Greatest of the Edain

[Maedhros]

I don't think you have proven that because he knew fear means that he did not have might of soul to resist him. Can you factually say that Hurin knew no fear? Fear does not mean weak. I think for Beren to endure the torment of Sauron, and then to proceed and succeed with the quest of the Silmaril shows that he was great indeed.

I think that I have. From the Lays of Beleriand: The Second Version of the Children of Húrin

Then Húrin answered, Hithlum's chieftain
his shining eyes with sheen of fire
in wrath were reddened: 'O ruinous one,
by fear unfettered I have fought thee long,
nor dread thee now, nor thy demon slaves,
fiends and phantoms, thou foe of Gods! '
His dark tresses, drenched and tangled,
that fell o'er his face he flung backward,
in the eye he looked of the evil Lord
since that day of dread to dare his glance
has no mortal Man had might of soul.
There the mind of Húrin in a mist of dark
neath gaze unfathomed groped and foundered,
yet his heart yielded not nor his haughty pride.

This excludes the other mortals with the exception of Húrin. Beren could not, as stated by JRRT.

What Beren did in his life served a purpose and achived an end.

You're right. I mean, if Húrin and Huor hadn't made way for Turgon to return to Gondolin, there is a possibility that Gondolin would have been destroyed, Tuor would have not met Idril and there would be no Eärendil. But there's no purpose in that.

From him also came the line of kings and the person who managed to get back to valinor.

Tuor.

[Arien the Maia]

Originally posted by Falagar
Ok, a last, desperate defence for Húrin (although it seems like most people have voted for him...maybe I should make a poll?)!

Perhaps. But the fact that his son's daughter married a man who fetched the Valars doesn't make Beren himself greater than Húrin, who saved the lord of Gondolin, Turgon's back and defied Morgoth when he asked where Turgon had his city.
Beren wasn't captivated by Morgoth (and when he was taken by Sauron he escaped fairly quick compared to Húrin), and he crept in while Morgoth and his house were sleeping (thanks to Luthien).

But in my opinion, Beren's deeds were the greater because they did lead to the downfall of Morgoth I am not saying that Hurin wasn't a great man...he was and I think that he and Beren are equal now after reviewing this thread!

[Wayfarer]

Let's just say that while Hurin was the greater man, Beren did the greater deeds.

[BeardofPants]

Originally posted by Maedhros
Tuor.

Don't you mean Earendil?

[Wayfarer]

I don't think he does, Bop.

I believe maedhros was saying that Tuor was Earendil's father, not Beren. However, I believe that Beren was the ancestor of Earendil's wife, Elwing.

Earendil's wife was Elwing.
Elwing's Father was Dior.
Dior's Father was Beren.

[BeardofPants]

Oh, I thought he was referring to "the person who managed to get back to valinor." My mistake.

[Andúril]

Sween:
It was acctually Hour that has the dialog (well from my version of the sil) with Turgon saying they will cover his escape.

But the question is: who took down the minutes?

[Maedhros]

Let's just say that while Hurin was the greater man, Beren did the greater deeds.

Beren's deeds were not his own, there were a combination of a number of characters, including Lúthien, Huan, FF, etc.

[The Lady of Ithilien]

Well, guess I'm drawn into this by my saying that of those on Elrond's list, Beren was the mightiest fighter and lover. Again, remember: Hador is my choice for the greatest of the Edain overall.

So, with that in mind, I'll clarify what made me choose Beren over Húrin:

• His presence in Dorthonion for four years after his father's death, causing Morgoth to put a price on his head equivalent to the one set for Fingon;
• His choice to eat no flesh or slay any living thing that was not in the service of Morgoth -- after a point, any of the great -- and Húrin was indeed great -- can swing an axe and shout "Day shall come again" until the darkness falls, but to be so selective in such harsh conditions...that is a degree beyond mere ability;
• He is the only mortal to pass Melian's enchanted wall bordering Doriath, perhaps because of this (though JRRT does say it was "fate");
• He didn't flinch in front of Thingol and indeed was quite bold;
• He loved and his love was never dimmed. Remember, I said Beren was the greatest fighter and lover. Húrin's tragedy was that Morgoth darkened his love by doing such horrible things to his family, and so eventually Gondolin was betrayed. This is ultimately the difference between Húrin and Beren. Greatness is never wholly won on the battlefield.

There's probably other factors in there, but those are the main ones that come to mind right now.

[Falagar]

His choice to eat no flesh or slay any living thing that was not in the service of Morgoth -- after a point, any of the great -- and Húrin was indeed great -- can swing an axe and shout "Day shall come again" until the darkness falls, but to be so selective in such harsh conditions...that is a degree beyond mere ability;

But to slay 70 of Gothmogs troll guards?

He didn't flinch in front of Thingol and indeed was quite bold;

Húrin didn't flinch in front of Morgoth, and no offence to Thingol, but I would rather meet Thingol in any mood, rather than Morgoth in a good mood...

He loved and his love was never dimmed. Remember, I said Beren was the greatest fighter and lover. Húrin's tragedy was that Morgoth darkened his love by doing such horrible things to his family, and so eventually Gondolin was betrayed. This is ultimately the difference between Húrin and Beren. Greatness is never wholly won on the battlefield.

No, greatness is not wholly won on the battlefield, but combining Húrin's greatness on the battlefield with his valor in his defending of the king of Gondolin and the defying of Morgoth makes him IMHO the greatest of the Edain

[Sween]

Originally posted by Falagar
But to slay 70 of Gothmogs troll guards?

but they were trying to take him alive which makes it easier

[Maedhros]

Greatness is never wholly won on the battlefield.

No, but you forgot to mention that the Might of soul of Húrin was unparallel to any mortal men.

His choice to eat no flesh or slay any living thing that was not in the service of Morgoth -- after a point, any of the great -- and Húrin was indeed great -- can swing an axe and shout "Day shall come again" until the darkness falls, but to be so selective in such harsh conditions...that is a degree beyond mere ability;

I would say that being a prisioner in Angband for over 28 years with no hope of escape and under the torture of Balrogs and not giving an inch, while your family is cursed by Morgoth is a degree beyond mere ability, and it's on a whole new level than not eating or slaying any living thing in the service of Morgoth.

[Sister Golden Hair]

A little OT, but what kind of food do you think Morgoth fed Hurin for 28 years? I shudder to think.

[Falagar]

Yeah, indeed he must have been great if he survived that!

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally posted by Falagar
Yeah, indeed he must have been great if he survived that!

LOL! Not the answer I was looking for, but I'll agree with you.

[Sween]

Originally posted by Sister Golden Hair
A little OT, but what kind of food do you think Morgoth fed Hurin for 28 years? I shudder to think.

The food of the devil those little cup of crap things (you know the powder and add water apprentally classes as a meal) or more likley just slim fast (who in there right mind would eat that?)

[BeardofPants]

I've always been a big fan of Turin, personally. It is interesting how, in the earlier mythologies, he was the only man to come back at the end of the world, and avenge his family against Morgoth.

[Maedhros]

From the Lays of Beleriand: The Children of Húrin

'Nay, fear when thou feelest, when the flames lick thee
and the whistling whips thy white body
and wilting flesh weal and torture! '
Then hung they helpless Húrin dauntless
in chains by fell enchantments forged
that with fiery anguish his flesh devoured,
yet loosed not lips locked in silence
to pray for pity. Thus prisoned saw he
on the sable walls the sultry glare
of far-off fires fiercely burning
down deep corridors and dark archways
in the blind abysses of those bottomless halls;
there with mourning mingled mighty tumult
the throb and thunder of the thudding forges'
brazen clangour; belched and spouted
flaming furnaces; there faces sad
through the glooms glided as the gloating Orcs
their captives herded under cruel lashes.
Many a hopeless glance on Húrin fell,
for his tearless torment many tears were spilled.

[Captain Stern]

Beren was great, no doubt about that, but just not as great as Hurin, that's all.

SGH: A little OT, but what kind of food do you think Morgoth fed Hurin for 28 years? I shudder to think.

I would imagine he was sustained by Morgoth's version of a 'drip'...

Anduril: Nobody's playing anybody. Arnie is Húrin in my minds eye. I can't picture anyone else killing 70 trolls like that.

SGH: I always pictured Hurin to be like Chuck Norris.

Chuck Norris lol I don't think he was THAT short!

As to Arnie... well I too certainly imagined Hurin being very muscled, quite like an Arnie figure. But Hurin was said to have blond hair, and I don't think Arnold would look at all good with blond hair...

[Sister Golden Hair]

Chuck Norris isn't short, is he?