Men of the Silmarillion

[Blackheart]

It sort of makes things difficult with marriage vows if it's the whole 'til death do us part' syndrome...

One supposes that being rebodied doesn't count as a "new" life...

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally Posted by Blackheart

It sort of makes things difficult with marriage vows if it's the whole 'til death do us part' syndrome...

One supposes that being rebodied doesn't count as a "new" life...

Well, marriage between the Elves was different from the customs of Men. But as far as we know, they were not married, but in love, and Tolkien gives every indication that they were devoted to one another.

As far as being re-embodied, it was and wasn't a new life. It was a combo of both. They still had the memories of their life before, which I think is why Aegnor chose not to be re-embodied. They had the memories of both lives.

[Blackheart]

Hrmmm.. no ceremony? That's interesting. One supposes it could mean that they only fell in love with those they were "ordained" to fall in love with...

Since they had their memories, I would venture that it did not count as a 'new' life. Memory is what makes an individual an individual, discounting the uniquness of a 'soul'. Which in this case doesn't matter anyway, since it was supposedly the basis of the transfer.

One would presume that the process of being 'rebodied' would be much the same as when a maiar forms a body... Though I doubt it can occur for elves except under special circumstances. Perhaps it's one of Mandos' or a related maiar's job to assist with the formation of a new body...

I suppose they had to go through all sorts of special trouble for Beren...

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally Posted by Blackheart

Hrmmm.. no ceremony? That's interesting. One supposes it could mean that they only fell in love with those they were "ordained" to fall in love with...

They were not ordained to fall in love, but they fell in love and usually chose their spouse very early in youth, however, that didn't mean it always worked out or that who they chose would always return their love. In Laws and Customs of the Eldar, Morgoth's Ring, Vol. 10 The HoMe series: a ceremony was not necessary, but usually done for the sake of the parents and relatives of the two families involved. It was the act of bodily union that sealed a marrige with the Elves.

Since they had their memories, I would venture that it did not count as a 'new' life. Memory is what makes an individual an individual, discounting the uniquness of a 'soul'. Which in this case doesn't matter anyway, since it was supposedly the basis of the transfer.

True. However, the Elves delight was in memory. Although their previous life was ended, they were given the chance for a new life, but only in the confines of
valinor. They were inriched by having the memories of both lives.

One would presume that the process of being 'rebodied' would be much the same as when a maiar forms a body... Though I doubt it can occur for elves except under special circumstances. Perhaps it's one of Mandos' or a related maiar's job to assist with the formation of a new body...

I suppose they had to go through all sorts of special trouble for Beren...

Beren was a special exception made by Mandos for Luthien. This is a task soley left to Mandos. He was the doomsman, the keeper of souls. Only Mandos could decide how long an Elf was held in the halls. Almost all Elves returned to life, but if they chose not to, they did not have to, like Miriel and Aegnor. Then you have Elves like Feanor, that were denied by Mandos to ever return. I think he's the only one though that that happened to.

[Blackheart]

Originally Posted by Sister Golden Hair

a ceremony was not necessary, but usually done for the sake of the parents and relatives of the two families involved. It was the act of bodily union that sealed a marrige with the Elves.

Err... somehow I doubt that Elves in Tolkien's universe went around having "bodily unions" with individuals they weren't in love with. Espcially not if it was akin to getting married.
But that's not exactly what I meant by ordained. Ordained as in a preist or ceremony... not pre-ordained as such...

I merely thought it was interesting that the elves self "ordained" their marriage by nookie, whilst humans seem to need a social sanctioned service by an ordained authority...

[/QUOTE]Beren was a special exception made by Mandos for Luthien. This is a task soley left to Mandos. He was the doomsman, the keeper of souls. Only Mandos could decide how long an Elf was held in the halls....[/QUOTE]

Actually wasn't Manwe consulted in Beren's case, as well as Manwe pushing the call even 'higher up'? Not for being released, but for being rebodied.

One wonders if Mandos had any authority over Beren at all, being that he was a man, and not bound to Arda anyway.

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally Posted by Blackheart

Err... somehow I doubt that Elves in Tolkien's universe went around having "bodily unions" with individuals they weren't in love with. Espcially not if it was akin to getting married.
But that's not exactly what I meant by ordained. Ordained as in a preist or ceremony... not pre-ordained as such...

Here is how their ceremony took place.

From Morgoth's Ring- Volume 10- Laws and Customs of the Eldar- The Histories of Middle-earth Series.

In due time the betrothal was announced at a meeting of the two houses concerned, and the betrothed gave silver rings one to another. According to the laws of the Eldar this betrothal was bound then to stand for one year at least, and it often stood for longer. During this time it could be revoked by a public return of the rings, the rings then being molten and not again used for a betrothal.

After the betrothal, it was the part of the betrothed to appoint the time of their wedding, when at least one year had past. Then at a feast, again shared by the two houses, the marriage was celebrated. At the end of the feast the betrothed stood forth, and the mother of the bride and the father of the bridegroom joined the hands of the pair and blessed them. For this blessing there was a solemn form but no mortal has heard it; though the Eldar say that Varda was named in witness by the mother and Manwe by the father, and moreover that the name of Eru was spoken (as was seldom done at any other time). The betrothed then received back one from the other their silver rings (and treasured them); but they gave in exchange slender rings of gold, which were worn upon the index of the right hand.

Among the Noldor also it was a custom that the bride's mother should give to the bridegroom a jewel upon a chain or collar; and the bridegroom's father should give a like gift to the bride. These gifts were sometimes given before the feast. (Thus the gift of Galadriel to Aragorn, since she was in place of Arwen's mother, was in part a bridel gift and earnest of the wedding that was later accomplished).

But these ceremonies were not rites necessary to marriage, they were only a gracious mode by which the love of the parents was manifested, and the union was recognized which would join not only the betrothed but the two houses together. It was the act of bodily union that achieved marriage, and after which the indissoluble bond was complete.

[Blackheart]

Originally Posted by Sister Golden Hair

But these ceremonies were not rites necessary to marriage, they were only a gracious mode by which the love of the parents was manifested, and the union was recognized which would join not only the betrothed but the two houses together. It was the act of bodily union that achieved marriage, and after which the indissoluble bond was complete.

Which is the point I find interesting... Apparently Elves and Swans have something in common... They mate for life.
I can see why Tolkien would consider a marriage ceremony superfluous if it were something that inherent to their makeup.

It also explains the furor over Finwe... And why Feanor's wife didn't dump him for someone more sensible...

[Embladyne]

Originally Posted by Blackheart

Which is the point I find interesting... Apparently Elves and Swans have something in common... They mate for life.
I can see why Tolkien would consider a marriage ceremony superfluous if it were something that inherent to their makeup.

It also explains the furor over Finwe... And why Feanor's wife didn't dump him for someone more sensible...

And we can be glad she didn't. Imagine the world without Maedhros, or Maglor..... And there would be no Celebrimbor...

[Blackheart]

Originally Posted by Embladyne

And we can be glad she didn't. Imagine the world without Maedhros, or Maglor..... And there would be no Celebrimbor...

Actually I think she became dissatisfied AFTER all the fluffy bunny elf sex...

Pumping out 7 puppies might be enough to make any woman grumpy though...

[Rían]

Have you been able to get your hands on any of the HoME books, Blackheart? The ones on LOTR are not very good, IMO (who wants to hear about "Trotter the Hobbit"?) but the Sil ones are great! Be sure to check out the Shibboleth thread - very interesting backstory on Fëanor! I think the account of marriage customs in HoME 10 (MR) is very interesting. I like how the ceremony is nice - but not needed. The rest of the paragraph that SGH quoted is this :

In happy days and times of peace it was held ungracious and contemptuous of kin to forgo the ceremonies, but it was at all times lawful for any of the Eldar, both being unwed, to marry thus of free consent one to another without ceremony or witness (save blessings exchanged and the naming of the Name); and the union so joined was alike indissoluble. In days of old, in times of trouble, in flight and exile and wandering, such marriages were often made.

There's interesting info in Laws and Customs about children, too. Your comment in the abstinence thread about having to take a pill to HAVE a kid (great idea!) reminded me of a bit in MR, too - how the elves conceived children by will, not chance. I can't find it right now - does anyone else remember that?

EDIT - found it - "For with regard to generation the power and the will are not among the Eldar distinguishable." I interpreted it to mean that they chose when to conceive. Is that how you guys read it?

SECOND EDIT - whoops, getting waaay OT -
ok, Tuor and Fingon ROCK! LOVE those guys! *fans herself*

[Blackheart]

I probably have them lying around somewhere still. But I haven't cracked them in ages, and I doubt I will ever become as conversant with them as I am with the published works, or even untold tales.

I wouldn't doubt at all that Tolkien would have viewed the elvish conception as a specific act of will. They get all they good stuff.

A lot of the concept of elvish "grace" is based on the idea of elevated spirituality, from what I can garner.

That's why they can marry at the drop of a hat apparantly, concieve at will, choose when to let go of thier body (and get a new one...) and live happily ever after forever (given the right conditions i.e. not middle earth in the age of men)

And people still wonder why the Numenoreans got jealous?

[Elemmírë]

Originally Posted by Blackheart

I probably have them lying around somewhere still. But I haven't cracked them in ages, and I doubt I will ever become as conversant with them as I am with the published works, or even untold tales.

I wouldn't doubt at all that Tolkien would have viewed the elvish conception as a specific act of will. They get all they good stuff.

A lot of the concept of elvish "grace" is based on the idea of elevated spirituality, from what I can garner.

That's why they can marry at the drop of a hat apparantly, concieve at will, choose when to let go of thier body (and get a new one...) and live happily ever after forever (given the right conditions i.e. not middle earth in the age of men)

And people still wonder why the Numenoreans got jealous?

Elves? Live happily ever after? Where in the Silmarillion is that? I must have missed it!

And technically they can't choose when to get a new body...

Originally Posted by RÃ*an

EDIT - found it - "For with regard to generation the power and the will are not among the Eldar distinguishable." I interpreted it to mean that they chose when to conceive. Is that how you guys read it?

SECOND EDIT - whoops, getting waaay OT -
ok, Tuor and Fingon ROCK! LOVE those guys! *fans herself*

Yeah, that's how I would read it too, RÃ*... And after reading some of the UT... yes, Tuor's pretty cool...

Though... not nearly as cool as Finrod...

[Embladyne]

Originally Posted by ElemmÃ*rë

And after reading some of the UT... yes, Tuor's pretty cool...

You're getting there, my friend.

Though... not nearly as cool as Finrod...

I guess you and I are even now...

[Rían]

Originally Posted by ElemmÃ*rë

And after reading some of the UT... yes, Tuor's pretty cool...

"cool"?

He's HOT!

Have you read the Fall of Gondolin? If not - don't! I might have another rival for Tuor ...

*swats away Earniel*

[Elemmírë]

Originally Posted by RÃ*an

"cool"?

He's HOT!

Have you read the Fall of Gondolin? If not - don't! I might have another rival for Tuor ...

*swats away Earniel*

Nyeh, hyeh, hyeh. You don't have to worry about having another rival for Tuor.

You've got Eärniel and Embladyne to deal with.

Me... no. I'm not about to branch outside of House Finwë... there are too many great guys that I already like there, Finrod of course being foremost.

Anyway, SGH would kill me.

[Blackheart]

Originally Posted by ElemmÃ*rë

Elves? Live happily ever after? Where in the Silmarillion is that? I must have missed it!

And technically they can't choose when to get a new body...

Yes, you must have missed that whole section about the "blessed" land.....

And how often is a new body refused? At any rate, how often were the Numenoreans offered one?

[Embladyne]

Originally Posted by ElemmÃ*rë

Nyeh, hyeh, hyeh. You don't have to worry about having another rival for Tuor.

You've got Eärniel and Embladyne to deal with.

I'm okay for now, and can deal with Eärendil instead, but if Rian ever decides she doesn't want Tuor...
(Rian, I'm still slightly uncomforatble with your claiming of him....I mean, isn't he your son? )

[Rían]

no, no, that's another RÃ*an!

[Lenya]

Originally Posted by Embladyne

I'm okay for now, and can deal with Eärendil instead, but if Rian ever decides she doesn't want Tuor...
(Rian, I'm still slightly uncomforatble with your claiming of him....I mean, isn't he your son? )

nice one

[Elemmírë]

It lives again!

I can't imagine there are that many RÃ*ans who are attached to Tuor in some way or another...