Bill Ferny: Man or Hobbit - Page 5

Haradrim · 08-29-2004, 05:39 PM

Well lets take orcs. Orcs you could say are a branch of elves. They were twisted adn changed. They are just twisted evil branches off of elves. But you would never call an orc an elf. When orcs were first made you might call them elves because they werte just made but now after so many many many years they are different because of time and the slow changes they have. Orcs are a different race of elves the same way hobbits used to be short hairy footed men but now after thoudans of years they are a new species.

BeardofPants · 08-29-2004, 05:59 PM

Actually, Haradrim, orks were twisted from Men, and can be considered to be of the race of Men as well.....

It's no good; Tolkien says Hobbits are Men, there's no getting around it. Yer can argue 'til yer frickin' blue, BUT, the fact of the matter is:

Tolkien says they're Men.
Tolkien didn't believe in evolution.

Again: Haradrim, pay attention:

"Abnormally for humans...."

Ergo, hobbits ARE human. Tolkien says as much. Why can't it get through your undersized cranium?

There's no blurring of the lines - it's that frickin' simple. Bloody 'ell.

*BoP ducks and covers as the ensuing debate roars over her head*

Haradrim · 08-29-2004, 06:26 PM

Im just going to bow out because I will never change and neither will you so I say we shake hands and I will bow out.

No hard feelings?

BeardofPants · 08-29-2004, 06:28 PM

Believe what you want, I don't care. I'm just going with what Tolkien said. ::shrug::

Haradrim · 08-29-2004, 06:30 PM

i know but i interpret it differently thats all.

Attalus · 08-29-2004, 06:34 PM

You know, Haradim, you would get more respect if you were able to actually quote things that support your ideas instead of just boldly asserting some impossible, unsupportable thesis. If a certain learned Tolkienist of my acquaintance sees this, he would probably say something like, maybe in some other books, but not in the writings of J.R.R. Tolkien. We are not writing fanfic, here, we are trying to understand Tolkien's world better.

Lefty Scaevola · 08-29-2004, 06:56 PM

Are the sheltered Gentlemen here unfamiler with trolls or subcategories thereof, such as:
http://www.winternet.com/~mikelr/flame78.html

Haradrim · 08-29-2004, 07:54 PM

I actually dont know how to quote and I am truly sorry if people are getting mad at me because that is the complerte opposite of my intent. I dont mean to upset anyone. I am sorry.

Attalus · 08-29-2004, 08:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Haradrim

I actually dont know how to quote and I am truly sorry if people are getting mad at me because that is the complerte opposite of my intent. I dont mean to upset anyone. I am sorry.

That's okay. Poor guy, I'm not mad. jist giving you some hints.

Haradrim · 08-29-2004, 11:33 PM

well thanks but how do you quote things?

BeardofPants · 08-30-2004, 02:29 AM

Well here's a hint: use the quote button found at the bottom of everyone's posts.

BeardofPants · 08-30-2004, 02:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lefty Scaevola

Are the sheltered Gentlemen here unfamiler with trolls or subcategories thereof, such as:
http://www.winternet.com/~mikelr/flame78.html

LOL, guess that makes me a cyber-sister then.

Telcontar_Dunedain · 08-30-2004, 02:37 AM

Just like BoP just did!

Haradrim · 08-30-2004, 02:58 AM

Im just stone deaf then. Io dont pay attention and I just go my own way. Oh yeah and I am stubborn too.

Elanor the Fair · 08-30-2004, 06:16 AM

So, just to tidy things up a bit and return to the original topic - Bill Ferny was a Man - in the tall, shoe-wearing sense of the word!!

I know what you are trying to say, Haradrim. It can get a little confusing, especially in The Lord of the Rings. In this book Tolkien never refers to Hobbits as men, despite the prologue and and other references outside LOTR. When he refers to someone as a Man in LOTR - he means someone with a configuration similar to modern day man and not a Hobbit!!!

I am sure he does this to avoid confusion and to distinguish between the various branches of mankind!!

Haradrim · 08-30-2004, 06:19 AM

yeah I know. But do origins neccessarily mean same species. Thats my question. I am not disputing and never did that Hobbits were humans. But at what ppoint do you actually call them different species. I would call it now and others here would call it later.

Telcontar_Dunedain · 08-30-2004, 07:07 AM

Bur for all BoP said I would say now but after relentless pressure I've got to agree with her.

Attalus · 08-30-2004, 09:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Haradrim

yeah I know. But do origins neccessarily mean same species. Thats my question. I am not disputing and never did that Hobbits were humans. But at what ppoint do you actually call them different species. I would call it now and others here would call it later.

Reread the Prologue, "Concerning Hobbits." They apparently originated in the upper Vales of Anduin, during the Second Age. Also, look at the Tale of Years in the Appendix.

Thorin II · 08-30-2004, 01:55 PM

I always thought Bill Ferny was a Man, but now that it's asked, I'm not sure why I thought so. Eärniel gives some good evidence, though.

Haradrim · 09-01-2004, 07:42 PM

I know I agree that Hobbits were men along time ago. They were one and the same. Cousins in fact but according to a prophecy if it were to say no man will kill the witchking then I would take it to meaning no human or male will kill the witchking. Also could someone clear up whether it was no man will or no man could cuz I think that is very important. I would but my books have gone missing right after my brother left for college. hmmmmm.....

08-29-2004, 05:39 PM	#81
Haradrim The Official Court Jester of the Entmoot Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Far Harad Posts: 1,006	Well lets take orcs. Orcs you could say are a branch of elves. They were twisted adn changed. They are just twisted evil branches off of elves. But you would never call an orc an elf. When orcs were first made you might call them elves because they werte just made but now after so many many many years they are different because of time and the slow changes they have. Orcs are a different race of elves the same way hobbits used to be short hairy footed men but now after thoudans of years they are a new species. __________________ A Bit More Grown Up This Time...

08-29-2004, 05:59 PM	#82
BeardofPants the Shrike Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: San Francisco, CA <3 Posts: 10,647	Actually, Haradrim, orks were twisted from Men, and can be considered to be of the race of Men as well..... It's no good; Tolkien says Hobbits are Men, there's no getting around it. Yer can argue 'til yer frickin' blue, BUT, the fact of the matter is: Tolkien says they're Men. Tolkien didn't believe in evolution. Again: Haradrim, pay attention: "Abnormally for humans...." Ergo, hobbits ARE human. Tolkien says as much. Why can't it get through your undersized cranium? There's no blurring of the lines - it's that frickin' simple. Bloody 'ell. BoP ducks and covers as the ensuing debate roars over her head __________________ "Binary solo! 0000001! 00000011! 0000001! 00000011!" ~ The Humans are Dead, Flight of the Conchords

08-29-2004, 06:26 PM	#83
Haradrim The Official Court Jester of the Entmoot Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Far Harad Posts: 1,006	Im just going to bow out because I will never change and neither will you so I say we shake hands and I will bow out. No hard feelings? __________________ A Bit More Grown Up This Time...

08-29-2004, 06:28 PM	#84
BeardofPants the Shrike Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: San Francisco, CA <3 Posts: 10,647	Believe what you want, I don't care. I'm just going with what Tolkien said. ::shrug:: __________________ "Binary solo! 0000001! 00000011! 0000001! 00000011!" ~ The Humans are Dead, Flight of the Conchords

08-29-2004, 06:30 PM	#85
Haradrim The Official Court Jester of the Entmoot Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Far Harad Posts: 1,006	i know but i interpret it differently thats all. __________________ A Bit More Grown Up This Time...

08-29-2004, 06:34 PM	#86
Attalus Swan-Knight of Dol Amroth Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: On the Bay of Belfalas Posts: 1,125	You know, Haradim, you would get more respect if you were able to actually quote things that support your ideas instead of just boldly asserting some impossible, unsupportable thesis. If a certain learned Tolkienist of my acquaintance sees this, he would probably say something like, maybe in some other books, but not in the writings of J.R.R. Tolkien. We are not writing fanfic, here, we are trying to understand Tolkien's world better. __________________ "What song the Sirens sang, or what name Achilles assumed when he hid himself among women, though puzzling questions are not beyond conjecture." - Sir Thomas Browne, Urn Burial.

08-29-2004, 06:56 PM	#87
Lefty Scaevola AngAdan Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Boerne, Texas Posts: 856	Are the sheltered Gentlemen here unfamiler with trolls or subcategories thereof, such as: http://www.winternet.com/~mikelr/flame78.html __________________ Gaius Mucius Scaevola Older, richer, and wiser than you "Mighty are the Ainur, and mightiest among them is Melkor, but that he may know, and all the Ainur, that I am Iluvatar, those things that ye have sung, I will show them forth, ... And thou, Melkor, shalt see that no theme may be played that hath not its uttermost source in me,"

08-29-2004, 07:54 PM	#88
Haradrim The Official Court Jester of the Entmoot Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Far Harad Posts: 1,006	I actually dont know how to quote and I am truly sorry if people are getting mad at me because that is the complerte opposite of my intent. I dont mean to upset anyone. I am sorry. __________________ A Bit More Grown Up This Time...

08-29-2004, 11:33 PM	#90
Haradrim The Official Court Jester of the Entmoot Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Far Harad Posts: 1,006	well thanks but how do you quote things? __________________ A Bit More Grown Up This Time...

08-30-2004, 02:29 AM	#91
BeardofPants the Shrike Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: San Francisco, CA <3 Posts: 10,647	Well here's a hint: use the quote button found at the bottom of everyone's posts. __________________ "Binary solo! 0000001! 00000011! 0000001! 00000011!" ~ The Humans are Dead, Flight of the Conchords

08-30-2004, 02:37 AM	#93
Telcontar_Dunedain Warrior of the House of Hador Join Date: Aug 2004 Posts: 4,651	Just like BoP just did! __________________ Then Huor spoke and said: "Yet if it stands but a little while, then out of your house shall come the hope of Elves and Men. This I say to you, lord, with the eyes of death: though we part here for ever, and I shall not look on your white walls again, from you and me a new star shall arise. Farewell!" The Silmarillion, Nirnaeth Arnoediad, Page 230

08-30-2004, 02:58 AM	#94
Haradrim The Official Court Jester of the Entmoot Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Far Harad Posts: 1,006	Im just stone deaf then. Io dont pay attention and I just go my own way. Oh yeah and I am stubborn too. __________________ A Bit More Grown Up This Time...

08-30-2004, 06:16 AM	#95
Elanor the Fair Elven Warrior Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: In the kitchen ...... still! Posts: 228	So, just to tidy things up a bit and return to the original topic - Bill Ferny was a Man - in the tall, shoe-wearing sense of the word!! I know what you are trying to say, Haradrim. It can get a little confusing, especially in The Lord of the Rings. In this book Tolkien never refers to Hobbits as men, despite the prologue and and other references outside LOTR. When he refers to someone as a Man in LOTR - he means someone with a configuration similar to modern day man and not a Hobbit!!! I am sure he does this to avoid confusion and to distinguish between the various branches of mankind!! __________________ Life's too short to eat bad chocolate

08-30-2004, 06:19 AM	#96
Haradrim The Official Court Jester of the Entmoot Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Far Harad Posts: 1,006	yeah I know. But do origins neccessarily mean same species. Thats my question. I am not disputing and never did that Hobbits were humans. But at what ppoint do you actually call them different species. I would call it now and others here would call it later. __________________ A Bit More Grown Up This Time...

08-30-2004, 07:07 AM	#97
Telcontar_Dunedain Warrior of the House of Hador Join Date: Aug 2004 Posts: 4,651	Bur for all BoP said I would say now but after relentless pressure I've got to agree with her. __________________ Then Huor spoke and said: "Yet if it stands but a little while, then out of your house shall come the hope of Elves and Men. This I say to you, lord, with the eyes of death: though we part here for ever, and I shall not look on your white walls again, from you and me a new star shall arise. Farewell!" The Silmarillion, Nirnaeth Arnoediad, Page 230

08-30-2004, 01:55 PM	#99
Thorin II Elven Warrior Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: The Lonely Mountain Posts: 161	I always thought Bill Ferny was a Man, but now that it's asked, I'm not sure why I thought so. Eärniel gives some good evidence, though. __________________ "Evil will always triumph because good is dumb." - Spaceballs

09-01-2004, 07:42 PM	#100
Haradrim The Official Court Jester of the Entmoot Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Far Harad Posts: 1,006	I know I agree that Hobbits were men along time ago. They were one and the same. Cousins in fact but according to a prophecy if it were to say no man will kill the witchking then I would take it to meaning no human or male will kill the witchking. Also could someone clear up whether it was no man will or no man could cuz I think that is very important. I would but my books have gone missing right after my brother left for college. hmmmmm..... __________________ A Bit More Grown Up This Time...

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