The Instrumentalists Thread

[Tessar]

Earniel, this girl is wonderful and has many videos on her youtube channel:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EX5sS...frOQbg&lf=plcp

[Rían]

That's nice

Do you notice her damping the string on the left side? I just can't do that yet

[Tessar]

Because of your shoulder or because it's an advanced technique?

[Rían]

It's an advanced technique. I'm used to placing and playing, but to damp, you have to get in a damping motion between placing motions, and also do it well so the strings don't make noise when you take your hand off.

Take a look at one of those Grainne Hambly links I gave - she does the most amazing damping - she kind of does this soft circle motion with her hand. It's absolutely mesmerizing to watch ...

I've tried, and I just can't get it down yet. But I'll just have to be patient with meself and do what I can when I can.

[Rían]

Originally Posted by Tessar

I think everyone can hear it, but some people are not aware of what they're hearing, and some others aren't as able to judge it. But I've been told by a couple of voice teachers that my ear for color and sound quality is really above average.

Well, that's a blessing! (and probably a curse, too, when you notice a bad instrument and suffer ... )

But lets get real. Without Rian I'd just be a chump with a dream. I do love getting your feedback. I've learned so much from your suggestions and comments already.



That sentence was bothering me. But I fixed it now. Hehe.

Aww, thanks ...

I am getting such joy talking harp with you guys! I'm just SO stinkin' weak and in pain that I just can't do much, and it's just been a huge blessing to talk with my Tolkien homies about something that I love And I'm so excited for you - with your musical experience and your piano experience, you'll pick it up really fast. And you won't even need to take that many lessons to be an advanced intermediate player - just start off right with lessons, and go from there. I probably only had about 15 lessons when I first started - just couldn't manage more between health issues and kids - and that was plenty to get me playing advanced intermediate pieces because of my own strong musical background. I mean, obviously, the more lessons the better, but don't worry about it too much AFTER you put in your first bunch to get yerself playing the right way.

[Tessar]

Originally Posted by RÃ*an

I am getting such joy talking harp with you guys!

I love it. Musicians and lovers of music are my peeps.

I'm just SO stinkin' weak and in pain that I just can't do much

because of my own strong musical background. I mean, obviously, the more lessons the better, but don't worry about it too much AFTER you put in your first bunch to get yerself playing the right way.

Yes I've been meaning to ask you about that. You've sort of made it sound in the past like you were the cute girl-next-door with a harp and a dream and now you're talking about inverting chords and rearranging things, and I'm like..... hang on....

What IS your musical background? Sounds like you've got more than a little music theory under your belt, which impresses me because I found music theory to be a real struggle to understand, even with classes. Actually it wasn't till long after my classes that I suddenly went, ".... OH I get it now."

[Tessar]

HOW COOL IS THIS?

http://youtu.be/IKzEpBycXFI

I love it. The penny whistle bothers me because it's like a sudden key shift when she switches from the harp to the whistle (because the whistle is not even in tune with itself >.<), but when I slap that part of my brain into being quiet and just enjoying... this little group is pretty awesome.

[Rían]

Originally Posted by Tessar

Yes I've been meaning to ask you about that. You've sort of made it sound in the past like you were the cute girl-next-door with a harp and a dream and now you're talking about inverting chords and rearranging things, and I'm like..... hang on....

Rats, blew my cover!Sorry, I didn't mean to mislead you. What made you think that? I guess maybe it sounded that way at first because the most important part of music to me by far is the beauty, and I talk about that a lot, but mainly I think because I didn't have anyone to talk harp with.

What IS your musical background? Sounds like you've got more than a little music theory under your belt, which impresses me because I found music theory to be a real struggle to understand, even with classes. Actually it wasn't till long after my classes that I suddenly went, ".... OH I get it now."

Like many children, I was forced to take piano lessons for a year, and I am eternally grateful. I stopped after a year, though - wasn't interested in lessons. I learned enough to take pretty much any intermediate piece that I liked and learn to play it. However, my teacher just taught me to read music, and never explained WHY the sharps and flats fell as they did. I thought it was just a random thing that a piece with one sharp happened to have that note be an F.

A youth minister at church was a great guitar player, and was dating my sister so he taught me the minimal basics of guitar. I got a guitar and took it to college with me, where I sometimes helped play for our youth group. I was never that interested in guitar, though - just learned enough to accompany songs.

After graduating and moving back home and starting full-time work at a radar company as a software engineer in the research division (really fun!), I took up piano again. The teacher I found was a-MAZE-ing! One of those guys that could play totally by ear in any key. And for the first time, I was taught music theory, and it just blew the music world wide open - things made SENSE now! I'm good at math and science and languages, and it's common for those types of people to also be good at music, and the theory just came naturally for me, and helped me tremendously. I learned common chord patterns (I, IV, V, etc.) and things like that because I wanted to be able to play like him.

Well, no way - I'm just not a piano player, and I'm DEFINITELY not a performer. It scares me to DEATH to play in front of anyone, and I completely lose it. I can have a piece down cold, and then if I try to play it to someone, even family members, I typically lose it somewhere around halfway and just come to a screeching halt. So I played piano for a while again, really enjoyed the theory, and then stopped after a year or so, realizing that I would just never be a good piano player at all. It was fun playing, but not fun enough that it was worth the sustained effort to stay fluent with pieces.

Then years later, my mom decided to take up the harp on her 60th bday - it was a dream of hers, and my dad, God bless him, gave her a stunning full-size lever harp. She also got a Celtic harp, and started lessons, and played at Mass during the week. She's more of a singer, though, and NOT an instrumentalist, so she just plays the harp to accompany herself. The harp was interesting, but I had no desire to play it.

Then one day I heard some Celtic music on the harp, and it just blew me away. And I think the LOTR movies starting coming out, too, IIRC (I had read and liked the books years ago, though). I had this burning desire to play Celtic music on the harp, and luckily for me, my mom had 3 harps! the monster lever, the Celtic, and a little travel harp. I borrowed the travel harp and just fell in love with it. I'm good enough to be able to play a piece I like and figure it out myself, so I did that with a few of the pieces I heard. Then we started thinking about getting my own harp, and that's when I came to Sylvia Wood's store, and she told me "Get ... lessons ... NOWWWWWW!!!!! or you will never be able to play well." I was playing the harp like a piano.

I found a good teacher who was just the style I wanted, and started lessons, and had a great mix of theory and playing which was just what I needed. I finally had to stop because I just couldn't make the time to do it anymore, but I had enough lessons to learn how to play correctly.

I just love playing my harp - it's such a ... I don't know, a sensual and personal instrument - you hold it in your arms, and it rests on your shoulder, and you can feel the music in your body. Piano was good for me and I'd recommend a year to everyone, and it was invaluable for harp, but I don't have a desire to play piano. I just want to play my harp

Apparently I'm not bad (before the surgeries came) - my favorite compliment was when my middle son and his friend were upstairs playing a video game, and I was playing my harp downstairs. His friend walked downstairs and saw that I was playing and stopped and said "Whoa! That's YOU playing! I thought it was REAL music!" (i.e., the radio or a CD or something)

Anyway, that's my background. Being a math person, I really enjoy the theory, and the theory really gives you so much more to work with. For me, the theory is the skeleton that the body of music hangs on and takes off from. It's helpful for me to pick up a piece and identify the key and the scale (love those odd little Celtic scales, like the Myxolydian!) and the major chords. But then, I'm a total nerd! But I still can't play in front of people - I play for my own pleasure. Every once in awhile, my husband will peek in and say "That sounds nice!" or something, but I just can't play if I know someone is listening! I kind of wish I could, not because I want them to think I'm good, but because I want to share the beautiful music with them. Maybe you performers could give me some tips on that! But still, I mainly just want to play at home for myself - it's relaxing and peaceful and healing to my soul.

Wow, that was long ...

EDIT - also, what helped me tremendously for theory/arranging for the harp (chord inversions, etc) was Sylvia Woods' book "Music Theory and Arranging Techniques for Folk Harp" - I highly recommend it!!!

[Rían]

Speaking of piano, here's my all-time favorite piano piece - it just blows me away. When I hear a good version played, I have to sit down or I would just fall over, I think! I would love your opinion (although I know that different pieces are special to different people) - actually, the opinion of everyone on the thread here. It is just that moving to me - makes me wonder how if affects other people. It's Chopin's Berceuse.

Here's one version played by: Barda and another by Cziffra

[Rían]

last post of the night, I promise!

I forgot to add that the other reason that I like theory so much is that it helps me to arrange - I like to arrange my own pieces. I hear something I like, and I'll figure it out, then I'll change it to how I like it better. And theory helps - it helps to know that if you want a different sound, you can substitute a III for a V, or whatever it was (I forget what the exact number was now - but it made a really nice difference in my version of "She Walked Thru the Fair" )

[Tessar]

Originally Posted by RÃ*an

I just can't play if I know someone is listening! I kind of wish I could, not because I want them to think I'm good, but because I want to share the beautiful music with them. Maybe you performers could give me some tips on that!

This is my suggestion...

Well, two suggestions. First one, if you really want AMAZING tips and tricks on how to be able to perform in front of people, go buy "Power Performance for Singers!" It actually has next to nothing to do with singing and everything to do with PERFORMING. It's an entire book full of nothing but tips and tricks for dealing with emotional and mental blocks to performing. You can check a bit of the first chapter out here: http://books.google.com/books?id=R70...page&q&f=false

My simpler suggestion, if you don't have $40 to spend on a book .... is focus on the music and embrace your playing. My suggestion would be to go get your husband, make him sit down in front of you, and then you look him in the eye and say, "I'm going to play this piece for you till I get it right," and then do just that. Play it for him, make mistakes, have to start over, take a minute between phrases to gather yourself if you have to... but above all accept the fact that you'll make mistakes, and just get through the piece any way you can.

Once you can accept the fact that you're playing for someone and, oh God, completely screwing some things up here and there... stop thinking about the other person and do your best to focus on JUST the music. The best advice I can offer to get to that place is to imagine that you're screaming the melody line and that's all you can hear. Let yourself get swept into that line and melodic pattern. Take deep, passionate breaths as though you're still singing that melody at the top of your lungs even while you inhale.

Sometimes when I play piano and I'm getting distracted, I yell the melody in my head on syllables like, "DA DA DEEEEEEEEE DA DA DAAAAAAA DEEE DEEEEEEE," and exhale through my nose like I'm singing the phrase through my nose.

Then you need to start playing with the most absolutely perfect musicality you can. You need to play those wrong pitches INTO the melody. Don't jump around trying to get back into the right pitches and lose your sense of the melody, keep playing even if you end up playing two measures that are a complete trainwreck and you don't get a single note or rhythm correct. Make it a musical trainwreck.

Aside from yelling the melody to yourself when you start to lose focus, I highly, highly recommend breathing the way you want to play the phrases. For a long, slow phrase, take a long, slow breath WHILE playing the phrase. Or exhale over the length of the phrase, and take a sudden, deep breath as you reach the peak of the phrase as though you're smelling the most beautiful flower you've ever seen... breath in the beauty of the peak of the phrase.


... so that's my suggestion. Doing that kind of stuff can definitely lead you into "over-performing" a piece, but you know what? I don't even care. I love the feeling of just digging into a musical phrase. It's like riding the crest of a never-ending wave... and you feel a clutch in your chest as you pull the music out of whatever instrument you're playing, and although there's a part of you that realizes the little technical things you're doing and is aware of what's going on around you, at the same time it's like there is absolutely nothing else in the world but you and that musical phrase... it's like you could reach out and touch the music physically, and it's lifting you up, and up, and up.

[Tessar]

I think this is a perfect example: http://youtu.be/zNbXuFBjncw

Yo-Yo Ma playing "The Swan."

After 40 seconds in they actually show his face. Just look at him... I could be 100% wrong, but all my money is on a bet that he is "singing" that melody line with every single fiber of his body, and that he's singing that melody line in his head and focusing on nothing but that. I'm sure he's peripherally aware of his surroundings, but 95% of his focus is probably on that melody.

People always love to say, "gee I wish I could play like that," when talking about a master performer, and the truth is that we probably never will... but what they overlook is that you can FEEL the exact same way the masters get to feel... by focusing on absolutely nothing but that phrase of music. And even if you can't have a master's technique, you can have a master's musicality, and that will make the music perfect in a way that the world's best technique can't.

I would rather have a piece of music that makes me feel something because it's played with total passion, but has mistakes in it, vs. something played perfectly with no emotion because it's all technique and no musicality.


That's why it boggles me when people say, "I can't play an instrument. I have no talent and no coordination to play with two hands." I have spent countless hours at the piano enjoying playing nothing but the right or left hand part of a piano piece... just sitting there and pulling something that I want to hear out of the instrument.

I encourage everyone... if all you can afford is a penny whistle, or one of those little lap harps (psalters? the little things with like 15 strings that are shaped like a triangle with horizontal strings across it), or a ukulele, or WHATEVER. Humming. Anything.... I always say GO FOR IT. Even if you'll never play more than a few little melodies, you can derive so much enjoyment out of just playing a simple melody with 100% of your own, personal emotion and what you feel from the music. It's like no other feeling I've ever had, and I wish it was something I had realized much earlier in my musical studies.

[Rían]

That video of Yo-Yo Ma is amazing He was one of the musicians playing at the 9/11 memorial/dedication ceremony last week. I can't even remember what he played, but he played the same way, and that was what was most beautiful.

Thanks for the tips - I think playing in front of my husband is a good idea, and just embracing even the failures, as you said - putting even the wrong notes into the melody. That's partly why theory has been so exciting to me - I didn't realize that a piece (unless it's totally abstract) has a form - that it's in a key, and, say, a G will be a natural part of the piece, so if I foul up, I can just kind of search around G for my place.

Maybe I'll start by playing in front of the dog first then I'll move up to my daughter's guinea pig But seriously, I think you're right, and I think my husband and kids would be willing to help. I like the just keep trying until I get it right - eventually, I'll just have to get it right, and once I make all the mistakes and realize that it hasn't made anyone die or the world to end, maybe I'll relax enough to play it right.

I don't have a problem getting into the piece, but I thought that was part of my problem! I remember years ago doing folk dancing, which I adored (esp. the Balkan pieces). We actually went and performed on stage once - some German dances for a local Mozart festival. I was, frankly, the best female dancer there *modest look* and was dancing with the best male dancer. I got, I hate to say, kinda proud of how good I was. Well, we got up on stage and started dancing - I wasn't even nervous about it, I knew it so well. It was unusual in that it was a circle dance instead of a line dance - we would move around in a circle, and then stop in place and do some complex moves. Well, during the best part of the dance (the part where we stopped and did the complex moves), I always ended up in back! Finally, FINALLY one time I ended up in front. I can still remember coming into position and the last few notes, then looking at my partner, starting to take a step - and COMPLETELY forgetting what came next! He just started at me, waiting for me to give him my hand so he could do his part, and I stared back, as the people around us danced. Finally he grabbed my hand and just kinda pushed me around until I finally remembered where I was in the dance. it was horribly embarassing - and I made him look bad, too.

Afterwards, as I thought about it, I thought that the PROBLEM was that I was totally immersed into the fun and enjoyment of the dance, and wasn't thinking ahead.

Another time was when I finally did try to play the harp for someone. There was this young girl from church that I was mentoring, and we grew really close and I was able to really help her in some big ways. There was a piece of music - well, actually it was "She Moved Through the Fair" - that just reminded me of her, esp. the way I had arranged it. Near the end of our time together (she was getting ready to move to Alaska and marry her boyfriend), I really wanted to share that piece with her because it reminded me so much of her, esp. the way I kind of invented and arranged the ending. I told her that I wasn't good at performing but I wanted to give it a try. And I played ... and it was gorgeous and wonderful and powerful and beautiful. I started small and simple, and worked up to wonderfully complex and strong, then moved to the ending - lightly moving up the strings to a lovely little arrangement at the top flying off into the stars ... teensy pause before the final, poignant chord ... and I forgot the final chord! The pause grew longer until I finally had to say something. I tried a few chords - they were way off. I tried backing up a few phrases - nothing worked. I could NOT remember the final chord! Finally I just apologized and said I wish I could play for her, but I just am not good at that. Later, I thought, this was the same thing that happened with the folk dancing - I got totally caught up in the music to the point where I forgot what came next.

Then to complete the picture - once, between these two disasters, when I was doing ballet (just simple adult ballet, but I got on pointe - such fun!) I decided that I would perform just to try to redeem myself from my folk dance failure. I got on stage, and I made it thru the performance. But I didn't let myself get caught up into it, either. It was just a grim "I'm going to get this right!" kind of thing. And I did, but ... I don't know ... I felt good that I had done the piece well, but I certainly didn't enjoy it very much.

So for you, what's the balance? Or maybe it's different for everyone? I love getting into the performance, but hate forgetting the pieces! And I made it thru the ballet, but it wasn't so much a performance as a technical "I'm going to do this, and here's the next step".

[Tessar]

Sounds to me like the problem is that when you blank, you don't know how to "fill." There's a saying in theater, and it's "Better to be Wrong and Strong, than Right and Weak." i.e. if you don't know what to do next just do anything and do it boldly.

Back when I was in the music program, I was supposed to sing, "Dearest Baby Doe," from "The Ballad of Baby Doe." It had a High E in it, and I was so anxious about it... the day I was supposed to perform it for my studio I wasn't feeling well, and as I approached the phrase I knew there was no possible way I was going to make it up to the E... so I sang up to a B and stopped there, just "chanting" the next two high notes on that B.

It would have been perfect, but I was so mad at myself that I apparently scowled, and then everyone realized I had done something wrong.


Lets say in your dance, instead of freezing you could have spun, or filled in with a little dance move that put your back to the audience and mouthed, "What comes next?!" at your partner.

When you played for the girl, instead of searching for that last chord you could've just played a single note... and if that was wrong, you could've used it as a grounding note to work your way up/down a string or two till you found the right note.

I'm not saying those things like, "You fool, it's so obvious," because it's really not. It's so easy to get hung up in, "I did it wrong, that's not how it was supposed to be," that you completely forget, "I played 99% of that AMAZINGLY."


My other thought is that it's a little different to just be into the music vs. really singing that melody (or even singing all of the parts in your head). Both can be really powerful, but when you're just in the music I believe you are more likely to make mistakes.

If it helps, try singing the pitch names in your head instead of on syllables like I do. Like, "C... D... G... G... Bb... C..." or even the note and chord, "C with C major, passing to D, G with G major, G... Bb passing up to C with C major..." but of course sing it with the same passion.



I'm glad you gave the examples you did, because you said two really significant things. Think about them out of context and I'll rephrase them: "I was grimly determined to do it right no matter what." vs. "I told her I was going to TRY... but I wasn't good at it, so I made sure to warn her ahead of time."

What you think, and even more so what you say, has an incredibly powerful effect on what you do. For example if you say, "I won't forget to buy milk," ... you're probably going to forget to buy milk, because your brain picks up, "I forget to buy milk... forget to buy milk...." vs. "I am buying milk." Your brain picks up, "buy milk, buy milk," and you're much more likely to remember.

So, "I won't screw up," will probably become, "I screw up," vs. "I am going to do this right if it's the last thing I do." becomes, "I am doing this right."

Even more powerful, "I'm going to try (but geeze I'm probably gonna screw it up, I hope I don't screw it up, please don't screw it up,"... well what chance for success do you have then?




Another thing that's important to remember is that some people are going to completely hate what you do no matter what you do, and some people are going to completely love what you do no matter what you do. A while back I sang a solo, and it wasn't very good, but some people at the church just adored it. The other night I sang the Beethoven solos and got SO many complements, and felt like I did a good job... and the only thing my voice teacher said was, "You're singing your "ae" vowels wrong." I love him, but there is no possible was I could sing something up to his standards. I strive for it, but I'm not surprised or put off when I don't impress him.

The people who love music will love what you do, and you don't need to worry about anyone else.

[Rían]

thank you for the tips - I'm excited to start playing in front of willing victims The "fill" idea is exactly what I needed, and the theory will give me good ideas for what will work.

And as for you, get yourself this music theory and arranging techniques for folk harp book by Sylvia so you can start reading and enjoying and learning and passing the time until the stork comes with your very own harp! She has wonderful ideas about chord inversions and arrangements and stuff - that's where I got a lot of my knowledge.

[Rían]

here is another great harpist ... you need to listen to this!

[Tessar]

Originally Posted by RÃ*an

thank you for the tips - I'm excited to start playing in front of willing victims The "fill" idea is exactly what I needed, and the theory will give me good ideas for what will work.

Another important thing to remember is that we perform what we practice!!! Don't practice mistakes, of course, but more importantly spend time practicing as if you were performing. Before I sing a solo I practice it standing and moving just the way I want to when I perform it. If I make a mistake, I keep going, etc.

Another important thing to remember: Performance is a skill that has NOTHING to do with your actual musical ability. I have seen people with amaaaaazing voices that can sing an aria like an angel, but they totally crumble in front of an audience... then people with voices that are not as good, but when they get in front of an audience they sparkle.

And as for you, get yourself this music theory and arranging techniques for folk harp book by Sylvia so you can start reading and enjoying and learning and passing the time until the stork comes with your very own harp! She has wonderful ideas about chord inversions and arrangements and stuff - that's where I got a lot of my knowledge.

OKAY! Hehehehehe.


Unfortunately I think the harp is going to have to wait. I mentioned my plan to my dad the other day and he made an odd comment that made me suspicious, and then tonight I overheard my mom talking to a friend over the phone and it sounds like their savings are running out. I hope my dad finds a job very soon. Till then, I think it's probably a better idea for me to hold off on all major purchases and hang on to my money.

[Rían]

oh, I'm sorry to hear that Stupid economy! Prayers for your family, and maybe you can at least get that book and do some reading Do you think you can afford the lessons? If so, can you rent a harp for a small enough fee?

[Tessar]

Originally Posted by RÃ*an

oh, I'm sorry to hear that Stupid economy! Prayers for your family, and maybe you can at least get that book and do some reading Do you think you can afford the lessons? If so, can you rent a harp for a small enough fee?

Thank you... I know that things will work out. I do believe everything happens for a good reason. I don't think I'll rent a harp till my dad has a job. It it comes down to it, I would prefer to have my resources available to help my parents.

Since I cannot practice I'm not sure there's a point to taking the lessons... but I think I'll try for at least a half hour each week. We'll see!!!

I'm working on some arranging on the piano for harp. I'm going to get that Sylvia Woods book to help me.

[Varnafindë]

Originally Posted by Tessar

Varna, I could kiss you. Did some googling and had to do a little sluthing but Eivind's name lead me to figure out what you're talking about.

HOW COOL!!!! I had never heard of this before. This completely blows my mind!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BhZpvGSPx6w

This youtube video explains it somewhat and gives neat visual references.

Thank you!
I'm so pleased to have made you enthusiastic about pure tuning.

Here's one comment to that youtube video:

I love math, and I love the a priori of harmony with or without knowing the ratios. With just intonation, low whole-number rations have a particular consonance, and the math helps us to understand it, work with it, and maybe find more pleasure.

My dad says that he didn't understand musical theory until he realized that it was all maths, - then it fell into place.
He learned it at teacher training college in the early 1950s, btw - so did I, only twentyfive years later.