Discussion Thread Number 3 Of Wraiths-Kings-Friends-Rings Campaign

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by RÃ*an

No, he didn't - but he did do some things that he really regrets now ... and he did take up some of her time, so he had to pay her.

Hmm, that sounds even worse... Elves...

[Rían]

Echoes of our last president! ("I did NOT have sex with that woman!")

(what Tyaron did with that lady would be considered pretty tame in the eyes of many humans, but to him (and IMO to the Eldar in general), it was huge - he's starting to wonder a lot of things, including wondering if association with rpg-RÃ*an is "tainting" him and giving him some "undesireable" characteristics of humans)

[Rían]

Hmmm, more fun at the jewelry shop ...

(loved your ref. to hair accessories!)

[Gordis]

REVISED MAP OF THARBAD

http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a3...s/Tharbad9.jpg

Please,BB, in INFO#3 change Tharbad8.jpg to Tharbad9.jpg

And, please, add the Classes Schedule:

http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a3...-Dis/USAT5.jpg

Thanx,
Evil Cartographer

[Rían]

If you see the Evil Cartographer, Gordis, thank her for all her work!


I added some edits to make my post #538 (the "Tyaron gone wrong" post ) have more clear references to his fear of rpg-Rian's effect on him, and his fear of loss of control.

[Lotesse]

Originally Posted by RÃ*an

No, he didn't - but he did do some things that he really regrets now ... and he did take up some of her time, so he had to pay her.

Lol!!! He had to PAY her? I had no idea elves were into the prostitution racket! That was a cool quote, Rian!!

[Lotesse]

Thanx so much 4 all the incredible mappage, Gordis. I wish I could print it out right now (can't, am stealing time at my man's office and if I try & print something he'll hit the roof. )

[Lotesse]

Gordis, Rian, Udu and Crazy Squirrel - great posts! I have a weird question - does anyone know if there's ever been an elf (canon-wise) who's actually killed themself, like out of grief or despair or something? I still have not read the entire Silmarillion, but it occured to me to ask, when reading about Tyaron all sad and confused, sticking himself like that. Poor guy. Good thing he's got a smart and caring horse!


AND - Buon Compleanno, Lord Khamul! Viv wants to steal you a nice jeweled scimitar for your birthday! Viv definitely loves her crazy-cruel "Uncle" Khamul. She's always got his back.

[Rían]

Originally Posted by Lotesse

Lol!!! He had to PAY her? I had no idea elves were into the prostitution racket! That was a cool quote, Rian!!

Well, he knew what her "business" was, and that she gets paid for her time, and he took up some of her time, so being a fair type of guy he felt he had to pay her ... and he paid her double because he felt sorry for her, and despised himself for "using" her. Altho as I said, in her opinion it was "easy money" because he didn't ask for much at all (basically just some kissing while he was imagining it was you-know-who), but in his eyes, it was a pretty huge betrayal, and he also despised himself for "using" this woman. But he felt betrayed, too, the more he thought about the events of the last 24 hours - the real rpg-Rian dared to be unlike the imaginary one he had been faithful to all these years, and he told himself he didn't care what he was doing ...

Anyway, I thought they were some interesting things to explore (the half-human idea and what that might mean to those involved, and the betrayal idea, and the control/safety thing, and fear issues, and how people are different from how we want them to be, and how sometimes in anger we do things that we know we'll regret but we're so angry we don't care, and how we feel when we "use" other people for our own selfish purposes, and the lies we tell ourselves, etc. )

[Rían]

Originally Posted by Lotesse

Gordis, Rian, Udu and Crazy Squirrel - great posts! I have a weird question - does anyone know if there's ever been an elf (canon-wise) who's actually killed themself, like out of grief or despair or something? I still have not read the entire Silmarillion, but it occured to me to ask, when reading about Tyaron all sad and confused, sticking himself like that. Poor guy. Good thing he's got a smart and caring horse!

I wondered if anyone would catch the cutting reference ... he's a control type of guy feeling out of control. I've never done that, but I have internet friends who have, and I can understand it.

There's a couple of fascinating references in HoME that I'll dig up for you later on tonight, Lotesse - got to go fix dinner now.

[Lotesse]

Well, you guys, I did my edit-to-add to the placeholder for Viv's internal journey, during the morning race. It's #535, if y'all want to read it.

[Rían]

*scoots off to read the post*

[Rían]

Whew - nice post! - got some interesting emotions flying around!! *fans self*

OK, re your question - (you GOTTA read the Sil, Lotesse! Just skip past the first parts if you can't get into the Valar stuff - you can always come back to it - maybe start at "of the coming of the elves", or "Of Fëanor" - believe me, you'll end up with a different picture of elves!)

The most that is said on this issue is when MÃ*riel is discussed (the mother of Fëanor). There's some large sections in Morgoth's Ring (HoME 10). MÃ*riel was the first Elf to voluntarily "die", and it caused quite a few problems, because that's not their natural fate. What I like about JRRT's treatment of the subject is that he doesn't pass judgement on her either way; he has some of the Valar on both sides as they debate the issue.

Another very interesting thing is from that essay on Elven marriage I've been quoting from - a little footnote that reads:

from Quendi and Eldar
The Eldar wedded one for all. Many, as the histories reveal, could become estranged from good, for nothing can wholy escape from the evil shadow that lies upon Arda. Some fell into pride, and self-will, and could be guilty of deeds of malice, enmity, greed and jealousy. But among all these evils there is no record of any among the Elves that took another's spouse by force; for this was wholly against their nature, and one so forced would have rejected bodily life and passed to Mandos. Guile or trickery in this matter was scarcely possible (even if it could be thought that any Elf would purpose to use it); for the Eldar can read at once in the eyes and voice of another whether they be wed or unwed.

I've quoted the last sentence before, but I find the first part fascinating, that an Elf would voluntarily die over this. And that's why what Tyaron just did was so huge, because those types of things are against their very nature (altho he didn't do much, "just" some kissing - but it definitely crossed a boundary he thought he would NEVER cross with a stranger). He was so deeply affected by the difference between the real rpg-Rian and his imaginary rpg-Rian, which gradually dawned on him stronger and stronger after he left Tharbad, that he did something deeply against his own nature.

and from the same essay,

The Eldar wedded once only in life, and for love or at the least by free will upon either part. Even when in after days, as the histories reveal, many of the Eldar in Middle-earth became corrupted, and their hearts darkened by the shadow that lies upon Arda, seldom is any tale told of deeds of lust among them.

And many, many times the theme of their spirits being masters over their bodies is repeated. From the same essay,

They are not easily deceived by their own kind; and their spirits being masters of their bodies, they are seldom swayed by the desires of the body only, but are by nature continent and steadfast.

Anyway, Tyaron might look upon Khamul with very interesting mixed and somewhat more humble feelings the next time he sees him, because in his mind, he has now abused a woman, too, although in a much lesser capacity ... (it WAS kind of her choice to be in that profession, and he DID pay her well, and he didn't really ask for much, compared to what he imagined her usual customers asked for ... well, we're all good at justifying ourselves ...)

Anyway, re MÃ*riel - there's just loads about her, but basically in bearing Fëanor, most of her energy passed into him, and she grew weary of life and chose to die, when she could (most probably) have been healed if she tried. It's a fascinating read - first you feel sorry for her, then you want to shake her and say "suck it up, woman! your family needs you!", then back you go to feeling sorry for her, then you want to kick her ... JRRT really, really writes it in a fascinating way, how the Valar debate over how to deal with her, and what it means for her husband (who wants a wife and more kids), and the wife and kids of the second marriage, and the child of the first marriage (Fëanor - the guy with some anger issues ), etc. etc.

And finally, in WoTJ (War of the Jewels, HoME 11, "Quendi and Eldar") and PoME (Peoples of Middle Earth, HoME 12, "The Shibboleth of Fëanor") are some more sections on MÃ*riel, and on elves dying voluntarily. Here's the one from WoTJ:

Of death, as suffered by Men, the Elves knew nothing until they came into close association with the Atani, but there were cases in which an Elf, overcome by a great sorrow or weariness, had resigned life in the body. The chief of these, the departure of MÃ*riel wife of King Finwë, was a matter of deep concern to all the Ñoldor, and it was told of her that her last act, as she gave up her life in the body and went to the keeping of Mandos, was a deep sigh of weariness.

[Serenoli]

I have just posted, Maggie, and made Mahtaliel engage in a little knife-work... if you have any objections don't hesitate to pm me... but when I saw you had sent her off to the public school, I panicked somewhat... see, I had a little scene planned in front of the Arts building, but was waiting for your class to end... but then I found you had gone off to the lunch at the public school... had to intercept you!

Nice posts everyone...

[Rían]

EDIT NOTICE - Eärniel sent me her character's response for my post #524 and I've edited it in Take a look - it includes a lively song (oh, those elves!!!)

Eärniel, I had rpg-Rian respond with something you told me once about your character in a PM Hope it's OK! Let me know if I need to change anything.

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

Thanks for the birthday wishes guys. Had a great day.
I'll try and post tonight, but I don't think I'll be able to get on tomorrow.
EDIT: Udu, oh how Khamûl loves quite chats! Are you still planning on bringing some of you friends from the East to Tharbad as maids and servants.

[Butterbeer]

not a problem ...hope you enjoyed yourself.

Well i see there's another mysterious ring floating around Arnor or Eriador or the North .... ...

[Rían]

(I never thought of that! Funny!)

[Butterbeer]

A note written in blood to the masked mysterious and evil catographer:

ok, so the new updated map and the controversial teaching schedule is up in the street

....so ....

controversy ...

... lets hope it does not lead to a Tarantino style shoot out ....

HEH! ...why do i have to be Mr Pink?

Nice writing all. esp Udu and CS ....

CS ... udu-joi ( ) je noticed le post de "cop" again!

Now you may think he's a cop, fine, *mumbles* ... though he's the Watch! ...but the use of "Cop" in the main rpg is hardly tolkienesque is it?

*sighs, mumbles AND accidentelly sits on the "exapseration" button*

Cop just, at least to me, seems really out of place and conjures completely different meanings ...

[Lady Marion Magdalena]

*snerk* The knife work is fine Serenoli. I continued the scene, I leave it to you to extricate your character from the clutches of my paranoid elf-lady without causing too much of a hullabaloo. I'm afraid he'll have to use persuasion, an attempt to over-power her would be problematic.