What would the Balrog have done if the ring had fallen into his hands

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

It wouldn't nessecarily have to be quickly. If the Nazgûl had alerted Sauron that the hobbits had entered Rivendell then it would be obvious to Sauron that they would try and do something about him. He knew Gandalf had escaped Saruman so if they did try and go to Minas Tirith as he suspected then the next most direct route would be Moria.

[Radagast The Brown]

Originally Posted by Telcontar_Dunedain

It wouldn't nessecarily have to be quickly. If the Nazgûl had alerted Sauron that the hobbits had entered Rivendell then it would be obvious to Sauron that they would try and do something about him. He knew Gandalf had escaped Saruman so if they did try and go to Minas Tirith as he suspected then the next most direct route would be Moria.

No, I don't think so - no sane person would go through Moria when he's got other choices, even if they're a bit longer. Gandalf didn't have any other choices, but I don't think Suaron expected Gandalf to go to Moria.

[Manveru]

ya moria was there last choice, they tried every other way but when they didnt work they had to use moria

[Olmer]

Originally Posted by Radagast The Brown

No, I don't think so - no sane person would go through Moria when he's got other choices, even if they're a bit longer. Gandalf didn't have any other choices, but I don't think Suaron expected Gandalf to go to Moria.

And what a coincidence!
Obviously, Gandalf was not among the sane persons, because he did not let down of Sauron's great expectation . Moria was his FIRST and ONLY choice from the beginning!
"There is a way that we may attempt",said Gandalf. "I thought from the beginning, when first I considered this journey, that we should try it...The road that I speak of leads to the Mines of Moria".
Don't watch the movie! Read.

[Forkbeard]

Originally Posted by Olmer

And what a coincidence!
Obviously, Gandalf was not among the sane persons, because he did not let down of Sauron's great expectation . Moria was his FIRST and ONLY choice from the beginning!
"There is a way that we may attempt",said Gandalf. "I thought from the beginning, when first I considered this journey, that we should try it...The road that I speak of leads to the Mines of Moria".
Don't watch the movie! Read.

it was gandalf's first choice because it was the unexpected cHOICE--THE WAY TO KEEP THEM OFF SAURON'S RADAR for awhile

[Attalus]

Besides, even if Gandalf knew about the Balrog, a very doubtful proposition, if you ask me, he would have hoped to sneak through. Moria was a big place, and he seems to have had some hope that it was empty of orcs. Heck, if it were just a map campaign, and a given that the Redhorn Pass was closed to them, Moria is the obvious cchoice. Balin might even still have been there, unlikely though that was, given the lack of messages from Moria to the Iron Hills.

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

But Sauron knew that they wouldn't have wanted to go any where near Saruman and that Caradhras would be near impassable so Moria would be the only other route.

[Pytt]

did Sauron know that Sauruman blocked Charadras from the fellowship? and if sauron knew Gandalf was insane enough to take the path trough Moria, he could as well try to cross the Gap unseen. I think. there is one way too, is'nt it? the path Galadriel and the elves take, when leaving the hobbits and Gandalf on the journey back.

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

But they didn't know the strenght of Saruman. Attempting to cross the Gap unseen wouldn't have been a good idea because it most probably wouldn't have worked. The Mines would supposedly throw Sauron off the scent. Anyway, I'm sure Sauron had enought orcs to spare the amount he did to go to Moria.

[Fenir_LacDanan]

Originally Posted by Attalus

Besides, even if Gandalf knew about the Balrog, a very doubtful proposition

This is taken from LOTR, The Council of Elrond: "Moria! Moria! Wonder of the Northern world! Too deep we delved there, and woke the nameless fear." Gloin.

While I do realise that the namless fear is not named, the wise would at least know about it's existence. And given that Gandalf was sitting a few seats around from Gloin when he spoke, Gandalf damn well would have known.

He may not have known it was a Balrog, but he knew that it was something terrible. For if something is keeping the dwarves from Durin's halls, their great forefather's home, then the thing keeping them away must be a thing of great power and evil, no?

[Olmer]

Originally Posted by Forkbeard

it was gandalf's first choice because it was the unexpected choice -THE WAY TO KEEP THEM OFF SAURON'S RADAR for awhile

On contrary, it was quite expected choice, because Sauron certaily knew that tunnels of Moria not once had been used by the elves as more comfortable passage through the Mountains, espesially in the winter.

Originally Posted by Attalus

Besides, even if Gandalf knew about the Balrog, ... he would have hoped to sneak through.

And he almost succeded in it, if Pippin woudn't make a racket.

Originally Posted by Attalus

Moria is the obvious choice.

Exactly!

Originally Posted by Telcontar_Dunedain

...so Moria would be the only other route.

Actually, it WAS other route:Cirith Forn en Andras , clean, safe to pass and guarded from orcs, with only one catch - you have to pay a toll.

[Pytt]

Originally Posted by Telcontar_Dunedain

But they didn't know the strenght of Saruman. Attempting to cross the Gap unseen wouldn't have been a good idea because it most probably wouldn't have worked. The Mines would supposedly throw Sauron off the scent. Anyway, I'm sure Sauron had enought orcs to spare the amount he did to go to Moria.

if you are talking about the fellowship, I think Gandalf knew Sarumans strength. and though it not likely woyuld have worked to go trough the Gap unseen, the possibility is still there. Gandalf knew about the balrog, or at least knew there was something in there, so both ways had it's dangers, but going trough the Gap meant Saruman was in the reach for the ring. but I still don't think Sauron knew exactly which path the fellowship would take.

[Olmer]

Originally Posted by Forkbeard

Hi Olmer,
First, how do you know that Sauron KNOWS that he has a chance to get the Ring?

He may have discerned once he became aware of the party on the river that there were 8 hostiles consisting of 2 men, 1 elf, 1 dwarf, and 4 little people that must be halflings who may or may not have anything to do with the Ring, but undoubtedly would be wanted for questioning and enslavement later.

Second problem is one of logistics. We know that no ford, ferry, or bridge existed at that point on the river or for some distance either direction.
So this leaves boats....all the boats and preparations for crossing the river seem to have been concentrated at Osgilliath... So they need either to make boats quickly, limiting the number of troops to send across. Or they need to port materials ... from the work sites preparing for river crossings at Osgilliath ...

So Sauron has Saruman send a force too... So between the forces coming from the west and those coming from the East, it shouldn't be a big deal for some 120 orcs to kill 4 warriors and kidnap four halflings.

As for the Nazgul, again, they had not been openly used in Gondor or Rohan or Lorien yet, they were yet disguised and visible only in the background.
So I think it good strategy and not a feint at all.

Greeting, Forkbeard!

I understand your point, and have to agree that I don't see any confirmation about Sauron's certain knowledge of Ring's location.

But let’s use a logistic, as you are saying.
I am certain that through his informants Sauron knew the exact assemblage of the Ringbearer's party before they entered Moria and after.
And how many of the multiracial companies with hobbits was traveling around nowadays? Especially traveling in the direction the Fellowship supposed to go?
You don't have to be a rocket scientist to put two and two together.

And, if you have an “educated guess”, why you have to gamble taking a chance and putting the very essence of your existence to depend on actions of the treacherous person , “whose own servants either waylaid or misled the servants of Sauron“. Sauron was aware that Saruman were nursing just the same agenda as he did, “therefore he hid his knowledge… and concealed his wrath, biding his time” (UT,’ Hunt for the Ring).
In view of this you could hardly say that Sauron had a big trust in whatever help coming from Saruman.

And yet, according to your version, instead of taking the matter in his own hands by sending as much power as he can gather, including Nazguls, who already compromised themselves enough by riding through the populated areas of Gondor, Rohan , Shire and the Vales of Anduin, he asks Saruman to deliver the troops of very disciplined and high organized elite soldiers to the place of the possible repossessing of The Ring.
He sends twice less soldiers then Saruman, who throwed his best soldiers on a long and dangerous trek through the extremely hostile Rohan just for the faint possibility to find the Ring. It was not a big deal how many orcs will kill a Company, but it is a big deal which side will acquire The Prize item. Seems to me Saruman , not Sauron, did not want to take any chances in letting the Ring to slip through.

Logically, what is more important: to postpone an assault on Gondor in order to get your invincibility , or to throw all your forces on preparation for the war without sparing even a battalion to insure your victory?
And the absence of the bridge is poor excuse, because if Sauron could ferry “horses and raiment” for Nazguls, he could arrange the same transportation for his troops.
Besides, the South and North Deeps with long stony beaches and so many gravel-shoals in the river, that even the lightest elven-boats needed a careful steering, was a convenient dispatch between two shores, which for many times has been used by enemies of Gondor and Rohan , since you literally can cross the River by foot.

Considering all this “pros” and “cons” I came to conclusion that is a VERY POOR, even negligent strategy on Sauron’s part, unless he was just pretending to be interested in the Ring by sending 40 orcs , who was already signed off as a military loss.

[Forkbeard]

Originally Posted by Olmer

Greeting, Forkbeard!

I understand your point, and have to agree that I don't see any confirmation about Sauron's certain knowledge of Ring's location.

But let’s use a logistic, as you are saying.
I am certain that through his informants Sauron knew the exact assemblage of the Ringbearer's party before they entered Moria and after.

I'm not convinced of that. Where would he learn such information before Moria? Not from the Nazgul. Nor from Elrond. Nor from Bill Ferny. 2 possible sources: the crebain from Dunland or the wolves who attacked them. Likely not the birds, who probably couldn't tell a halfling from a dwarf, and unlikely that Sauron would use Dunlending birds to go a spyin'. Those birds and wolves were likely Saruman's doing, and once has to assume that any information Saruman gathered he then gave to Sauron. But based on what we know, I'd say this is an unlikely scenario: Saruman probably kept it to himself in the hopes of getting the Ring himself. So again, where would Sauron get this information from?

And aftert? Again, source of the information? But even if he did know after Moria, why would he suspect that this party was with the Ring? That a party of ancient allies was traveling southward--ok; that said party stopped in Lorien--ruled by one of his ancient enemies, ok; that said party may in fact be headed to other ancient enemy HQ, Minas Tirith. As far as he knows, this has nothing to do with the Ring but instead the old alliances trying to reform to face him down. Once the "halflings" had carried the Ring off to Elrond's place, another ancient enemy and stronghold, why would he assume that this party of 9 carried the Ring with them? If they had the RIng, were I Sauron, I would suppose that they would send a troop of Glorfindel's with it, and of course Sauron thinks that what they want the Ring for is to try and master it--so if Saruman's treachery is known to Elrond, it apparently isn't to Galadriel or Rohan yet since they've done nothing to counteract it. So that's safe. If they had the Ring, they might be carrying it to Galadriel who might try and master it and throw him down, so by the time we get to Sarn Gebir, if the Ring ever left Elrond and Glorfindel, Gandalf or Galadriel surely took it to master it, they would surely be unable to reject it nor would they want to. What reason would he have to think that a halfling still carried such an important item and that it was there on the Anduin within his reach? I can think of no reason why he should think that.

And how many of the multiracial companies with hobbits was traveling around nowadays? Especially traveling in the direction the Fellowship supposed to go?
You don't have to be a rocket scientist to put two and two together.

You have to assume though that Sauron knows that a halfling is still the principal bearer of the ring. After all, the original ring bearer made a pretty good run right to Gandalf and Elrond, and since Sauron has no idea what Gandalf sees in these halflings, they must be some sort of servants (and if Sauron has the kind of knowledge you ascribe to him, he'll have noted the pack pony and cook gear of one of the little people, so unquestionably a servent of Gandalf's. And why would they indeed bring the ring with them? Surely what they want is the Ring's power and to replace him--who in Middle Earth would want to do that: Elrond, Galadriel, Gandalf, Saruman--but Saruman betrayed his friend, so that leaves the other 3. Beyond the Misty Mtns they are too far away for Sauron to mount an effective force and find them in the wilderness, so if they even have the ring with them still they are making for Lorien and Galadriel....so again, every assumption would lead an intelligent being to assume that by the time we get to breaking of the Fellowship that the Ring is somewhere else.

Interracial group traveling southward? Well, dwarves and elves were once allied against him, elves and men were once allied against him. They obviously are attempting to renew those ancient alliances and make a last stand. Halflings with them? One of two possibilities there--since undoubtedly the wounded one stayed behind: servants or bow-men (remembering that the Shire had sent 100 archers to the North Kingdom's defense agains the Witch King).

And, if you have an “educated guess”, why you have to gamble taking a chance and putting the very essence of your existence to depend on actions of the treacherous person , “whose own servants either waylaid or misled the servants of Sauron“. Sauron was aware that Saruman were nursing just the same agenda as he did, “therefore he hid his knowledge… and concealed his wrath, biding his time” (UT,’ Hunt for the Ring).
In view of this you could hardly say that Sauron had a big trust in whatever help coming from Saruman.

Trust and trust. That is, Sauron had the Nine and it is doubtful that Saruman could have withstood a direct onslaught of all Nine on his home if he should succeed. SAuron believes in TT that Saruman will give Pippin up easily by sending just one Nazgul--so i don't think that he had serious concerns that direction. He'd deal with Saruman later, but no real concerns that Saruman would nab the Ring if available, and if he did, easily taken care of.

And yet, according to your version, instead of taking the matter in his own hands by sending as much power as he can gather, including Nazguls, who already compromised themselves enough by riding through the populated areas of Gondor, Rohan , Shire and the Vales of Anduin, he asks Saruman to deliver the troops of very disciplined and high organized elite soldiers to the place of the possible repossessing of The Ring.

We don;t know that. No one had seen the Nazgul in a millenia. They most likely rode through Rohan at night, and scared everyone witless, but they weren't exactly revealed either. Same in the North, other than Elrond and Co. no one would know a Nazgul when they saw one, and certainly wouldn't be hightailing it south to Gondor and Rohan to tell them. So not too big a problem there. On the other hand, becomes a bigger problem when they're back and marshalling forces in secret for major offensives--one doesn't usually want one's enemies knowing what one is up to.

But we come full circle: from your point of view Sauron should have extended more power and tipped his hand to retrieve the Ring which he should have known or at least suspected was carried by Frodo. My view is exactly the opposite, given the nature of the Ring and Sauron's own thought, he would think that one of the great would take the Ring and try and master it--Elrond had it in his house--if it ever left there, it was with Gandalf, and once Gandalf died, and if he didn't take it to the depths of Moria with him, then it went to Lorien and Galadriel. Why on earth would he think that a hobbit still carried it down the river?

He sends twice less soldiers then Saruman, who throwed his best soldiers on a long and dangerous trek through the extremely hostile Rohan just for the faint possibility to find the Ring.

Rohan wasn't all that hostile--remenber that Wormtongue has control of Theoden who ordered that that troop of orcs be left alone---Eomer disobeyed direct orders on the orc's return journey So Saruman had little expectation of Rohan being hostile. And do remember too that Mordor orcs were in that company too-they didn't arrive separately or leave separately--they all came together, they all left together, and for a long way into Rohan their path lay together. This suggests coordination at the higher levels, which means S and S.

[Forkbeard]

To continue:

It was not a big deal how many orcs will kill a Company, but it is a big deal which side will acquire The Prize item. Seems to me Saruman , not Sauron, did not want to take any chances in letting the Ring to slip through.

Probably on orders from Sauron...see above. Though Sauron would eventually "take care of" Saruman for plotting etc, one can not deny that on the face of it, Saruman was Sauron's lieutenant.

Must go, will try to complete my answer tomorrow.

FB

[Fenir_LacDanan]

it just seems that you never appreciate me, or call me any more...
Sometimes, I dont know why I bother posting....

[Forkbeard]

Top o' the mornin' to y'all:

Olmer, somewhere in your post you made the point that if Sauron could get the nine and their steeds across the Anduin surely he could get a troop or two of orcs across. But that isn't true at all. Getting 9 very lightly armored wraiths and nine horses across the river is a wholly different enterprise than getting a troop of heavily armored orcs across, and the larger the unit, the larger the logistical problem to overcome. Besides, the case of the nine there was plenty of time to plan....Sauron had been seeking for some months the location of the Shire and had the luxury of once finding it of getting the 9 across quickly, but it didn't have to be done immediately. On the other hand, the company is first attacked on the River on the 23rd of Feb and the attack on Parth Galen on the 26th. So Sauron has less than 2.5 days to get a sizeable troop across the river and down to Parth Galen, the most likely spot since the Fellowship HAS to put in there or go over the falls of Rauros. Since the orcs are not boaters, the option of sending a troop in boats after them isn't likely; the area in which this is happening is not heavily wooded, so making makeshift rafts or pontoons isn't possible. So again, the materials have to be ported quickly from somewhere else. And in all this of course, he doesn't KNOW that the Ring is there, though he can be somewhat certain that this party KNOWS where the Ring is or has some information about it.

Originally Posted by Olmer

Logically, what is more important: to postpone an assault on Gondor in order to get your invincibility , or to throw all your forces on preparation for the war without sparing even a battalion to insure your victory?

Since, as we've seen, he doesn't know where the Ring is--and certainly has no reason to think its floating down the river, not usin a battalion to go after this hostile group(even if he could get a group so large across the river at that point) and tipping his hand and intentions too soon is good strategy. And again, why isn't 40 enough to kill 4? What's needed here is quick action--guerilla like action, which is exactly what we have.

Besides, the South and North Deeps with long stony beaches and so many gravel-shoals in the river, that even the lightest elven-boats needed a careful steering, was a convenient dispatch between two shores, which for many times has been used by enemies of Gondor and Rohan , since you literally can cross the River by foot.

I think you mean the Undeeps--but check how much further north these are than the Sarn Gebir where they are attacked the first time--quite a distance to cover on foot.

So all in all, I have to say that I disagree with you.

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

But the orcs won't have gone from Mordor to Moria during that time. Remember the eagles reported that Moria could still be free. They will have been sent to Moria before, maybe soon after the Nazgûl set out looking for the Shire. The reason for that coud be double-barelled. Remember the Nazgûl had visited the Lonely Mountain so they could have gathered news that the dwarves were trying to retake Moria. Sauron wasn't stupid. He'd know that Gandalf would want to get the Ring out of the Shire, and he thought that they'd want to get in to Gondor. Also, he may not have wanted the Fellowship to visit Lorien. You never know, they could have come out from Lorien with some elven warriors and he couldn't risk that, or them counselling with Galadriel.

Originally Posted by Forkbeard

I'm not convinced of that. Where would he learn such information before Moria? Not from the Nazgul.

Why not? The Nazgûl had to return to Mordor and I'm sure that they'd have told Sauron that the Ringbearer had entered Imladris, and Frodo felt a coldness on Caradhras which was surely a Nazgûl.

[Forkbeard]

Originally Posted by Telcontar_Dunedain

But the orcs won't have gone from Mordor to Moria during that time. Remember the eagles reported that Moria could still be free.

Heya TD,
Not sure to whom you are responding in this paragraph, but thought I'd make a couple of points. But where and when did the Eagles report Moria "still be free"? The Eagles simply reported that they hadn't sighted anything of the 9 or any movements of the Enemy since the episode at the Fords. Where in that is there anything about Moria being free, even as a possibility? What is clear is that the Wise knew something evil lived in Moria, but not what in spite of Gandalf's and Aragorn both having travelled safely through, nor did they know that it had been reinhabited by the orcs, and Gloin's news seems new to them as well. SO I think Gandalf hoped that Moria was free enough for a small party to sneak through, but it isn't based on the Eagles.

They will have been sent to Moria before, maybe soon after the Nazgûl set out looking for the Shire. The reason for that coud be double-barelled. Remember the Nazgûl had visited the Lonely Mountain so they could have gathered news that the dwarves were trying to retake Moria.

This isn't possible, though. The "retaking" of Moria lasted less than 5 years according to the Book of Mazarbul (sp?), so 25 years before the Nine went to the Shire.

Sauron wasn't stupid. He'd know that Gandalf would want to get the Ring out of the Shire, and he thought that they'd want to get in to Gondor.

Why would he think specifically Gondor? He doesn't yet know about Aragorn--as far as he knows the centuries have taken care of both Elendil's lines and he need only take care of the remnants in Minas Tirith, the last of the Edain. So once it enters Rivendell, Gondor is a possibilitiy, but why not Elrond or Galadriel or Gandalf taking the Ring and trying to master it against him?

Also, he may not have wanted the Fellowship to visit Lorien. You never know, they could have come out from Lorien with some elven warriors and he couldn't risk that, or them counselling with Galadriel.

IF he knew that that is where they were going and IF he cared what a group of travelers on the north and west side of the Misty Mtns did.

Why not? The Nazgûl had to return to Mordor and I'm sure that they'd have told Sauron that the Ringbearer had entered Imladris, and Frodo felt a coldness on Caradhras which was surely a Nazgûl.

When the Nazgul return to Mordor, it is more than 2 months before the Fellowship is formed and leaves Rivendell. How on earth would the Nazgul would know the makeup of the Ringbearer's group before it was formed? And where are the Nazgul in the chapter "The Ring Goes South?"

I have to also question your statement about Frodo--I find no statement in the chapter on this, beyond Frodo freezing to death (the dream about warm and comfortable places is a sure sign that he was succumbing to the cold, believe it or not) as are all the others except Legolas. So I don't think we can put that down to the Nazgul either.

FB

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

I meant when A shadow passed above the Company and Frodo would not say what he thought it was.