What people think of Two Towers (*SPOILERS*)

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Gerbil
Another horrid flashback - Legolas shield-surfing down the stairs.
I don't care if it's 'cool', it was crap, stupid dire, awful etc.

I agree.

The note about Uruks + grenades is true enough - Saruman had foreseen what the problem would be at Helm's Deep and had worked his 'industrialised' magic to create gunpowder. That the arrows didn't bring down the Uruk with the flame I can put down to some of the Uruk bezerkers not knowing pain - IE unless one of the arrows was outrightly fatal, he could carry on (albiet with manky arms) and do his job.

I call him the "olympic torch runner" orc. Just picture the Olympic Theme song playing while you watch that scene again.

One thing that bothers me about Gullum - for living 99% of his life in a cave and having no contact with people - he knows an AWFUL lot about the history of the Ring. When he explains Saurons motives to Frodo and Sam- it sounds like Gandalf. Might be because I think most of those lines were Gandalf's (just reworked). I have to reread Two Towers - but I never got the impression that Gullum was so well versed in the history of the Ring.

I also agree with Gerbil -

If I hear that 'his version' one more time I'm going to scream.

I don't personally care if it's Jackson's version - I think most of his changes are crap and unnecessary.

Originally posted by Churl
Speaking for myself, I never use the phrase "Jackson's version" to imply that the film's creative liberties are now somehow part of the Tolkien canon. Instead, the films are — and always will be — imperfect approximations, adaptations, interpretations, etc. I doubt that even Jackson and his team would suggest otherwise.

As I've said before on other threads. After listening to the Directors commentary on FotR - I don't think that Jackson was ever a "TRUE" fan of Lord of the Rings and Tolkien. I think he just wanted to make a fantasy film and thought that Lord of the Rings would make a cool one. He does practically says this in the commentary when he talks about why he made the film. I don't think he made the film because he loved the book.

He knew that if he presented himself as a "diehard, obsessed" LotR fan - the TRUE fans would accept his version more. Also as I've said before - I think, and still do, that the only thing he really got right - was the scenary of Middle Earth.

NAZGUL at Osgiliath - I agree with everyone that said that this was weak. It was - first of all he wasn't even shot down - so why didn't he just go after the Ring? They're approach doesn't instill fear in anyone - it takes Frodo to say that "They're hear" for people to realize that the Nazguls had arrived. They instill fear on their arrival and makes Sauron's troops "fanatical" - but that wasn't indicated at all. I see no reason in Jackson's movies where the Nazgul are to be truly feared.

[Lief Erikson]

To me, the most common gripe people have with the movie is Faramir's being different from in the books. When I watched the movie for the first time, I felt the same way, and I didn't like the whole detour to Osgiliath thing.

The part where Aragorn falls off the cliff I didn't mind at all, and I thought Arwen was placed in very skillfully. To me, all of the special effects were incredibly well done, and the character development we see with everybody was very well done. Sméagol was great, Eowyn, Gimli, Legolas, etc. were all very well done.

The comic things with Gimli I didn't mind either .

So now that I've briefly gone over my enjoyement of everything, I'll come back to the primary gripe: Faramir.

It is true that he is quite different from in the books. To me, he seems both harder and weaker then the one in the books.

Nevertheless, his decision to take them to Osgiliath is pretty reasonable if you take into account that his life is forfeit if he doesn't. It increases the drama of his decision from what it was in the book, just as they increased the drama of everything, such as the Ents' decision not to fight and how close they came to being caught at the Black Gate come to mind immediately.

So that in part excuses Faramir, and he did shine through in the end. And he was strong enough not to take the Ring for himself before, in the cave.

The detour to Osgiliath ceased entirely to bug me after I started further analyzing the scene in my head, after seeing the movie. In the books, we hear that Sauron thought the Fellowship was all going to Minas Tirith, and that is why he attacks Minas Tirith. This detour to Osgiliath demonstrates much more plainly, and I think in a pretty neat way why he chooses to strike so quickly at Minas Tirith.

If the Ring is in Osgiliath, it is very close to Minas Tirith and it is logical that that Sauron would bring forth his strength in attack. That connection to events in the book Return of the King made that whole scenario much more fitting to me.



But I do find it a little of a pain that Faramir was less noble than in the books, and this is what I want to see: a big improvement of his character in RoTK. We need to see a reason why

Eowyn should fall in love with him and Denethor grieves so much for him.

We also need to get an attachment between Faramir and the audiences, so that people care a whole lot about Faramir's apparent death.

[Celebréiel]

Originally posted by Lief Erikson
It increases the drama of his decision from what it was in the book, just as they increased the drama of everything, such as the Ents' decision not to fight and how close they came to being caught at the Black Gate come to mind immediately.

But thats just the thing, if done right, they wouldnt have needed to increase the drama, those were probably my least favorit of the changes(putting them pretty low) The dramatic soap opera changes, Haldir, the ents, Faramir, Arwen and Aragorn, Frodo and the Nazgul and as ive mentioned before Gimli. The TT was naturally emotional and should have been kept that way. They didnt keep the feel of the book, it was like a totally different story loosely very loosely based on a book. Ok ok, im shutting up.
~Celebréiel

[Elvet]

I agree with alot that has been said already. I do think that this is much more a departure from the books than the first movie, but in a way that makes the film more coherent. I think Peter Jackson has done a great job of not letting the special effects run
off with the film. And he managed to juggle the 3 different story lines without it being too choppy.
Personal highs:
- the horses and riding stunts
- the Ents
- the personification of war seen in the women and children affected by the battle
- Frodo being influenced by the power of the ring
- Gollum
Personal lows:
- Gimli's goofiness
- Theoden's exorcism
- Elves at Helm's Deep (particularly Haldir's death scene) and lack of the Huorns at the end of the Battle
- Faramir's depiction

None of these negatives will stop my intended multiple viewings of the film, and I am awaiting in anticipation for the inevitable added scenes in the DVD.

[Gerbil]

What? You got free passes? We were just about to finish the 'exorcism' scene (you know the part where Gandalf points his staff and Saruman is thrown backwards) when the reel froze. We waited for a moment, then realized that that wasn't supposed to happen. While the movie people rushed to shut it off, the frame started getting red and orange spots on it and began to melt. We had to wait 15 minutes for them to splice off that 3-4 seconds. And no free passes. Oh well, it was good for a laugh anyway.

Man you really need to complain harder...
We were 'lucky' in as much that since it happened near the end, everyone came out seething.
The film was bad enough without people cocking it up.

Have to say - the buggering-up rate of playing TTT seems unduly high

[azalea]

I didn't mean to be so negative in my past post, but I just wanted to get my main gripes out of the way while they were still fresh in my mind.
I wanted to add that I really liked the coney scene, I'm glad he had that in there. As for Legolas' "skateboarding" episode, I think I would have thought it was really cool if it hadn't been such obvious pandering to the MTV viewership. I mean, if they just hadn't made it as if he were riding on a skateboard.

Re Gimli: If PJ had left a lot of the ent stuff in and had kept the Uruk scene at the beginning truer instead of making it so "dark," he would have had enough levity left in that Gimli's comic status would have been unecessary for the most part.

I can't believe people said they couldn't wait for it to be over, though! I was like,"What, that's it?" I could have watched it another hour! I do hope they include a lot more in the extended dvd!

People in my audience were laughing at Gollum, too. I really don't know that he was intentionally supposed to be funny at all the parts where they laughed. But I do think Jackson was really trying to build up sympathy for an unlikable creature in the very short amount of time he had to do that.
Oh, and there were plenty of people in the audience surprised when Treebeard opened his eyes! Hey, what did everyone think of how PJ included the lembas explanation for those who hadn't seen the EE? (With Sam saying that's all they had to eat.) I thought it was good, even though it didn't give an explanation of the properties of it.

edit: Oh, sorry I wanted to add one more thing -- I wasn't as impressed with the music in TTT as in FotR, but I did like the Rohan theme.

[Ërendil]

I loved the film, but some of the characters did have major faults.

I thought that King Theoden was meant to be a kindly old man, not the arrogant git that he was.
I didn't like Faramir - he was so horrible! I expected a kider character, not the nasty person that PJ potrayed him as.

During Helm Deep, I was shaking my head aso much - the elves shouldn't have been there. I didn't like Haldir's death scene either.

I thought that some people laughed in inapropriate places, especially when either Gollum or Gimli were involved.

I can't remember much more details about the film, but I loved the ents, Golum and the darker side of Frodo. I'll post more when I remember other stuff.

[azalea]

I actually liked seeing the elves show up at HD. I think it worked for the movie, especially because the movie going public was probably wondering why the elves weren't coming to help. If he had played up the fact that ALL elves were in the process of leaving ME, it wouldn't have worked, but I honestly don't think people got that. I think they thought (from talking to others) that just certain elves were going, and that the elf kingdoms were all staying intact. He didn't have time to highlight the war on other fronts, either, so he wanted to show that the war was affecting everyone, not just men, and that it wasn't just men that were doing the fighting. I thought Haldir's death scene was surprisingly well done, giving me a taste of what might have been if the same thought had gone into other moments in the film. His expression and the camera angle really bring home the fact that this immortal being had laid down his life for the "cause," and how powerful that as he goes down he sees the pile of dead men and orcs, and is aware that he is about to be one of the dead bodies piled there. It was disturbing to me, but in a good way, if you know what I mean. He will not be going over the sea, instead he will cease to exist, for all he knows.

[Churl]

Ërendil wrote:

I thought that some people laughed in inapropriate places, especially when either Gollum or Gimli were involved.

I think that some of the Gollum dialogue and nearly all of the Gimli dialogue was meant to be funny. So, in that sense, it was appropriate for the audience to laugh.

Was there too much comedy? In the case of Gimli, yes. I never got annoyed by Gollum, though, mostly because some of his funny lines came directly from the book (the "taters" exchange with Sam — loved it!), and the rest was more subtle than just another height joke.

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Gerbil
Man you really need to complain harder...
We were 'lucky' in as much that since it happened near the end, everyone came out seething.
The film was bad enough without people cocking it up.

Have to say - the buggering-up rate of playing TTT seems unduly high

Actually - what was nice was that no one complained about it. Everyone was easy going about the interruption and just took the time to stretch and go to the bathrooms. Then they made an announcement that because of the inconvience - after the movie they would be handing out free passes at the door.

[elvendrummer87]

when the nazgul were on the horses they were cooler. all in all, the movie ROCKED!!!! I loved Eowyn; I was afraid they'd ruin my favorite character but they didn't! Eomer was great too. Though Faramir was kinda not as nice as he was in the book. And were there elven archers at HElm's Deep? I don't remember. Oh well, if we start nit-picking then this thread will reach to the moon and back! lol

[Churl]

elvendrummer87 wrote:

Oh well, if we start nit-picking then this thread will reach to the moon and back!

Us?  Nitpick?  Never!!! &nbsp &nbsp

[Khamûl]

Originally posted by jerseydevil
I call him the "olympic torch runner" orc. Just picture the Olympic Theme song playing while you watch that scene again.

Now that you mention it, I had that exact same thought. All he needed was some more slow motion and "Chariots of Fire" playing in the background. Frodo's 'Poltergeist' moment was strange too... *demonic look* They're heeere...

[Gilraen]

Hello to all. This is my first post anywhere, ever, so if I violate any etiquette rules, let me apologize ahead of time.

Some have mentioned not liking the scene of Frodo's fall into the Dead Marshes. Actually, I thought it was an interesting scene, having Frodo fall into the water and be pulled out by Gollum. It reminded me of the image at the end of FoTR where Frodo pulls Sam out of the river. I don't know if it was Jackson's intent to have the scenes echo each other, to somehow illustrate the strong connection the characters have, but it got my attention.

Just a thought.

Please keep up the interesting and lively commentary!

[Khamûl]

Welcome to Entmoot Gilraen. Be sure to stop by the Welcome thread at the top of the General Messages forum. I hope you enjoy your time here.

[Varda Oiolosseo]

Yeah the Dead Marshes were really wierd! They were sort of how I imagined them too!
And the scene when Gimli was talking to Eowyn about Female Dwarfs was very funny!!! Especially when Aragorn says really quitely "It's the beards"!!
I was laughing soo much!

I found this film more humerous compared to FOTR!

I give it 12/10
I loved it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[bropous]

I only have a few minutes before work so I'll leave my nitpicking for later...

I just saw this film, and I loved it. It really moved the story along, and the new characters were quite compelling.

Gollum was unbelievable. I can't even express how impressed I am with Gollum, both the CGI character and the acting.

Treebeard and the Ents were fantastic, and the Storming of Isengard was for me the high point of the whole film.

Helms Deep was one of the most well-visualized medieval-style battles I have seen on screen.

I will go ahead and assert, though, had Jackson stuck to the book more faithfully, he would have produced a better film.

I think the storyline Jackson penned for the film meshes well with the prior film and sets up the anticipation for Return of the King.

I guess he'll release the trailer tacked on to the end of the film sometime in March....

What a movie.

[Gerbil]

I call him the "olympic torch runner" orc. Just picture the Olympic Theme song playing while you watch that scene again.

Excellent However, now I picture him running to the Chariots of Fire track by Vangelis

One thing that bothers me about Gullum - for living 99% of his life in a cave and having no contact with people - he knows an AWFUL lot about the history of the Ring. When he explains Saurons motives to Frodo and Sam- it sounds like Gandalf. Might be because I think most of those lines were Gandalf's (just reworked). I have to reread Two Towers - but I never got the impression that Gullum was so well versed in the history of the Ring.

Yup - Gollum simply feared Sauron as a rival - the whole war for ME meant nothing to Gollum, his life revolved around the Ring. Gollum and Sauron do seem to see each other in ways no-one else does. I think Gandalf says something along the lines that In Sauron, Gollum sees his fiercest rival (for the Ring) - hence Gollum will do anything to keep Sauron from it. And in Gollum, Sauron saw something he did not recognise - his indomitability even on pain of death, being that they were both consumed with their lust for the Ring. So it appears Gollum has been reading the local Mordor newspaper for info.

As I've said before on other threads. After listening to the Directors commentary on FotR - I don't think that Jackson was ever a "TRUE" fan of Lord of the Rings and Tolkien. ..... He does practically says this in the commentary when he talks about why he made the film. I don't think he made the film because he loved the book.

Bugger. I'm getting this for Christmas, so I'll have a listen myself. It would certainly tie in with my sneaking suspicion of PJ. In a way it makes FotR and TTT films more 'acceptable' because they are kind of how I'd expect people ignorant of Tolkien's work to come up with. Oh well

NAZGUL at Osgiliath

Along with the comment earlier in this thread about how Faramir and Co approaching from the east managed to go THROUGH the enemy and land on the west bank to then hold off the enemy (not to mention that then Frodo and Sam had to re-cross the river somewhere - which Tolkien repeatedly pointed out was only possible at Osgiliath other than travelling hundreds of miles either way (this was the main strategic point of Osgiliath and why Sauron's army was trying to capture it). Badly thought out. Pointless. Crap. etc.
Yup Nazguls appear to startle no-one. The Black Breath (I think?) came over a lot of men in Minas Tirith merely from being in proximity to the Nazgul - their very presence was enough to affect people up to the point of death. Here they are a bit of a novelty:

'Is it a bird? Is it a plane? Noo! It's a Nazgul! Errm... wossat - should I be scared?'

Originally posted by Devey
Why are people so hung up about Faramir. In my opinion it is Tolkiens Faramir that is totally wrong and Jackson got it absolutely correct. Tolkien expects us to believe that Faramir has the strength to resist the ring (so close to Mordor as well) yet the race of men have been shown to be incapable. Also even Gandalf and Gladriel were nearly tempted yet Faramir some how resists because he has made an oath...for goodness sake.......

The point is Boromir and Faramir are completed different. Faramir and Denethor have, by soem quirk of fate, nearly true blood of Numenor. Boromir does not (and indeed is one reason Denethor loves him more than Faramir, because he (D) and Boromir are so unlike). Boromir is detailed (at great length) as being strong willed, a person not only used to power, but desiring more, even if it was for the glory of Gondor. Such people are particularly susceptible to the lure of the Ring. Faramir, on the other hand, was far-seeing and wise. Denethor too - but he was brought down in another manner - by hard times and Sauron's controlling of his use of the Palantir. By the time of the war of the Ring, Denethor was still opposed to Sauron (as indeed Gonder was politically and historically), but he believed Sauron's victory was guaranteed. Faramir, on the other hand, was still in control of his own mind enough to refuse the Ring, seeing that the hopes of Middle Earth rested on this. Let's not forget that really it should have been Faramir as one of the 9 companions, not Boromir - Boromir took the task to himself even though Faramir had the recurring dream (Boromir had it once only). Denethor, favouring Boromir, let him go instead.
Would have been interesting to see how things would have turned out if Faramir had gone - Boromir's desire for the Ring ultimately turned to good, but who could have foreseen that at the time?

[sun-star]

I don't suppose I'll find anything to say that people haven't said already, but I don't care - I want to talk about TT, even if no one's listening!

Well, the problems are obvious: Faramir and Elves at Helm's Deep. And the strange, strange "death" of Aragorn - why? what did it achieve? I was very confused at that point! - and the exorcism of Theoden.

But why be critical? (Like that ever stopped me before ) I loved the film. I had higher expectations than for FOTR, and most them were fulfilled. I can even forgive Haldir getting in the way at exciting moments! Gollum was fantastic, not just as CGI but as a character too (though can't give Jackson the credit for that one) I never, ever thought I could feel so sorry for Gollum that I was angry with Sam - but I did in this film. I cried for Gollum. I couldn't believe it.

And the Dead Marshes - wow. Sure, the Ents weren't quite right for me and Merry and Pippin were as irritating as ever, but I forgive it. I'm happy!

[Gerbil]

Gollum was unbelievable. I can't even express how impressed I am with Gollum, both the CGI character and the acting.

You mean, of course, that Gollum was believable?

Originally posted by Khamûl
Now that you mention it, I had that exact same thought. All he needed was some more slow motion and "Chariots of Fire" playing in the background. Frodo's 'Poltergeist' moment was strange too... *demonic look* They're heeere...

You swine! I wrote my comment about Chariots of Fire over an hour ago, but only posted now cos dinner interrupted. Now I look like a plagiarist!

BTW - I think I made a mistake on it anyway - isn't Chariots of Fire the official Olympics tune? Oops