Bombadil...theories? The Ring had no effect on him!

[crow]

Tom is stated as being the master (whatever that means) of an area of land between the Shire and Bree. I am cautious about defining him, but he seems to be a sort of spirit, physical manifestation, what-have-you, of the Old Forest, just as Goldberry is the spirit of the river, or the pool or somesuch. A naiad, as I believe the Ancient Greeks would have put it. Just as the Old Forest is one of the last remnants of a vast wood that once spanned a huge portion of Middle Earth, so Tom is the diminished spirit and master of that wood. He is outside of good and evil as it is found in Middle Earth. He aided the Frodo and Co. because they were harmless. He would not cooperate with Sauron because the Dark Lord would surely destroy the Old Forest. But I say this only as tentative speculation.

[Oliver Thornton]

I just found out something I think all of us have missed!!!
Tom Bomadil is Beorn!!!!!!
His wife is goldberry or whatever berry she is and she controls rain beorn controls most animals.

[FrodoFriend]

huh???
goldberry controls rain? beorn controls animals?
he can turn into a bear and talk to animals but i don't think that's the same as controlling them.
besides, how would that prove that he's bombadil?

[Oliver Thornton]

Tom probably doesn't control animals but I know Goldberry controls enough rain to do her cleaning outside.
Tom is called by many other names.

[Elfhelm]

Just bringing this to the top for "old scholar".

Tom was a character in a children's poem. After the success of the Hobbit, JRRT was asked for another book. He originally suggested a reworking of Tom Bombadil. The idea must have stayed with him while he developed the LotR.

The children's poem was inspired by a doll brought back from the Netherlands by an aunt and rescued for the youngest boy after the older boy (now a priest) attempted to flush it down a toilet (?). The doll had a blue coat and yellow boots. It's really a cool topic.

[Eärloth]

Goldberry described Bombadil with the words 'he is'; Bombadil described himself by saying that he had been since there had been hills and trees and streams...I can't really remember. So I'd say he was a subject born *of* the woods and the Earth, Goldberry the 'River-daughter'. Not quite Maiar, because the Ring would have effected him then. Not near human, he just...was.

[Olmer]

Originally Posted by Eärloth

Not quite Maiar, because the Ring would have effected him then.

Where does it say that the Ring affects the maia? Sauron was living with the Ring happily ever after.
Even Gandalf, not the highest on maiar's hierarchy, at least two times was handling the Ring without any ill effect.

[Landroval]

Originally Posted by Olmer

Where does it say that the Ring affects the maia? Sauron was living with the Ring happily ever after.
Even Gandalf, not the highest on maiar's hierarchy, at least two times was handling the Ring without any ill effect.

There is no direct refference, but this can be inferred

Originally Posted by Shadow of the past, FotR

With that power I should have power too great and terrible. And over me the Ring would gain a power still greater and more deadly.

Originally Posted by Letter #192

Few others, possibly no others of [Frodo's] time, would have got so far.

Originally Posted by Letter #131

Also so great was the Ring's power of lust, that anyone who used it became mastered by it; it was beyond the strength of any will (even his own) to injure it, cast it away, or neglect it. So he thought. It was in any case on his finger.

Interesting about the last quote: no one actually had the guts to destroy the ring by free will; Tolkien comments on the letters that no human could have achieve the actual destruction of the ring - throwing it in the fires of Mount Doom. It seems Sauron was right. Judging from the temptation on Gandalf, and the fact that the ring gives power according to his possessor's stature, I believe it is safe to say that even uncloathed maiar are affected. These lot has been susceptible to power from the beginning anyway

[me9996]

It seems to me that Bombadil is not effected by the ring simply becuase the ring doesn't apply to him.

It has no hold over it, but he cannot use it (Any use beond decoration at least)

I beleave it is once said the Bambadil is not of Middle Earth...

[brownjenkins]

I stand by what I said in this thread many years ago...

Everyone from Frodo to Gandalf had something more they wanted to achieve... aspirations for the ring to work it's evil upon. TB was 100% satisfied with his life as is, so to him, the ring was no more than a band of gold.

Tom had no desires for the ring to work upon.

[Insidious Rex]

Originally posted by Elfhelm
Just bringing this to the top for "old scholar".

Tom was a character in a children's poem. After the success of the Hobbit, JRRT was asked for another book. He originally suggested a reworking of Tom Bombadil. The idea must have stayed with him while he developed the LotR.

The children's poem was inspired by a doll brought back from the Netherlands by an aunt and rescued for the youngest boy after the older boy (now a priest) attempted to flush it down a toilet (?). The doll had a blue coat and yellow boots. It's really a cool topic.

yes!!! the Doll Theory rules!! *laugh*

[brownjenkins]

I think we need to talk about Tom Bombadil more often.

[carlrodd]

Originally Posted by brownjenkins

I think we need to talk about Tom Bombadil more often.

he is a great character. i used to reread the passage in the council of elrond about him over and over. middle earth role playing calls him a maia, and reinforces the idea that he was a shepherd of the woods that basically covered NW middle earth...the only remnants of which are fangorn and the old forest. he's so tied to the land though, that he would not leave the old forest.

[carlrodd]

double post

[The Dread Pirate Roberts]

I like the theory. It makes a certain amount of sense. That said, I don't think it is true.

[Noble Elf Lord]

Originally Posted by The Dread Pirate Roberts

I like the theory. It makes a certain amount of sense. That said, I don't think it is true.

Well it can't be true! Unless you can prove that Elrond was wrong: he said, during the Council of Elrond, that if Tom held the Ring until Sauron himself came, Tom would fall, and HOW THE H*** COULD THAT BE TRUE if Tom's a Vala? Not possible. And was it not always so that only Ulmo would ever truly contact the children of Iluvatar? This theory wasn't thought all the way through...

[Coffeehouse]

Originally Posted by Noble Elf Lord

Well it can't be true! Unless you can prove that Elrond was wrong: he said, during the Council of Elrond, that if Tom held the Ring until Sauron himself came, Tom would fall, and HOW THE H*** COULD THAT BE TRUE if Tom's a Vala? Not possible.

http://www.phil.unt.edu/~hargrove/bombadil.html

"In this sense, Tolkien says, Tom's presence reveals that there are people and things in the world for whom the war is largely irrelevant or at least unimportant, and who cannot be easily disturbed or interfered with in terms of it (Ibid., pp. 178-79). Although Tom would fall if the Dark Lord wins ("Nothing would be left for him in the world of Sauron," Ibid.), he would probably be "the Last as he was the First" (Rings, 1:279)."

[...]

"There are, for example, two Glorfindels in his history of Middle earth, one who died fighting a Balrog in the First Age, and another from Rivendell who lent Frodo his horse in the race to Imladris. This situation was, if not a problem, at least a bit unusual, and required special attention from Tolkien, since in general Elf names are unique to particular individuals. Rather than simply renaming one of the Elves, Tolkien concluded that they were the same person and that he had stumbled onto a rare case of reincarnation among the Elves. He then devoted some time to an examination of the theological implications of this special case."

Originally Posted by Noble Elf Lord

And was it not always so that only Ulmo would ever truly contact the children of Iluvatar? This theory wasn't thought all the way through...

http://www.phil.unt.edu/~hargrove/bombadil.html

"We know from the Silmarillion that Orome once hunted in Middle-earth, Ulmo had dealings with the Elves there, Olorin walked among the Elves unseen before he was Gandalf, and Melian spent a great deal of time in Beleriand with Thingol. There is thus ample evidence for occasional visits of such beings, even for the most frivolous or personal reasons."

[GrayMouser]

Yes, my main point was that Aule's character, his essence, was totally different from Bombadil's- Bombadil is a nature spirit, totally uninterested in things that are made. Wasn't it said that he would be an unsafe guardian for the Ring, because he would simply forget it or throw it away? Could Aule the Smith be so uninterested in one of the most powerful things ever forged?

Again, Gandalf says at the end of RotK that Bombadil wouldn't be interested in anything they'd done, except maybe visiting the Ents. Why would Aule be so empathetic to Ents, who were specifically created to thwart his own creations, the Dwarves?

[The Dread Pirate Roberts]

How about the clue that the Hobbits all had fairly vivid dreams in his house? Bring any other Maiar or Valar to mind?

[Coffeehouse]

Originally Posted by The Dread Pirate Roberts

How about the clue that the Hobbits all had fairly vivid dreams in his house? Bring any other Maiar or Valar to mind?

As far as I can recollect Frodo dreamt of a gate, a flattened, black land, with a large tower and a white-haired man on top, taken away by an eagle. I.e. Gandalf's escape from Orthanc.

Can't remember the other's dreams, but for one it involved water and a swamp.. I think

I didn't quite get your point DPR