Ilúvatar good & evil

[brownjenkins]

enjoy you trip RÃ*an!

[Rían]

"thag you very buch!"

It was quite nice Unfortunately there's the "cleaning-up" now - loads of dirty laundry for 5, and cleaning up after the Easter feast, too! But there's no fun without mess, is there?

[Stephen]

Originally posted by brownjenkins
is the creator responsible for guiding his creations to the path of good or are they just supposed to "figure it out"?

Iluvatar guides the Ainur like a conductor guides the orchestra. He sets the theme and they "adorn this theme". Another analogy; Iluvatar invented the sound & musical scale that the Ainur master. This is why Melkor, though varying from the intended theme, can't create anything that does not have it's roots in Iluvatar's thought. I think Melkor knew exactly what he was doing and in the context of Tolkien's story Melkor is definitely comitting "evil" since his music was not in accord with the current theme. Iluvatar says "..., I will now that ye make in harmony together a great music". Do I think Melkor is some fool? No. Melkor consciously defies Iluvatar.

This is also a comparative religion topic eh? Like i typed already, in the context of the story Melkor is evil because Tolkien says so but the birth of evil in Ainulindale is as logically flawed as that in christianity. Iluvatar created the Ainur out of his pure thought. How can they contain anything that is not essentially him? So if Melkor is evil then Iluvatar made him so. Iluvatar can't throw seeds in the dirt, make it rain, and expect a desert to remain. Unless, that is, he's not so smart.

[Valandil]

Originally posted by Stephen
This is also a comparative religion topic eh? Like i typed already, in the context of the story Melkor is evil because Tolkien says so but the birth of evil in Ainulindale is as logically flawed as that in christianity. Iluvatar created the Ainur out of his pure thought. How can they contain anything that is not essentially him? So if Melkor is evil then Iluvatar made him so. Iluvatar can't throw seeds in the dirt, make it rain, and expect a desert to remain. Unless, that is, he's not so smart.

Not so... for Iluvatar gave his creations Free Will as well... even the freedom to rebel from what he taught or instructed them to do. There's no 'logical flaw' in either case if you see this as a further extension of Iluvatar's / God's graciousness. In both cases, they also know they're quite up to the job of dealing with whatever situation may arise from a disobedient exercise of free will.

The evil to make a wrong choice when given a free choice does not, IMO, imply that the evil originated with the creator of the one who chooses... the evil does not originate with the one who gave the choice to his creation.

[brownjenkins]

is it ever mentioned that eru gave his creations 'free will', in the book or by tolkien... or is that an interpretation?

i hear it a lot here and wonder, as i don't remember seeing it in what i've read

[Valandil]

Originally posted by brownjenkins
is it ever mentioned that eru gave his creations 'free will', in the book or by tolkien... or is that an interpretation?

i hear it a lot here and wonder, as i don't remember seeing it in what i've read

Probably an interpretation - though I don't have perfect enough recall to remember whether or not Tolkien specifically said so (anyone else know of one?). It seems a logical interpretation though, just projecting from what we know of JRRT's beliefs and analyzing what he DID write.

[brownjenkins]

Originally posted by Valandil
Probably an interpretation - though I don't have perfect enough recall to remember whether or not Tolkien specifically said so (anyone else know of one?). It seems a logical interpretation though, just projecting from what we know of JRRT's beliefs and analyzing what he DID write.

i'm not sure either... it just seems to me that with the whole music thing, it is also perfectly reasonable to assume that eru laid out the entire path for arda... and that 'free will' is just not seeing the whole path, rather than the ability to deviate from the path

after creation eru said:

But when they were come into the Void, Iluvatar said to them: ‘Behold your Music!’ And he showed to them a vision, giving to them sight where before was only hearing; and they saw a new World made visible before them, and it was globed amid the Void, and it was sustained therein, but was not of it. And as they looked and wondered this World began to unfold its history, and it seemed to them that it lived and grew. And when the Ainur had gazed for a while and were silent, Iluvatar said again: ‘Behold your Music! This is your minstrelsy; and each of you shall find contained herein, amid the design that I set before you, all those things which it may seem that he himself devised or added. And thou, Melkor, wilt discover all the secret thoughts of thy mind, and wilt perceive that they are but a part of the whole and tributary to its glory.’

And many other things Iluvatar spoke to the Ainur at that time, and because of their memory of his words, and the knowledge that each has of the music that he himself made, the Ainur know much of what was, and is, and is to come, and few things are unseen by them. Yet some things there are that they cannot see, neither alone nor taking counsel together; for to none but himself has Iluvatar revealed all that he has in store, and in every age there come forth things that are new and have no foretelling, for they do not proceed from the past. And so it was that as this vision of the World was played before them, the Ainur saw that it contained things which they had not thought. And they saw with amazement the coming of the Children of Iluvatar, and the habitation that was prepared for them; and they perceived that they themselves in the labour of their music had been busy with the preparation of this dwelling, and yet knew not that it had any purpose beyond its own beauty. For the Children of Iluvatar were conceived by him alone; and they came with the third theme, and were not in the theme which Iluvatar propounded at the beginning, and none of the Ainur had part in their making. Therefore when they beheld them, the more did they love them, being things other than themselves, strange and free, wherein they saw the mind of Iluvatar reflected anew, and learned yet a little more of his wisdom, which otherwise had been hidden even from the Ainur.

it could be seen as all part of a grand design... melkor included

[Valandil]

Originally posted by brownjenkins
i'm not sure either... it just seems to me that with the whole music thing, it is also perfectly reasonable to assume that eru laid out the entire path for arda... and that 'free will' is just not seeing the whole path, rather than the ability to deviate from the path

...

it could be seen as all part of a grand design... melkor included

Well, you COULD look at it so. It just seems unlikely that this was Tolkien's intent, knowing his own view of God - and the comments he DOES make about patterning Iluvatar after Him.

[Radagast The Brown]

I agree with Valandil.

I think that Iluvatar did not control them, he did give them free will - but tried to influence them for good - sort of like parents do with their children.
There are many differences though. For example - Iluvatar made the Valar the way he wanted, and made their personality from the beginning. He gave them their basic 'hobbies' the things they like. Melkor was like Aule, but he didn't want to learn from others, but to destroy their works. I don't think it means Iluvatar has an evil side.
Perhaps I'm wrong though - maybe he did give them their whole character. But nothing is written about it. Too bad.

(btw - I heard in a computer game that someone used the word 'mayhap'. I guessed it's like maybe and perhaps, and I ask you if this word really exists? It's not in my dictionary, but it doesn't mean much, because many words aren;'t.)

[Valandil]

Originally posted by Radagast The Brown
(btw - I heard in a computer game that someone used the word 'mayhap'. I guessed it's like maybe and perhaps, and I ask you if this word really exists? It's not in my dictionary, but it doesn't mean much, because many words aren;'t.)

Yes - 'mayhap' is a word and you have the right meaning. It's sort of an old word that doesn't get much useage anymore. I see it in old books I read somethings.

[brownjenkins]

Originally posted by Valandil
Well, you COULD look at it so. It just seems unlikely that this was Tolkien's intent, knowing his own view of God - and the comments he DOES make about patterning Iluvatar after Him.

fair enough, just looking at it from another possible angle... i do realize tolkien's beliefs... however, he draws off of themes much older then christianity and may, intentionally or not, reflect some of that past

[Valandil]

*bump* for the benefit of 'inked' (if he desires to address it!)

[inked]

Great thread for a read through at one sitting. Lots of civil discourse on the relation of evil and choice and the meanings of free will. True consideration of the intentions of the author within the known data of available comment.
Youse guys are goooood!

One concept I think I could add that might clarify the relation of evil arising in the creation of a GOOD God is the difference between God's ability to know the possibility of evil without the necessity of actualizing it. That is to say God (and yes I am working from a specifically Christian conceptualiztion of Him) can intellectually know that evil is a possibility without calling it into being. Created beings in the hierarchy of the chain of being, not being God, have of necessity a lesser power to comprehend reality and some knowledge to them may not be capable of realization without calling it out of possibility into subcreation (experience). Now in this regard, JRRT's story allows levels of insight that merely stating events or propositions would not. Melkor knows the theme and apparently has adorned it in proper order, but he conceives of the need to aggrandize himself and to be in the place of ERU. Melkor is a creature desiring to replace Eru and Eru's intent with Melkor and Melkor's intent which he, Melkor, realizes is different from Eru's. In that CRUCIBLE OF CHOICE - to stick to the theme or to alter it - Melkor is a free agent who has before him a forked path. And he chose. Because of his circumscribed being, he did not experience this process only as a thought experiment but brought into subcreation the actual disobedience (thematic alteration in musical terms). Upon seeing the reaction of his fellows, his only regard is to self and he further enlarges his alteration and influence even to the point of drawing others into his theme ( an exercise of their freedom to so choose but also limited by actualization or subcreation). This combined alteration expands until all the Ainur are playing to Eru's theme or, and this is critical, their own (which has the appearance of following Melkor but results in noise not thematic development). Evil is thus seen to be derivative, destructive, and to have no separate existence. Had the good not been, evil could not have preyed upon it.

Here Tolkein pictures forth the created order's ability to follow God or to resist Him while relying on Him totally for existence - each being appropriate to his/her/its place in the hiearchy. JRRT uses music. The classical Christian description is light (God - in Whom is no shadow of turning, dwelling in light inaccessible, hid from our eyes by luminosity). Without light there can be no shadow. It is the interposition of self between God and His love that casts shadows. If the self chooses to reflect the light or to be transparent to the light or to become part of the light, the shadow has not even the possibility of existence. Applicably, in Tolkien's use of music every aspect from being to sound exists by Eru. One can join the singing into existence of all there is in harmony or ordered discord as appropriate, thereby adorning the theme and co-creating with Eru OR one can oppose one's theme to Eru's and deliberately distort sound itself which, when joined by others so inclined to self-expression, results not in an organized opposition, but a loud cacaphony of random expressions of self-will to destroy the theme.

JRRT's use of music was for me spectacularly successful in grasping that self-will concealed under the veil of 'creativity' justifies the production not of comprehensible structure, but static. The possibility of static requires the existence of that which could produce it before it can come into being; it is derivative. Thus, says JRRT, is the nature of evil. It is possible, but not inevitable; only disobedience to the Good can call it into being and keep it present. When all is harmonized with Eru, Arda is perfected. When all is not so harmonized, Arda is infected.

The whole point of the story is that each of us can be Melkor or his followers or we can be Valar and harmonizing Ainur. OUR CHOICES MATTER. I have made static, but I have heard the music of the theme of Eru and I would adorn it! I reject Melkor and his noise! I resolve to be and do what Eru called me into existence to be, that which is truly me and my most free, Eru's musician. So mote it be!

[ItalianLegolas]

To set the record straight, the modern Christian God also created something evil; the angel Lucifer, a.k.a. The Devil, and then the Devil created all other things that were evil. So Iluvatar is both good and evil, but I tend to think that he is more good then evil. Because in this case Melkor (or Morgoth) of the Valar, and Sauron of the Maiar can both be compared to Lucifer. I think that these angels (because thats what Tolkien wanted the Valar to be, angels, NOT gods), are just bad apples

[inked]

To set the record straight, God, the Christian God, created creatures with free will. One of those chose, primordially, self-will over obedience, and we call him Lucifer, the Devil, the Adversary, the Deceiver. But he was created good, the twin so to speak of Michael the Archangel. But as Screwtape observed, to be truly evil one must have had potential for being truly good. It is a matter of self-actualization in ME and our primary world. Your choices, much more so than your talents, show who you really are - to paraphrase Albus Dumbledore. So says Gandalf of Gollum: there is hope, not much, but some. Each and everyone of us is so choosing everyday. And we are helping each other to that final choice's reality. As CS Lewis observed, it is a terrible thing to live in a society of possible gods and goddesses whom you would be strongly tempted to worship should you meet them as they shall be or else everlasting horrors such as you meet, if ever now, only in the most horrible nightmare (paraphrased). See THE WEIGHT OF GLORY by CS LEWIS for a fuller consideration.

[Valandil]

Originally Posted by ItalianLegolas

To set the record straight, the modern Christian God also created something evil; the angel Lucifer, a.k.a. The Devil, and then the Devil created all other things that were evil. So Iluvatar is both good and evil, but I tend to think that he is more good then evil. Because in this case Melkor (or Morgoth) of the Valar, and Sauron of the Maiar can both be compared to Lucifer. I think that these angels (because thats what Tolkien wanted the Valar to be, angels, NOT gods), are just bad apples

No - to set the record straight, The Devil created NOTHING! He has no power to create.

Evil is not a thing unto itself... it is 'corrupted good'.

'Inked' does a great job explaining what went awry with Lucifer.