The Critics' treatment of Tolkien & Jackson

[BeardofPants]

Yes, yes, we agree on one point BB: Gandalf probably utilised the advantage of the sun completely blinding them. HOWEVER, there is no way in heck that horses can tackle an incline that steep without breaking their fetlocks or something.

[mithrand1r]

BB,

What?!?!?! I can't believe anyone could find fault with THAT scene!!! That was one of the best pieces of film-making I've ever watched in my life!

I agree that the music was very good and the charge did provide a good visual image.

I had problem with the steepness of the slope and the relative ineffectiveness of the orc pikes.

I thought the slope to be too steep. Maybe not impossible for "master horse riders", but it did stretch my own sense of believability.

A friend of mine also mentioned the bit about the bright sunlight. While this may have a certain element of validity, I think it would have been better if the orcs did not have any pike at all. This would have avoided any questions on my part.

Overall, PJ&Co. did many things well, but there are still several areas where they could have been better. As a movie, very good. As an adaptation of LOTR, it could have (and should have) been much better.

Sincerely,

[Black Breathalizer]

The Charge of Gandalf and Eomer's troops was P E R F E C T.

If some of you wanna analyze it to death, go right ahead. But classic film moments need no justification or defense. On all levels you just "know" it's dead-on perfect. This one was as good as it gets: beautiful, poetic, moving, magical, and visually stunning.

[BeardofPants]

Or would this be because you have no justification or defence?

[Nurvingiel]

Welcome to the Moot isthatbad! even though you might not want to spam threads on your sixth post... or ever.

Anyway, in terms of Gandalf and Eomer's charge.

You can charge down a hill that steep (as long as you're a Rohirrim quality rider on a Rohirrim quality horse), so that part is fine, and extremely cool looking. It can even be described as a classic film moment, because it was awesome to watch.

But I have to ixne of the erfectpe again, becuase Erkenbrand wasn't there, nor was he mentioned. My memory of who was where at the (Book) battle of Helm's Deep is slightly fuzzy, but I'm pretty darn sure someone else was supposed to be there.

However, this scene is awesome, and very well done, and I'm sure there's a battle technical explanation as to how most of the company avoided impalement on the orcs spears. Maybe orcs just really suck at fighting. So much for Saruman's special genetic program.

Anyway, if you really want to pick at something in Helm's Deep, why not Legolas skateboarding down the stairs on a shield while shooting? Whether or not he can pull this off is irrelevant, the whole idea lacks elven dignity.


Edit: I would add, that it may appear that we are off topic, but we are all critics of the movies and the books because we love them and have something to say about them. Even though, we might want to move this part of the debate to the "What do you think about The Two Towers **Spoilers** thread instead. What do you guys think?

[Wayfarer]

would this be because you have no justification or defence?

Yes. Not that he'll ever admit it.

[Black Breathalizer]

Having just returned from seeing the movie for the eleventh time......I will admit that I am absolutely right!!!

I watched the Gandalf & Eomer charge carefully and this is what I saw:

The moment the sun rose over the horizon, the orcs shield their eyes and many lower their spears as brilliant sunlight shines down on them only an instant before Gandalf and Company reach them.

My defenses held.

[durin's bane]

The movies are O.K., but the books are always better.

[cassiopeia]

But many of the Urak-hai are still pointing thier spears at the riders. Even if some of the Urak-hai have lowered their spears, I think there is a great chance, since they are riding through hundreds of them, that most (if not all) of the horses will be stabbed eventually, and probably the riders as well. Also, wouldn't the Urak-hai be only temporarily blinded and quickly try to stab the riders as they pass through? I still think it doesn't make sense.

[Nurvingiel]

Originally posted by Black Breathalizer
Having just returned from seeing the movie for the eleventh time......I will admit that I am absolutely right!!!

I watched the Gandalf & Eomer charge carefully and this is what I saw:

The moment the sun rose over the horizon, the orcs shield their eyes and many lower their spears as brilliant sunlight shines down on them only an instant before Gandalf and Company reach them.

My defenses held.

Wow. You've seen the movie more than I've even read the book! And you thought I was a fan-atic!

I can only conclude that:
1) Orcs are poorly trained, and
2) Some of the riders were killed, despite the fact that orcs are dumb, and we just didn't see that as the charge swept through.

You can't admit you're right I know you're just joking.

I am going to have to reluctantly agree with you on this one. Even though I never disagreed with you on this scene, sometimes the way you phrase things makes it hard to agree with you.

[Wayfarer]

I personally like the theory that saruman's Uruk-Hai were a genetic crossing of Orcs, Men, Pod Alien, and The French.

Part of the stupid thing in that scene was giving the orcs polearms and then pretending that while the realized what kind of weapon you use against horsemen, the weren't smart enough to use them.

In reality, the reason the riders would have been so devastating is that the traditional footsoldiers weapons are nearly useless against a mounted rider with a spear. Giving the orcs teh equipment to negate that advantage is ridiculous.

[Black Breathalizer]

Regarding the charge:

1) No doubt many of the horsemen were killed. The film just didn't stop to focus on it.

2) Orcs aren't the best soldiers on Middle-Earth.

3) The blinding sunlight did have an impact on the battle.

But I feel like I'm using the wrong side of my brain in defending this brilliant scene from the movie. While it can be defended logically, the greatness of this scene is in the blending of music, cinematography, and CGI to create film poetry and magic. This is one of those places where where you just have to "stop and smell the roses."

[Rána Eressëa]

There were three things wrong with the White Rider & Eorlingas scene:

1.) That was way too steep an incline for those horses to not go tumbling down head first like rollie-pollies.
2.) CGI Gandalf bouncing in a obviously skippy manner was too fake for my liking.
3.) Not one horse got pierced by the one thousand spears that were still pointed directly at them even though the sun was out.

The movie was absolutely awesome, but let's face it -- it's still got flaws.

[straight_face]

If you've seen the movies and read the books, the critics' opinions shouldn't effect you when you already have a realization of the literature in your own opinion. It sounds like the critics had not read the books; otherwise they might have had greater respect. Truly, seeing the movies increased my respect, also, for the books including the Lord of the Rings, the Hobbit, the Silmarillion, and the Histories of Middle-earth. Critics these days are horrible, anyway. I don't think their opinion matters.

[Black Breathalizer]

Originally posted by straight_face
Critics these days are horrible, anyway. I don't think their opinion matters.

One of the difficulties with most critics (in the media and here on the board) is that they don't view the films or the books with an open mind.

[mithrand1r]

Black Breathalizer,

I do not know how badly LOTR the book was panned by critics back in the 50s? From what I gather here & other places is that there were few critics with positive words then.

I do know that many critics today like the film and have many positive words of praise for PJ&Co's treatment of JRRT's novel.

Whether a piece of work receives acclaim or disdain does little to affect how I feel about the piece of work (it may affect how soon I will see/read said work, but that's it).

As I have stated in other threads on this board, in general I like the film and think it is very good (especially when the film is not compared to the books). When compared to the books, there are several decisions that I question about the PJ&Co.'s movie adaptation of LOTR. Some can be explained as streamlining of plot for reasonable movie time. Some leave me wondering (ie Awren @ ford, fickleness & implusiveness Ent thought/decision process, Council of Babel (.. I mean Elrond ) etc.)

One change that I thought was nice, was that Gandalf did not touch the ring. (I know not a big point, but it was a nice touch, though I did not like the idea of leaving the ring on the floor )

I may disagree with you about how great a particular scene (or movie) is, but that is the great thing about this board. (people being able to disagree in a friendly manner [usually ]

I still think it is problamatic giving pikes to Orcs for the Helms deep battle. Why bother using pikes in the film. The pikes presence does not enhance the film, nor is it vital to the telling of the tale. The pikes only serve to bring possible tactic/logic problems (ie why horses not impaled on pikes). The bright sunlight does not explain this problem completely to me.

Sincerely,
Anthony

[Nurvingiel]

Nice post mithrand1r, it's awesome when people put a lot of effort into expressing their views.

Sometimes BB, you come off as closed minded yourself, because you don't seem to like being disagreed with. As mithrand1r said, that's the fun of this board. I know you've been harshly flamed a few times, and that sucks, but don't let your acceptance of others' views be affected by that.

Anyway, we all have every right to be critics of the books and the movies.

One aspect I like about the books and movies is all the times where it's just the four hobbits. The Scouring of the Shire is my favourite part of LotR. In the FotR movie, I really enjoyed Merry, Pippin, Frodo and Sam's first scenes together. (And they mentioned Farmer Maggot.)

[Black Breathalizer]

Originally posted by Nurvingiel
Sometimes BB, you come off as closed minded yourself, because you don't seem to like being disagreed with.

I am a highly trained, professional Purist Rehabilitation Counselor so it is not surprising to me that prospective clients who are still in the denial stage of their condition often disagree with my expert LOTR analysis and commentary. Though I may not always succeed, I try hard to treat these lost souls with kindness, compassion, and understanding.

[Nurvingiel]

That was the best sidestep ever! You exhibit purist symptoms yourself doctor! Funny funny.



Edit: Hey wait a second... I (mostly) agreed with you this time.

[Cirdan]

The Orcs at the battle of the Fords of Isen specifically included pikemen (per Tolkien in Unfinished Tales). It would, however, be odd for fresh troops to be milling around behind the line, weapons in hand, coincidentally in perfect position to counter the surprise flank attack (and fail to execute). Light in the eyes is no excuse for a pikeman (just plant it and hold).

The movie Orcs were much to disciplined in movement to have lost with such an overwhelming numerical superiority, but that may be due to a limitation of the software used to generate the many of the battle scenes.