gaffer - your next post was much more like you, but that first one really got to me) was that from this straightforward article that did NOT bash Muslims as a whole, but instead referred to official scripture and leaders' positions, and official policies of Muslim hospitals, Gaffer (who is very kind and reasonable) came to the conclusion somehow that the "point" was that Christians were better than Muslims

[Rían]

And what I'm REALLY bummed about is that the stars in my avvy don't sparkle anymore, since I got DSL and I think they're pretty when they sparkle ...

and I don't feel well, and I'm cranky, and I hurt, and I have an extremely busy afternoon and evening lined up, and it's hard to handle a wheelchair in the rain (I need two hands to lift it out of the back of the car so I can't hold an umbrella, and I need two hands to lift my son into the wheelchair so I can't hold an umbrella), and it just makes me sad that it seems that there's a double standard going on. And it makes me sad that there's this terrible tragedy going on, and people are comparing aid numbers, and using this as a chance to take potshots at countries.

And like you, I'm happiest when others are happy, and they're not right now.

Oh well.
I think I'll go cry for a bit.

[Insidious Rex]

Originally Posted by RÃ*an

If I'm discriminating against homosexuals, then you're discriminating against brothers who want to marry sisters, and men who want to marry young children, etc.

want me to give you the reasons why its ok to discriminate against adults who want to have sex with children too young to give consent again?

I don't think we should discriminate against gays

then you shouldnt.

What in that article was saying "Muslims aren't as good as Christians, or what?"

well thats the exact same vibe I got from it too. it just came off as smug and sort of like looking down on muslims. its just a legitimate feeling some people got from it. And i was especially disturbed by that being posted in the tsunami thread where it DOESNT matter what religion (or color or education level etc) we are talking about. I just dont see how talking about how muslims arent as nice as christians contributes to the rescue effert at all.

[Insidious Rex]

Originally Posted by RÃ*an

And what I'm REALLY bummed about is that the stars in my avvy don't sparkle anymore, since I got DSL

they do on my screen.

And it makes me sad that there's this terrible tragedy going on, and people are comparing aid numbers, and using this as a chance to take potshots at countries.

I find this disgusting too. And have had some tyraids about it on other message boards already... so yer not alone there. Lets JUST HELP them!

[Rían]

Originally Posted by Insidious Rex

want me to give you the reasons why its ok to discriminate against adults who want to have sex with children too young to give consent again?

Is this discrimination, IYO?

then you shouldnt.

I don't

well thats the exact same vibe I got from it too. it just came off as smug and sort of like looking down on muslims. its just a legitimate feeling some people got from it. And i was especially disturbed by that being posted in the tsunami thread where it DOESNT matter what religion (or color or education level etc) we are talking about. I just dont see how talking about how muslims arent as nice as christians contributes to the rescue effert at all.

OK, I guess some nice people came off with that impression. To me, it seemed to be a valid looking-at of an official aspect of Islam (as opposed to individual Muslims), and comparing it to an official aspect of Christianity (as opposed to individual Christians), and what was really encouraging is that that aspect in Islam is apparently undergoing some change among some Muslims. I didn't think it did a wholesale smearing of all individual Muslims at all. I think the author was entirely accurate in using the word "many", and supported the use of this word - he/she did NOT use "all" or even "most". And again, things like comparing the official hospital policies are pretty informative, IMO.

I think perhaps it was posted in the tsunami thread because of the "Good Samaritan" aspect of the tragedy - the fact that so many countries, with all sorts of differences, were contributing aid, and some Muslims were saying to not take aid from non-Muslims, and others were trying to change this.

[The Gaffer]

Sharon, I'm sorry that my response got you down; It sounds like you've got your hands full at the moment. Keep the heid and it'll soon be spring!

I'm also surprised that you didn't understand why I reacted that way.

By and large, it's not the facts quoted in the article I have a problem with but the tone and emphasis.

Here are some examples:

racism is one evil Muslims cannot be accused of

implying that there are others they can be accused of.

Muslim thinkers have a deficient view of man

Note the use of "many", not "some" or "a few".

the stinginess of the Saudi Arabian government

Quoting the case of the Saudi Arabian government to characterise Muslims as a whole is hardly justifiable, especially since they are loathed by many Muslims worldwide. One might as well contrast the US response with the amount of money spent invading Iraq.

Seventh Day Adventist hospitals healing Buddhists, Hindus, pagans or even atheists, and Saudi-sponsored hospitals in some parts of Africa treating patients for free only if they convert to Islam

I don't need to restate the comment about selective examples. Or even comment on the mass conversion of especially colonial subjects by Christian groups throughout the past centuries.

where a Western form of Islam is emerging

The savage, once he has spent long enough in contact with more advanced peoples, begins to develop more civilised views.

Originally Posted by RÃ*an

And it makes me sad that there's this terrible tragedy going on, and people are comparing aid numbers, and using this as a chance to take potshots at countries.

Me too! And this article was doing precisely this, except using religions instead of countries. I hope I've explained enough my reasons for believing this.

As I pointed out, you have to question the motivation and timing of the authors and, by extension, Inked for posting it in this thread AND in another one. Is there a word for the wanton copying and pasting of diatribes from other web sites onto bulletin boards?

I also agree that Christians should be at liberty to say what they like. However, they should be prepared to take the heat if what they say is unacceptable.

[Lizra]

Originally Posted by The Gaffer

Is there a word for the wanton copying and pasting of diatribes from other web sites onto bulletin boards?

Should be! "Propaposter"? (propaganda+poster) or "cut and patsy"....

[The Gaffer]

Heh! I like the latter!

[Draken]

How about 'agit-poster' - anyone remember 'agit-pop'?

[Draken]

Originally Posted by Artanis

Hmm. I think it is unwise not to be interested. Whether we like it or not, Islam is a part of Europe now. Don't you want to know the people you are living with, in your own country? Are you not at least curious?

Nope. There are too many interesting things in the world for me to waste precious time on religions.

Originally Posted by Artanis

Turkey will soon become a part of the EU. I know that they must be accepted first, but if not this time then the next ... with their 67 million people they will probably soon become the largest country within EU with respect to population. I'd very much like to hear people's thoughts on this, both Europeans and non-Europeans.

Not the largest as Germany's population is over 80 million. I imagine France for one will very much welcome Turkey - as Turkey has had a ban on headscarves in public buildings for some 20 years, something that is not often commented on.