Finrod and Amarie

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally posted by Ruinel
Where you trying to comment on my quote SGH? Or were you laughing too hard to type?

I was trying to quote you, but the board went down. I will delete the other post, and try it again in a few. Stand by.

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally posted by Ruinel
*Ruinel is lost in this conversation, but thinks Maedhros needs a kick in the pants for not being completely on Finrod's side on everything!!!*

Ruinel, we are discussing the Athrabeth which you haven't read yet. I agree with you about Maedhros.

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally posted by Maedhros
I posting about your comment:

If the great FF did that, it is terribly sad.

What's sad, is that Finrod loved his brother and believed that he would suffer a worse fate by marrying a mortal. He loved Aegnor. However, Aegnor's decision was his own. I don't think Finrod wanted either one of them to be unhappy. He loved them both, but Aegnor would not return to life, and I think that must have been very devistating to Finrod.

Not necessarily, if I imply from your post that Finrod advice to his brother was to refect Andreth, can it be that it had something to do with the fact that he didn't know true love in ME because Amarië left him in Aman. True failing of love.

I don't think that any advice that Finrod gave to Aegnor or Andreth, had anything to do with his love for Amarie. It is not a true failing of love. Amarie was not permitted to go into exile with him. They did marry after his return from Mandos.

What is up with you and Finrod? He was a wonderful person in almost every way. Just wondering why Feanor and his kind are so deserving of your admiration and you can down a Elf that was vitually Feanor's counterpart. Feanor was the cause of all the woes of the Noldor.

It's not my fault that Finrod is portrayed as an average elf, a goody two shoes.

It is not my fault that Feanor and his sons are jerks, and that you admire that.

[Gwaimir Windgem]

Originally posted by Maedhros
It's not my fault that Finrod is portrayed as an average elf, a goody two shoes.

I still cannot see the appeal of utter arrogance and murdering your own kin.

[Maedhros]

It is not my fault that Feanor and his sons are jerks, and that you admire that.

It's funny actually, there was this very interesting thread about the Ñoldor and the Vanyar, and they are many interesting points about both races. There is this point that I would like to point out:

But one thing that I believe can be safely said is this: I've noticed that the Noldor, and in particular Fëanor, are often insulted, and sometimes it seems that they're down right hated, and I think this is, for the most part, a result of reading with a pitiless and black/white perspective. It's sad, because if the story is read as such, the tragedy of Fëanor's fall (and the Noldor's) is lost on the reader.

[Ruinel]

Originally posted by Maedhros
It's not my fault that Finrod is portrayed as an average elf, a goody two shoes.

[Ruinel]

Originally posted by Sister Golden Hair
It is not my fault that Feanor and his sons are jerks, and that you admire that.

YOU GET 'IM, GIRL!!!

Maedhros: Feanor's selfishness and hot temper brought the Doom of Mandos on the Noldor. Feanor brought on/ ordered the Kinslaying at Alaqualonde. Feanor and his sons left the other's on the shore while they took the ships to ME... some of those elves who took the ice bridge died. And who's fault would that be, I wonder? Feanor!!!

I'm thinking that not a lot has been lost on me here. Sorry that I can't feel sorry for his loss of the Silmarils, and he wasn't the only son who lost a father that day. Yet those other sons did not turn out the way he did.

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally posted by Maedhros
It's funny actually, there was this very interesting thread about the Ñoldor and the Vanyar, and they are many interesting points about both races. There is this point that I would like to point out:

But one thing that I believe can be safely said is this: I've noticed that the Noldor, and in particular Fëanor, are often insulted, and sometimes it seems that they're down right hated, and I think this is, for the most part, a result of reading with a pitiless and black/white perspective. It's sad, because if the story is read as such, the tragedy of Fëanor's fall (and the Noldor's) is lost on the reader.

Well in implying this to me is incorrect. I never said I hated Feanor. As a matteroffact, I have always found Feanor to be an exciting character and without him, the Silmarillion wouldn't be much of a story. The fact is that he was the cause of all the strife of the Noldor and in his deeds to persue the Silmarils, caused the deaths of many of his own people, because in his pride he felt they did not hold true to him. In all the times that I have read the Silmarillion, never was my reading of it pitiless or black and white. I saw Feanor for exactly what he was which was the author's intent. What I fail to understand is how anyone that admires such a character, who caused such grief, not only to his people, but to his children as well, can bash a character like FF, who did nothing but good in his life. As Angrod told Thingol:

Guiltless we came forth save maybe for folly, to listen to the words of fell Feanor, and become as if besotted with wine, and as briefly. No evil did we do on our road, but suffered ourselves great wrong; and forgave it.

Now, I will say it one more time everyone: let's get back on topic.

[Artanis]

Here is a funny little thing from Shibboleth, suggesting that Finrod and Amárië was married before Finrod went into exile It is taken from a note about the parentage of Gil-Galad.

Finrod left his wife in Valinor and had no children in Exile

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally posted by Artanis
Here is a funny little thing from Shibboleth, suggesting that Finrod and Amárië was married before Finrod went into exile It is taken from a note about the parentage of Gil-Galad.

Yeah, the Sil says otherwise, but the Sil has its problems. Tolkien changed so many things so often, especially in that geneology. But I have to think then that if the account in the Shibboleth is accurate, and they were married at the time he went into exile, then she would have gone with him. How confusing.

[Artanis]

The note I quoted was dated 1965. On the same note Gil-Galad is also put in as Orodreth's son. But a few paragraphs before that note, CRT has this comment:

It emerged, however, in the Grey Annals of 1951 (XI.44, $108) that Felagund had no wife, for the Vanya Amárië whom he loved had not been permitted to leave Aman.

The Grey Annals is probably the source of the Silmarillion version.

[Ruinel]

OMG!!! Do NOT even say that Finrod was married to Amarie, and then didn't go into exile with him!!! That would definitely put her way, way, way down on my list. As I've said... if she truely loved him, she would have endured ANYTHING to be with him (ie, the ice, the journey, the exiled status, ANYTHING).
I think she was a pansy-"s", nail painting, big haired tease that played with Finrod. And she definitely did NOT deserve his love.

*erk!!! must ... calm ... down ... *

[Artanis]

Originally posted by Ruinel
OMG!!! Do NOT even say that Finrod was married to Amarie, and then didn't go into exile with him!!!

But her staying behind was very convenient for our Queen of Nargothrond here

Oops, I remember now, you've got a claim on Mr. Goldilocks too, haven't you

[Earniel]

Her staying behind was also very convenient for the plots.

*wonders how large the crush that some people have on Finrod is if they start to dislike his love interests when these don't willingly go away with him into darkness but decides not to say it aloud. *

[Ruinel]

Originally posted by Eärniel
Her staying behind was also very convenient for the plots.

convenient!??! *ack* WHAT!?

Here's this Elf. And he leaves the most beautiful place that ever existed because of his LOYALTY to his kin. This tart makes some lame excuse that she's not allowed to go into Exile with him (probably because she'll break a friggin' nail or muss her hair or some lame excuse like that). He faces a bitter battle at Alqualonde where he has to fight against his father's kin with his mother's kin, relatives dropping like flies left and right. Then Feanor (that rat) leaves him and the rest on the shores and they have to take a perilous journey across the ice. Again, he has to watch kin and friend die along THAT route. The perils, the tragedies, the bitter end at Tol-in-Gaurhoth!!!

Couldn't there have been someone to share his life, someone to bring joy to the bitter Exile, someone to say "come back alive with Beren"?

And where, oh where is Amarie in all of this? Reports say she was busy getting her hair and nails done at Aman Couturier!!!

arrrrgh! Must ... get ... control!!!

[Artanis]

Originally posted by Ruinel
Couldn't there have been someone to share his life, someone to bring joy to the bitter Exile, someone to say "come back alive with Beren"?

But if he had wedded Amarie and she had followed him in Exile, would he have fought as fiercely in the Dagor Bragollach, or swore an oath to Barahir, and so come with Beren on his quest?

[Ruinel]

Originally posted by Artanis
But if he had wedded Amarie and she had followed him in Exile, would he have fought as fiercely in the Dagor Bragollach, or swore an oath to Barahir, and so come with Beren on his quest?

Yes, I think he would have fought fiercely, and would have sworn an oath. That was the kind of Elf he was. Perhaps he would have been more cautious with Beren knowing there was someone to come home to. Perhaps he still would have died by the werewolf in the pit. However, in my opinion, if there had been a wife to share his life with, I think that it would have made things easier for him.

[Ruinel]

Originally posted by Eärniel
*wonders how large the crush that some people have on Finrod is if they start to dislike his love interests when these don't willingly go away with him into darkness but decides not to say it aloud. *

Crush: an infatuation. Infatuation: inspired with foolish love or affection.

I do not have a "crush" on Finrod... I just ... really... like ... his character... a lot. Ok, more than "a lot".

Besides, how could anyone NOT fall for him. *swoons*

[Sister Golden Hair]

Well, I prefer that she did not go into exile with him. The story surrounding Finrod's character would not have been half as moving if she had been there to confort him. Afterall, it is his noble character and sad trials that make us love him. All of these terrible things that happened to such a good guy.

He faces a bitter battle at Alqualonde where he has to fight against his father's kin with his mother's kin, relatives dropping like flies left and right.

Just to nitpick, Finrod did not actually fight in the Kinslaying. He was at the rear of the great host and it had ended by the time they came up. Galadriel fought, but she was at the head of the host with Fingon, I believe.

[Artanis]

Originally posted by Ruinel
However, in my opinion, if there had been a wife to share his life with, I think that it would have made things easier for him.

I'm not sure things would not have been easier. I'm afraid he would have been torn between his duty as a warrior and oath-holder, and his life with Amarie, even is he had taken the same actions as we know he did. There is a reason why Elves don't marry in times of war.