Bush addresses the world- Pending War

[Dúnedain]

Funny thing Russia wanted to lift sanctions while Saddam was in power, now they don't want to lift them. Some fishy things going on...

[Coney]

I'm amazed that this is surprising you all...........several countries have deep financial commitments post-sanctions.....and we all knew that the oil would be the under the legal ownership of the UN security council...

http://www.time.com/time/world/artic...444497,00.html

This is where the (political) battle really starts.

[Elfhelm]

Perhaps it has something to do with Bechtel?

50 years ago Bechtel built the pipeline to Syria. 20 years ago Donald Rumsfeld, Saddam Hussein, and a Bechtel executive met to discuss a pipeline to Jordan, but feared Israeli attacks. Later a Swiss lawyer tried to pay Israel's Labor Party a bribe for a promise not to attack the pipeline. Bechtel built Turkey's hydro-electric dam. Bush appointed Riley P. Bechtel to the President's Export Council. George Schultz, a Bechtel director, was Reagan's Secretary of State. Caspar Weinberger was recently an executive at Bechtel. Bechtel got the contract for reconstructing Iraq. Bush wants sanctions lifted to fund reconstruction. The contract is for 680 million dollars.

Is this the "fishy" thing you were looking for?

[Insidious Rex]

Appropriate for here me thinks....

http://www.stud.ntnu.no/~shane/stasj...of_the_oil.jpg

[Coney]

Originally posted by Insidious Rex
Appropriate for here me thinks....

http://www.stud.ntnu.no/~shane/stasj...of_the_oil.jpg

I had that in my sig a coupla weeks ago

[Insidious Rex]

Oh Im unoriginal as usual then....

what about this one? http://www.stud.ntnu.no/~shane/stasj...lder/bush3.jpg

EDIT: or this one http://www.stud.ntnu.no/~shane/stasj..._gulfwars2.jpg

[Elfhelm]

Are we posting Saddam spottings yet? That video from Abu Dahbi is an obvious double.

I saw him riding a bike today. He even had his silly black beret on.

[Coney]

Originally posted by Insidious Rex
Oh Im unoriginal as usual then....

what about this one? http://www.stud.ntnu.no/~shane/stasj...lder/bush3.jpg

Nowt wrong with a bit of unoriginality...........that one is great

(seen the other one before tho')

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Coney
I'm amazed that this is surprising you all...........several countries have deep financial commitments post-sanctions.....and we all knew that the oil would be the under the legal ownership of the UN security council...

http://www.time.com/time/world/artic...444497,00.html

This is where the (political) battle really starts.

I, for one, didn't say it was surprising. I however said it is stupid for the UN to vote to keep sanctions in place - since the government they were instituted against no longer exists. There is a big difference. The sandtions should be lifted immediately if the UN TRULY cares about the Iraqi people. The people of Iraq had nothing to do with the development of WMD or the invasion of Kuwait which brought about the sanctions.

But of course France and Russia are going to try playing politics with people's like they did before the war.

"A central role" is not the same as the central role, of course, and the Europeans are clearly seeking a compromise. They were unable to stop the war, and its outcome has further marginalized their influence on the ground in Iraq. Yet, they remain unwilling to simply hand legal control of Iraq over to the U.S. or a U.S.-made Iraqi authority — at least not without some compromises. And the sanctions regime, to which France and Russia have for years demanded an end, is now ironically their only leverage through which to seek a role for the UN — and by extension, a modicum of influence for themselves — in Iraq's immediate future.

Like I said - it sort of makes you wonder who is REALLY in it for the money. My vote is with France, Germany and Russia - especially since they even had illegal deals with Saddam before the downfall of Iraq.

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Insidious Rex
Oh Im unoriginal as usual then....

what about this one? http://www.stud.ntnu.no/~shane/stasj...lder/bush3.jpg

EDIT: or this one http://www.stud.ntnu.no/~shane/stasj..._gulfwars2.jpg

Too bad that if we wanted Iraq's oil there were a lot cheaper ways of going about it. For one we could have lifted sanctions and said to hell with the WMD. Also - it still remains that Europe and Japan rely more on the Middle East for oil than America does.

The argument for Gulf War I was also supposedly so we could take over Kuwaits oil - in addition to liberating them. It's amazing though - we didn't take over Kuwait's oil nor did we invade Iraq to take over their oil back in 1991. I guess it's just that the anti-war crowd needed something simplistic to rally behind - otherwise they might have actually had to face the brutality of the Iraqi regime. It seems as if most "peace activists" really don't care about the atrocities of the world - as long as they're kept behind closed doors.

[Coney]

Originally posted by jerseydevil
Like I said - it sort of makes you wonder who is REALLY in it for the money. My vote is with France, Germany and Russia - especially since they even had illegal deals with Saddam before the downfall of Iraq.

Strange......I didn't here a single protest about these "illegal deals" when they were made

Surely it would be a simple matter of courtesy (not to mention a great beneficiary) to Iraq to honour those deals? Would save a lot of hassle in the long run

The UN won't lift sanctions until the proof of WMD are in place (or lack of) so I guess it is up to Blix and his boys to finally do the job they had started......

The sandtions should be lifted immediately if the UN TRULY cares about the Iraqi people.

I agree. Let the Iraqi' people find the best deals for their oil that they can

[Coney]

Originally posted by jerseydevil
Too bad that if we wanted Iraq's oil there were a lot cheaper ways of going about it. For one we could have lifted sanctions and said to hell with the WMD.

America could not have lifted any sanctions...........they were placed there by the UN

Also - it still remains that Europe and Japan rely more on the Middle East for oil than America does.

And it is to their credit that they do not call for the lifting of sanctions until the WMD accusations have either been proven or proved false.

We'll be hearing of communist practices of the state handing out rebuilding contracts without tendering them on the open market next .......... oh wait a minute!......

[Dúnedain]

Originally posted by Elfhelm
Perhaps it has something to do with Bechtel?

50 years ago Bechtel built the pipeline to Syria. 20 years ago Donald Rumsfeld, Saddam Hussein, and a Bechtel executive met to discuss a pipeline to Jordan, but feared Israeli attacks. Later a Swiss lawyer tried to pay Israel's Labor Party a bribe for a promise not to attack the pipeline. Bechtel built Turkey's hydro-electric dam. Bush appointed Riley P. Bechtel to the President's Export Council. George Schultz, a Bechtel director, was Reagan's Secretary of State. Caspar Weinberger was recently an executive at Bechtel. Bechtel got the contract for reconstructing Iraq. Bush wants sanctions lifted to fund reconstruction. The contract is for 680 million dollars.

Is this the "fishy" thing you were looking for?

Why shouldn't an American or a coalition country get the contracts. WE are the one's who have spent all the money and blood to free these people!

[Dúnedain]

Originally posted by Coney
so I guess it is up to Blix and his boys to finally do the job they had started......

Doubtful, today the US sent in 1000 bio & chem experts, as opposed to the meager 50=100 UN inpectors or however few they have...

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Coney
America could not have lifted any sanctions...........they were placed there by the UN

No - but the US has veto power. France and Russia both wanted sanctions lifted. The US was the only one keeping them there. So NOW that the US says "okay - Hussein's regime is no more. " France and Russia say "wait - we shouldn't rush into lifting sanctions now".

And it is to their credit that they do not call for the lifting of sanctions until the WMD accusations have either been proven or proved false.

No - they just repeatedly called for the lifting of them while Hussein was in power and was in the process of hiding WMD from the inspectors.

We'll be hearing of communist practices of the state handing out rebuilding contracts without tendering them on the open market next .......... oh wait a minute!......

Most of the companies that were given the contracts - were the same companies who took care of the oil wells in Kuwait. How many months do you feel is okay to waste to try getting Iraq back on it's feet while it goes to committee?

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Coney
Strange......I didn't here a single protest about these "illegal deals" when they were made

Yes there were - but I guess you weren't getting US papers or news. It has been brought up by America for a long time.

Surely it would be a simple matter of courtesy (not to mention a great beneficiary) to Iraq to honour those deals? Would save a lot of hassle in the long run

How would this be a benefit to Iraq? Having to pay about 300 billion dollars in deals when the Iraqi people don't have the money? What would be better for the Iraqi people is if France, Germany and Russia agreed to wipe that debt that Iraq owes as part of the rebuilding effort.

The UN won't lift sanctions until the proof of WMD are in place (or lack of) so I guess it is up to Blix and his boys to finally do the job they had started......

Why not? The sanctions were put into place against Hussein's regime. Iraq is in no position right now to develop WMD and having to wait for proof of WMD one way or the other will serve no purpose for rebuilding Iraq. Who are sanctions going to punish now? Hussein and his regime? The only people the sanctions will punish are the Iraqi people and delay Iraq from getting back on it's feet.

[GrayMouser]

Originally posted by Dúnedain
Why shouldn't an American or a coalition country get the contracts. WE are the one's who have spent all the money and blood to free these people!

Shouldn't that be up to the Iraqis?

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by GrayMouser
Shouldn't that be up to the Iraqis?

You may not have noticed - but there is NO government right now.

Do you think that we should just wait a year before rebuilding the schools and everything else so then the Iraqis can get the people they want to rebuild their country?

[GrayMouser]

No, immediate action is necessary, but it does raise questions.

You're right that the reasoning of the Russians, French and Germans against lifting sanctions is absolutely ridiculous, but there is a valid legal problem, which is why the American government is now proposing to lift the sanctions in stages.

Lord knows, I'm not an international lawyer, but AFAIK the problem is this:

if the money for rebuilding is coming as aid from America, like the initial two billion the Bush Administration asked Congress for, then certainly if the American taxpayers choose to take money from their pockets and put it into the pockets of Bechtel or Halliburton, that's their decision (barring any problems with the WTO).

But, if the money is coming from Iraqi oil sales, there could be a problem down the road. What if the new government of Iraq refuses to honour those contracts, on the grounds that they were made by an American authority with an American company ( or any other company, for that matter) and are therefore not binding?

Without the consent of the Security Council, which imposed the sanctions in the first place, the legal position is much trickier.

[Elf Girl]

Originally posted by jerseydevil
You may not have noticed - but there is NO government right now.

Didn't George Bush say in his campaign that he doesn't "do" nation-building?

Either he lied or he does nation-destroying, but doesn't build them up again.