Religious beliefs/Former Frodo and Sam thread

[afro-elf]

Hardly. we would end up like "A Brave New World."

brave new world was a book of fiction
it is not necessary or sufficent that condition that lack of religion = brave new world


I could just a well say that without religion we would be just like
STNG ( star trek next generation)


is anyone going to continue the challenge about the bible flaws?

[Mathron]

Afro elf: Glad you enjoyed my response, and I would say the same about yours.

The answer to induction is practicality of course - we continue in our daily lives because, even if it is not founded in strict logic, we nevertheless percieve it as logical and tha rational response to assume it to be true. Almost every basis for science is centered in assumptions, just ones that seem logical. We can't, for example, prove that the earth actually exists. Or rather, we can't disprove that, say, some powerful force merely manipulates us into thinking the earth exists.

But there are degrees of proof and faith. The question becomes whether there is reason to follow things of high faith/low proof as much as things of high proof/low faith (like science). Religion cannot really be disproven. It asks for a basis in faith - we cannot prove faith to be somehow inherently wrong. You use the example of an insane asylum, yet that does not truly relate. You cannot claim that ONE instance of a belief without proof represents all of them. As you yourself said - even if true a million times, a single instance is all that is needed to counter it.

If I were to believe in gravity on faith, that would not negate the existence of gravity! Just that same, people believing in religion on the basis of faith does not disprove (or prove) that religion. It is a personal choice on their part, and has the potentiality to be true.

In the end, we can not currently know what the 'big answer' is. I find it most likely to be something not yet discovered or imagined, but simply see this as probable - not guaranteed. I think that, because of this, there is no reason not to choose religion over science, or vice versa. They are all viable possibilities.

[Ñólendil]

Mathron and anduin are officially the coolest people in this thread I can probably do that, you know.

[samwise of the shire]

AFRO ELF!!!!!! *takes deep breath* I dont know what to begin with. I guess the fact that Eve came from Adams side and the fact that he needed a helper. God told each and everything on the earth to MULTIPLY and replenish the earth.
How can you have a child with an ANIMAL? You cant replenish the earth with an animal as a mate and you know it and those people who made that site knew it.
Women are put under mans subbjection. Man and WOMAN SINNED both of them and because of that they could'nt walk off with more then a slap on the wrist.
Adam had to plow the earth while having thorns and weeds sprout up in his path, and Eve was put under mans authority because she had led him astray and had given him the fruit, and as for child labor, is that a DISHONORABEL thing? For me that pain will be BLESSED because I KNOW I DISERVE it and that a child is coming into the world. But there is one thing that YOU and those people missed. At the end of his tyrade God told the serpent that from the WOMANS(gasp noticed I said WOMAN) seed a man would spring up and the serpent would bruise his heel but the serpents head would be CRUSHED by the very same heel it had bruised and do you know who that man was?It was the MESSIAH and he came from the WOMANS(gasp again)seed not the MANS so THAT insults to women was totally mute.
No God did NOT agree with poligemy, but just because man does it does'nt mean God agrees with it. Does God AGREE with Abortion? Just because he does'nt DO something about it does'nt mean he agrees with it. Think, I dont think God liked having to turn his back on Jesus his only son but because of HIS PROMISE to Adam and EVE(added the woman) and his LOVE for them his plan was carried out and the serpent was CRUSHED.

Now on to other matters. WTC one persons report. Planes crashed into the trade center another persons report:the planes crashed to the ground. Both are TRUE but ONE of them happened before the OTHER. Lets see. Judas Hanged himself and maybe when they found Judas the Rope had broken. And stop saying he fell from a cliff that's stupid and DUMB.
btw. Read the first few chapter of Genisis. That's where I got my answers.
The somewhat enraged
Samwise of the shire

[afro-elf]

IN A TOTALLY NON VEXED AND SLIGHTLY HUMOROUS MANNER.....

sam what you take as FACTS to me are nothing more than Fables

they ARE NOT FACTS



people do not argue over facts

the sun rises in the east. it doesn't matter if I believe it or not.
I don't have to pray that power will flow into my computer for it to work


you take the myths and fables of ancient people and elevate them to sacred text
you are begging the question

What is the "proof" ( may mathron forgive me) of what you believe

it SEEMS that you are inculcated with an idea that you accept on faith

FAITH DOES NOT EQUAL FACTS

when the ideas that I have expressed are based on a CONSILENCE of evidence


IF YOU READ MY POST I DID CORRECT MYSELF CONCERNING JUDAS

your example is just ad hoc reasoning ( a logical fallacy)


i kindly suggest that you go to the site posted and read and think about the "HUNDREDS UPON HUNDRED" of flaws in the bible


IF the book was seemless then you might have a shot at some kind of non faith based reasoning


but accepting a work flawed with errors just by faith to me is as you said was.....

my guess it that you are young " a teenager" If you wish to believe as such cool BUT if you really wish to "prove" your points
you need "to step up your game"

try reading some books on christain apolgetics even though I think that they are still flawed
this will arm you with "BETTER" arguments than what you have posted

i repeat
i kindly suggest that you go to the site posted and read and think about the "HUNDREDS UPON HUNDRED" of flaws in the bible

i gladly await your return when you are in "GAME SHAPE"

[afro-elf]

mathron


in defense of science over the problem of induction

I'll state that science on based on a consilence of knowledge


not just on one induction that will bring it crashing down

but it is a framework of many "inductions"

[afro-elf]

sam I'm a teacher by trade

as an educator I am acutely aware of the failings of the educational system

i see it in myself and in my students


my admonishments to you are to help you

of course I would like to see you come over to my side HOWEVER
I wish have to worthy adversaries

the better you are at presenting your ideas the better i have to be to defend mine AND vice versa


ex.

your WTC analogy is very poorly constructed

the account of judas is one man with two different accounts of dying from two different gospels


the WTC/Pentagon attack involved several planes upon several different targets saved for all posterity by modern media


the judas situation is like saying that
the SAME plane crashed into the WTC and The Pentagon

your ex. about the rope breaking is well as you said....


falling headlong to his death

and hanging are two different things

what he tried to hang himself and failed then the rope broke and the fall killed him

did he rise from the dead to kill himself twice

interesting is it not by your account that they didn't mention the broken rope around is neck

wonder why?

I have have read genesis with all of its flaws

thats why i don't believe it

[afro-elf]

inoldonil


you are a comic genius


now can I be cool now

can i please huh

[samwise of the shire]

Afro Elf you're on.

[samwise of the shire]

I made a mistake, I will read the idiotic dogma that's on that website but I want to say something first, what is'nt GOOD about the beauty of the world?What is the uglyness of the Human body BEFORE the fall. Notice all this gunk they were taking about all the BAD stuff happened AFTER Adam and Eve sinned. I will read the stupidity on that website but only to give my point. You're still on.
Samwise of the Shire

[Ñólendil]

Sorry folks, I seem to have made a mistake in my last post. I meant Mathron, anduin and afro-elf. I don't know how I missed that ... oh yes, and Darth Tater. He informed me of the mistake through Instant Message.

[Darth Tater]

I did? Well, if you say so...

Sam, try to stay cool, be nice or I'll have to forbid you to join in in entmoot debates. We debate, yes, but we don't flame.

[fireworks19]

Originally posted by Strange-Looking Lurker

Biggo wrongo! First off, the Bible is not to be translated, it is meant to be read. Second, what I read means the same thing as what you read: When the Bible says "Thou shalt not kill" it means that I shouldn't kill, and that you shouldn't kill. You can SAY it means whatever you want, but that doesn't change the fact that it means you shouldn't kill.

Just one thought and I stop. I don't want to get into this.

If the Bible is not to be translated, it would still be in Hebrew.

[ryan]

This could literally mean, if he takes your eye, take his, if he takes your tooth, take his, but if he hits you with [non-permanent damage], turn the other cheek.

[Darth Tater]

In a literal translation from the Hebrew it's "Thou shalt not MURDER". Killing in defense is forgivable. As a matter of fact, monks in the past went to war to defend their monasteries.

[afro-elf]

sam sam sam


you use quite a few adjectives such as: dumb, stupid, idiotic, and my personal favorite dogma in a productive manner.
HOWEVER, these adjectives SHOULD be used in a reflective sense


why you may ask

the burden of proofs rest upon your shoulders not mine

extraordinary claims demand extraordinary evidence


my reasons are based on a plethora of evidence that does not require belief

a consilence of knowledge

you do not have this

your entire belief system is based upon a logical fallacy: begging the question

using your adjectives is another logical fallacy called against the man

making disparaging remarks DOES NOT prove your point

it only belittles yourself and makes it obvious that you posistion is weak

also stating that the things that are wrong with bible are an after effect of the fall DOES NOT explain logical incosistantcies




ON THE TRANSLATION THING


Happy shall he be who takes your little ones
and dashes them against the rock!"
Psalms 137:9


well it seems that if your statement were true there would be no believers because they would have killed all of thier children

[Mathron]

Here is a question for you, Afro-elf: Why does the burden of proof rest on him? The tenent of faith is that it does not require proof. Obviously faith can not be held as evidence, simply a personal choice. But science can no more disprove God than religion can prove his existence. The indefite state thus is resolved individually through, once again, a matter of personal faith.

You mentioned earlier that science is valid since it is built on a system of inductive reasons. I contest this. We have shown that inductive reasoning has no rational basis in logic. Thus, no matter the structure, it cannot be used as evidence. No more than I can use any amount of irrational claims to prove a point. So here is your burden of proof - show me evidence of science that I can find no fault with.

[afro-elf]

mathron sam is a girl


logic is a tool it does confer actuality

an example would be zeno's paradoxes


just because induction has a logical short coming does not necessarily make for an existiential short coming

because faith does not require proof therein lies its weakness

sometypes of people try to sound all so wise by stating all things are relative

we might not know the thing intself

however you are a person, we are posting on entmoot, we can write the same language etc this "PROVES" that there is "some kind" of common reality

no matter the "weakness' of induction science WORKS in reliable ways

i made a long list in a e-mail about the gifts of science
they work i do not think anyone will argue that

do i pray for my computer to turn on. no I turn on the on switch.


faith is NOT relaible

if science and faith are equal why does science give reliable, repeatable, and predicative powers


if induction is SO falliable why does the list of all the sciences i gave work?

why hasn't faith done ANY of that?

the burden of proof is on her because it is an extrodinary claim

there are levels of feasiblity

if my phones rings and someone picks it up and says

afro-elf it's your mom very feasible


its vladimir putin well that is within the realms of possiblity BUT its pushing it.


its gil-galad wanting to recruit me for the Last Alliance

well the burden of proof is on the person claiming its gil galad. THEY
are making an extraordinary claim

if you have a child and your child is dying of a disease and I come up to and say mathron I have a secret potion that will cure your child

or you can go an get vaccaine that "known" through induction works

whatcha gonna do ( call ghost busters) sorry couldn't resist

you CAN NOT function without induction. your memory is about induction. washing your face, driving your car, an infinite amount of things in your life based on induction


NOTHING would "work" without induction

you can not say just because something has not been proven true/false that it is

faith means it doesn't need proof that is just the pathway to a hell of guillibility



logic has its limits

to call upon the problem of induction is to state there are no absolutes but that statement is an abosulate itself

that shows that there is a logical problem with the problem of induction itself



i patiently await your reply

[Darth Tater]

Sam, Afro Elf, I'm gonna ask this now, but soon I may have to enforce it as a rule. I think it would be a good idea for the two of you to step out of the debate for a while, take a breather. Others seem to be able to understand that they don't need to flame to get their point across, but you two are obviously having trouble with that. I'm not gonna make you stop, but it's my recommendation that you do so to avoid harsher punishment in the future.

[afro-elf]

Darth

I apologize if you thought I was in FLAME mode

I thought I was fairly tame.

I will pull in the reigns some more. ( sound of horses neighing in frustation)