Discussion Thread Number 3 Of Wraiths-Kings-Friends-Rings Campaign

[Gordis]

GW, The One is lying at the bottom of the Anduin. It is CANON. We all know it, if our characters didn't.

Please, don't go too far here.

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by Lotesse

Oh! I've been meaning to ask my fellow Nine, I have a question - can we "overhear" each other's thought projection conversations? For instance, could Buz overhear Lilly verbally "sticking her tongue out" at Udu? Could he hear her thoughts to Udu? I've always wondered about this, just between the Nazgul, not humans or elves. Gordis?

I think the answer is NO. At least that is how I understand Osanwe-Kenta.
If two persons are talking and don't wish to be overheard, they will not be.

But there can be three-sided or many-sided conversations (like between Gandalf, Celeborn, Galadriel and Elrond with sons on the way back to Imladris).

Soon Celeborn and Galadriel and their folk would turn eastward, ... and here they lingered still in converse with their friends. Often long after the hobbits were wrapped in sleep they would sit together under the stars, recalling the ages that were gone and all their joys and labours in the world, or holding council, concerning the days to come. If any wanderer had chanced to pass, little would he have seen or heard, and it would have seemed to him only that he saw grey figures, carved in stone, memorials of forgotten things now lost in unpeopled lands. For they did not move or speak with mouth, looking from mind to mind; and only their shining eyes stirred and kindled as their thoughts went to and fro."

So if Lilly projected her thought BOTH to Udu and Buz, then Buz will know what she said.

I am not quite sure of my knowledge here, though.
Udu, can you, please, help?

[Rían]

Oh, it had never occurred to me that Elladan and Elrohir would be in that conversation before, but that makes sense. I can't even remember now if they were listed at the wedding - were they? It's time for a re-read of LOTR ...

[Lotesse]

I know; just the other day I was thinking the same thing. Definitely time for a re-read of LotR for me, as well.

Rian - how was your Thanksgiving? I thought of you during Thanksgiving, thinking you must have had all KINDS of relatives doing dinner! Since you're the one mooter I instantly equate with the idea of "family," you know? Hope you had a great day!

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

I agree with Gor. The main reason for thought communication is so you can not be overheard. If you could be then it would be pointless when in the company of those who have the power to communicate via thought.

[Lotesse]

That's what I was assuming, but I just wanted a definitive answer to be sure, 'cause I never asked before & I always wondered about that. Thanx you guys!

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

Nice post Lotesse. I like the way Buz paid for Udu's, Jas', Bumbleodre's, Lily's and his own food and drink!

[Gordis]

Very nice post, Lotesse! Oh mischievous Lilly and Buz the steadfast! I believe Lilly and Buz will not be heard about till Tuesday!

And Rian, I liked your post, and yours, LMM and Shah.

[Lotesse]

Thanx you guys! Yeah, Buz is loaded; he's got money and he never has a problem spending it, especially on food & drinks. He's really laid back that way. Now all he wants to do is go home & get down & dirty with his amour. Hopefully they can get through the next few hours without any more troublesome moments due to Lil's constant minor-problem-causing tendencies!

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

Well first Lily has her interview with Barliman. Let's hope she doesn't let anything slip.

[Lady Marion Magdalena]

LMM,, I am a bit confused by one sentence in your post:...

Whoops, teach me to try to post without re-reading the last bits involving my character.

I think she was assuming that the Chancellor would have guessed/known that a student denied by him would probably be advised to go to her. Considering their past conversations it's not that brilliant of a guess. More along the lines of her not feeling terribly charitable towards the Chancellor, knowing that the feeling is mutual and reading between the lines.

I'm glad you like Fionne Lotesse, she's a teacher, the kid's aren't hers, but she does act rather like a mother doesn't she.

[Lotesse]

(answer 2 TD) Hoo boy. I forgot about that. I sure hope she doesn't, too! She'll probably handle it O.K., she's most likely not ALWAYS negligent and careless, or she'd never have lasted so long as one of the Nine. We didn't get this far being constantly careless, after all, and I have faith in Lil's abilities! Or Buz & Viv do, anyway!

[Gordis]

Well, BB came to Orrodel at 10.30AM. Is he still "inverstigrating" at 6 PM???
If he is, he is the most dedicated copPER!

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

I think that the time scale for this afternoon went quite pear shaped for us Orrodel folk.

[Gordis]

Well, not really. I believe if BB wants Lilly, he will have to look for her on Tuesday.

[Udukhaturz]

Originally Posted by Gordis

So if Lilly projected her thought BOTH to Udu and Buz, then Buz will know what she said.

I am not quite sure of my knowledge here, though.
Udu, can you, please, help?

According to Osanwe-kenta by J.R.R. Tolkien, "Pengolodh says: 'Only great minds can converse with more than one other at the same time; several may confer, but then at one time only one is imparting, while the others receive'."

Does Lilly fall in the category of "great minds?"

[Lotesse]

I like to believe that all of the Nazgul, with the ONLY exception of the Morgul Lord being superior, are equally able across the board when it comes to thought projecting & mind reading, because it just makes better sense that way. While each Nazgul has his or her own special, unique gifts and talents, some things should be universal to all, and be a common denominator in the world of being a Nazgul. Maybe some utilise his or her thought-communicative skills more or less frequently than another, but at the end of the day shouldn't the ability in itself be equally available to each of the Nine?

[Udukhaturz]

Originally Posted by Lotesse

I like to believe that all of the Nazgul, with the ONLY exception of the Morgul Lord being superior, are equally able across the board when it comes to thought projecting & mind reading, because it just makes better sense that way. While each Nazgul has his or her own special, unique gifts and talents, some things should be universal to all, and be a common denominator in the world of being a Nazgul. Maybe some utilise his or her thought-communicative skills more or less frequently than another, but at the end of the day shouldn't the ability in itself be equally available to each of the Nine?

Reading minds is not so easy in Tolkien's world, because the concept of Unwill will kick in at any time. There has to be the willingness to have the mind read or entered, or the mind will throw up the door of "unwill" and no one can break it, except Eru. Say Nazgul 3 does not want Nazgul 4 to read his mind; Nazgul 3 will throw up the roadblock of unwill. Nazgul 3 can be "broken" by some process, ie, torture, intimidation, gifts, friendship, etc, and "give in" to allowing his mind to be read, but never forget that without some outside thing, torture, etc, no one is getting into an unwilling mind.

"Nonetheless any mind may be closed (pahta). This requires an act of conscious will: Unwill (avanir). It may be made against G[uest], against G[uest] and some others, or be a total retreat into 'privacy' (aquapahtie)."

"No mind can, however, be closed against Eru, either against His inspection or against His message. The latter it may not heed, but it cannot say it did not receive it".

With the Nazgul, however, is the quotent of the Rings. Sauron can read their minds because they have given over their minds to him to be read if he is in the mood to read it.

However, whether Nazgul can shield their minds or participate in group discussions is an unknown, since Tolkien never wrote anything about how the Rings influence Onsanwe-kenta among Nazgul. I think it could go both ways, depending upon the story and what everyone wants.

[Gordis]

Very interesting, Udu. Thank you for this message.

I believe Tolkien made it pretty clear how Osanwe Kenta works "lawfully" among Elves.

But Pengolod doesn't speak about nazgul at all. I believe you are right that, by accepting the Rings, the nazgul have given Sauron, the wielder of the One, the right to read their minds whenever he wishes, as well as the means to communicate with them.
But, I believe, that the common Rings make nazgul more vulnerable and open to each other as well, they certainly facilitate the communication between them. So one nazgul can read other nazgul's thoughts more easily, than an elf. But probably not against one's will (unless it is supported by spells and torture).

As for mind-projecting to 2 persons at once... Why not, I say, provided that all the 3 are nazgul. Or, may be, not. As you like .

[Butterbeer]

Originally Posted by Udukhaturz

With the Nazgul, however, is the quotent of the Rings. Sauron can read their minds because they have given over their minds to him to be read if he is in the mood to read it.

mmm.. has Dr.Udu read the semi canon of Lord Olmer, i wonder?

or dipped into the once and future controversy of strawberries and champagne, supersonic stallions and ..er.. gor's birthday party??

regarding the Watch .. constable BB ... no way he's hanging around all that time, he'll probably give up on Arastud for now, go have a snooze and maybe have a chat with 'im tommorow??

besides, at this point he has no reason to talk to lilly ... it's his understanding from the "every cloud has a silver lining" undertaker Mr Dwimmerbusy that Rian was the lady in charge of organising the Household staff ... so far i guess he's rather nonplussed by khamul's red-herrings, largely because he doesn't even know yet they are relevant ... or not ...

besides the lazy git hasn't really had a proper chat with Zimra yet, let alone Ararstud ....

i'd always assumed the nazgul chose specifically who they mind talked to, otherwise it would have read differently ... one can try and pick things up, but as Doctor Udu said, tis a tricky thing to do if not welcomed .... and there speaks a man of medical pedigree ...

so, going back to rian .... well if Earniel should not be allowed around guns or anywhere near any coppers .... Valandil will have an honoury, english bother-boy image ...

i have picked one for myself in a similar vein, but have not decided on the other "counter-balance" anti wizard of milan stereotyping syndrome pic ... i.e people willy nilly donning overly large n' heavy concrete boots jumping in there from great heights regardless, to daft conclusions on less than absolutely ANY evidence whatsover ..... and then wondering when they go "splash!" feet first into the cold waters of confusion ... though, when / if you saw this cartoon, you'd understand what i meant!

when/if you ever see it ( IF rian ever gets back about it ... *mutters darkly* ) .... you'll know whereof i speak ...


.. which, OK, might make a nice change ... i grant you ...


now, where was i??

*starts humming*

oh yeah ...fleets and tensions between the north and south???

ideas on a postcard please ....

Doc (GW, btw not Udu) ... yeah, could technically be the one in terms of irony and humour, that somehow got completely overlooked under everyone's noses and somehow cast back into the river later .... but i suspect there might be a touch of opposition - y'know, like last time ... ... gotta admire you for keeping on keeping on .... but i DO like the idea some very obscure early minor ring is around ... could cause a stir ... lots of interesting possibilities ...