The Silmarillion:AinulindalÃ« - Page 4

***RÃan*** · 11-20-2002, 11:04 PM

What are people's opinions on the "Deeps of Time" phrase? I know over in a related thread, "Did IlÃºvatar make Melkor Evil", we've been discussing how we think IlÃºvatar is outside of time, and the people of Arda are in time.

Lefty Scaevola · 11-21-2002, 12:36 PM

In our universe time is a property of the substance of the universe space time. This time does not exist outside the limits of the universe. I would suppose it it the same in Ea, which is a fictional version of our universe. What ever is ousite has a different time, which may be of an altogether different nature, more different than just being similar to ours but asynchronous.

Artanis · 11-21-2002, 01:26 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by RÃ*an
What are people's opinions on the "Deeps of Time" phrase? I know over in a related thread, "Did IlÃºvatar make Melkor Evil", we've been discussing how we think IlÃºvatar is outside of time, and the people of Arda are in time.

I have always thought the concept of time were a part of Ea, and had no meaning outside it.

Lief Erikson · 11-21-2002, 06:23 PM

Yes. If you think time is universal, and is for IlÃºvatar as well, then you get into the question also of how anything came to be. How was IlÃºvatar created? How did the first creation begin? IlÃºvatar couldn't have created himself . . .

But if you accept another dimension, then everything becomes more reasonable. Things just are; they don't have to be made. Arda is a creation in which many of these rules have been alterred.

Wayfarer · 11-21-2002, 06:31 PM

Iluvatar can't possibly be contained by time, if he created it. And if he didn't create it, and he is contained by it, where did it come from?

Cirdan · 11-22-2002, 01:38 AM

The "Deeps of Time" reads to me as though it were a time far from the beginning or end of time analogous to the depths of the ocean. I don't see Iluvatar as creating time expliciting, only being unconstrained by linear time.

I wonder about the "Flame Imperishable". It seems to be something outside of Iluvatar that he uses as a source of power or a tool. It may only be a sort of cosmic forge, but it is not clear.

Lief Erikson · 11-22-2002, 01:44 AM

Actually, there your reasoning is a little flawed, Wayfarer. I agree with your conclusion, that IlÃºvatar is outside of time, but I don't agree with your means of reaching that conclusion. Some things simply are, without being created. If you assume that IlÃºvatar's character is righteous and that he hates evil, then it would be stretching things the "Means justify the ends" argument by quite a bit to say that he created evil. IlÃºvatar didn't create himself. There has to be another dimension in which things simply are, without having to become. Time could be one of those things.

However, I don't believe it is. Otherwise, IlÃºvatar shouldn't be able to have any knowledge of the future. The only explanation in that case for his knowledge of the future is predestination. And I don't think either you or I accept predestination. Besides, if there was predestination, and IlÃºvatar's character is righteous, then there shouldn't be any evil. Only free will can explain evil, unless you attack IlÃºvatar's character. And the possibility of free will is explained by IlÃºvatar's being outside of time.

If any of you readers disagree with this, please move to the "IlÃºvatar created Melkor evil?" thread. That is one of the prime things we've been discussing there, although we also get into other things.

***RÃan*** · 11-22-2002, 01:48 AM

I remember reading something like 'the flame is with IlÃºvatar " - I'll try to find it.

To me, I get a picture of "the deeps of time" as almost an ocean, but in a slightly different way; almost as if IlÃºvatar created a "Deeps of Time" area and "immersed" Arda in it - so the inhabitants of Arda are "in" time, but IlÃºvatar and other parts of His creation are outside of it. Just kind of a murky picture I have in my head - does anyone else have a similar picture? (IOW, it's not a particular time, but it contains all times)

***RÃan*** · 11-22-2002, 01:54 AM

Oh, here it is - the 5th paragraph from the beginning:

Quote:

Yet he [Melkor] found not the Fire, for it is with IlÃºvatar.

The way that's worded, it seems like the flame is an integral part of IlÃºvatar, and he may bestow it where he wishes (or part of it, because I wouldn't think His portion would be lessened!). In the 3rd parag., it says that the Ainur were kindled with the Flame Imperishable. Also, when IlÃºvatar says "EÃ¤! Let these things Be!", he puts the Flame into the heart of the world. Also, in Morgoth's Ring somewhere, he gives some to Varda - I'll try to find that tomorrow.

Cirdan · 11-22-2002, 01:57 AM

I did see that but with and within are different. If it resides with him it only means the Ainur can't get to it for their own purposes; that he controls it.

***RÃan*** · 11-22-2002, 02:04 AM

Yes, they are different words - I wonder if it refers to (hang on folks! Remember Tolkien was Catholic! Really, I'm not trying to "force" things here, it's just a thought that just occurred to me) the Holy Spirit? Hmm, I had never thought of that before. This is a thought-provoking thread. Anyway, it is definitely some type of sustaining force that resided only with IlÃºvatar.

Did you see my edits, Cirdan? You posted before I was thru editing. I think you said you didn't have Morgoth's Ring yet, tho - you were hoping to get it for Christmas

I hope you get it! I'll find that section tomorrow, unless someone beats me to it.

Goodnite all! I'm turning in early for once

Lief Erikson · 11-22-2002, 02:50 AM

I thought something along those lines too, RÃ*an, but slightly different. In John it says something very, very similar to "The Flame was with IlÃºvatar." "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God . . ."

Quote:

Originally posted by RÃ*an
In the 3rd parag., it says that the Ainur were kindled with the Flame Imperishable. Also, when IlÃºvatar says "EÃ¤! Let these things Be!", he puts the Flame into the heart of the world.

In Tolkien's writing, things spring to being through the music; in the Bible, things spring to being through God's speaking. Spells in the Silmarillion are sung (As is the music), miracles in the Bible are done by simple commands (As is God's speaking). The Flame is with IlÃºvatar, and I'm filling in a blank, but I think the reason Melkor couldn't find it is because it was IlÃºvatar. IlÃºvatar was the creating force, and Melkor couldn't find the Flame outside of him. The Flame was with IlÃºvatar and the Flame was IlÃºvatar.

This, based upon observations, I think is a reasonable hypothesis. What the Word is, I don't precisely know, but I think the Flame is meant to be the same thing.

This hypothesis isn't proven until we find a quote somewhere that says the Flame is IlÃºvatar, and I'm not trying to force this idea on anyone. Nevertheless, I agree with you RÃ*an; it is interesting to think about.

Quote:

Originally posted by Cirdan
I did see that but with and within are different. If it resides with him it only means the Ainur can't get to it for their own purposes; that he controls it.

I don't profess to understand it either. In the Bible, it is possible. For example, there is the fact that God is One God, yet at the same time he is a Trinity. I think I have a better understanding about the Trinity not being contradictory with One God though than about the Word, or the Flame. Also you become one with your wife or husband when you marry, you become one with God through Jesus Christ . . .

I know we're not discussing the Bible. However, considering that Tolkien was a Christian, it could be the same sort of thing.

Artanis · 11-22-2002, 03:23 AM

I don't think it's important to know what the Flame is exactly. What's important is what it enables IlÃºvatar to do: To create forms of life that are independent of himself and with free will. Aule could create the dwarves, but he did not have the Flame and the dwarves to begin with had no will of their own, but were merely puppets. Independent will were given to the dwarves by IlÃºvatar alone.

***RÃan*** · 11-22-2002, 05:49 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Artanis
I don't think it's important to know what the Flame is exactly. What's important is what it enables IlÃºvatar to do: To create forms of life that are independent of himself and with free will. AulÃ« could create the dwarves, but he did not have the Flame and the dwarves to begin with had no will of their own, but were merely puppets. Independent will were given to the dwarves by IlÃºvatar alone.

Oh, but it's such fun to brainstorm different possibilities

Yes, the dwarves example is interesting. And I really like AulÃ«'s humility, and his willingness to even destroy his work, and how IlÃºvatar then accepts his work and gives it life. But more on that in Chpt. 4!

A little bit from Morgoth's Ring, Athrabeth Finrod ah Andreth, Author's Note #11 (i.e., JRRT, not CRT):

Quote:

This is actually glimpsed in the AinulindalÃ« , in which reference is made to the 'Flame Imperishable'. This appears to mean the Creative activity of Eru (in some sense distinct from or within Him), by which things could be given a 'real' and independent (through derivitive and created) existence. The Flame Imperishable is sent out from Eru, to dwell in the heart of the world, and the world then Is, on the same plane as the Ainur, and they can enter into it.

***RÃan*** · 11-22-2002, 05:59 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Lief Erikson
[B]I thought something along those lines too, RÃ*an, but slightly different. In John it says something very, very similar to "The Flame was with IlÃºvatar." "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God . . ."
..... What the Word is, I don't precisely know ...

I've always understood the Word (in the Bible) to be Jesus - ref. John 1:14 - PM me if you want other refs.

Quote:

I know we're not discussing the Bible. However, considering that Tolkien was a Christian, it could be the same sort of thing.

And I can give you the letter reference where he says he's a Christian! RÃ*an, the letter-meister of Entmoot!

***RÃan*** · 11-22-2002, 06:07 PM

Here's the MR quote about Varda - it's from Myths Transformed II, where JRRT is fiddling around with the idea of the round earth and the sun and moon around before the two trees, etc. :

Quote:

And Melkor was jealous, therefore, of all other brightnesses, and wished to take all light unto himself. Therefore IlÃºvatar, at the entering in of the Valar into EÃ¤, added a theme to the Great Song which was not in it at the first Singing, and he called one of the Ainur to him. Now this was that Spirit which afterwards became Varda (and taking female form became the spouse of ManwÃ«). To Varda IlÃºvatar said: 'I will give unto thee a parting gift. Thou shalt take into EÃ¤ a light that is holy, coming new from Me, unsullied by the thought and lust of Melkor, and with thee it shall enter into EÃ¤, and be in EÃ¤, but not of EÃ¤.'

And then a bit further down, Varda gives a portion of the light into AriÃ«'s keeping (the spirit with the Sun), and Melkor tries to take her and gets burned, and after that, light pained him and he hated it. A brief summary, but I got tired of typing long quotes!

***Earniel*** · 11-22-2002, 06:20 PM

I never really saw the Flame Imperishable as part of IlÃºvatar. I alsways saw it as a sort of tool, one that only IlÃºvatar could wield or create.

***RÃan*** · 11-22-2002, 08:07 PM

Yes, I think I agree with you guys now that it's separate from IlÃºvatar, but as EÃ¤rniel and Cirdan said, only IlÃºvatar can wield/control it.

Lefty Scaevola · 11-22-2002, 08:46 PM

The falme imperishable could be the Tolkien version of the holy spirit/ghoast part of the chistian trinity. it appear to serve a similar purpose with spect to the creation of sentient beings.

***RÃan*** · 11-25-2002, 01:35 AM

Does anyone have any other comments from the supplemental sources?

11-20-2002, 11:04 PM	#61
*RÃan* Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!) Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Not where I want to be ... Posts: 15,254	What are people's opinions on the "Deeps of Time" phrase? I know over in a related thread, "Did IlÃºvatar make Melkor Evil", we've been discussing how we think IlÃºvatar is outside of time, and the people of Arda are in time. __________________ . I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ã‘Ã¡ Ã«?* Ã³Ãº Ã©Ã¤ Ã¯Ã¶Ã¼ Ã–Ã± Ã‰ Ãž Ã° ÃŸ Â® Ã§ Ã¥ â„¢ Ã¦ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lÃ³mÃ«! AurÃ« entuluva!

11-21-2002, 06:23 PM	#64
Lief Erikson Elf Lord Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: Fountain Valley, CA Posts: 6,343	Yes. If you think time is universal, and is for IlÃºvatar as well, then you get into the question also of how anything came to be. How was IlÃºvatar created? How did the first creation begin? IlÃºvatar couldn't have created himself . . . But if you accept another dimension, then everything becomes more reasonable. Things just are; they don't have to be made. Arda is a creation in which many of these rules have been alterred. Last edited by Lief Erikson : 11-21-2002 at 06:24 PM.

11-21-2002, 06:31 PM	#65
Wayfarer The Insufferable Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 3,333	Iluvatar can't possibly be contained by time, if he created it. And if he didn't create it, and he is contained by it, where did it come from? __________________ Disgraced he may be, yet is not dethroned, and keeps the rags of lordship once he owned

11-22-2002, 01:38 AM	#66
Cirdan Elf Lord of the Grey Havens Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: somewhere else Posts: 2,381	The "Deeps of Time" reads to me as though it were a time far from the beginning or end of time analogous to the depths of the ocean. I don't see Iluvatar as creating time expliciting, only being unconstrained by linear time. I wonder about the "Flame Imperishable". It seems to be something outside of Iluvatar that he uses as a source of power or a tool. It may only be a sort of cosmic forge, but it is not clear. __________________ There exists a limit to the force even ther most powerful may apply without destroying themselves. Judging this limit is the true artistry of government. Misuse of power is the fatal sin. The law cannot be a tool of vengance, never a hostage, nor a fortification against the martyrs it has created. You cannot threaten any individual and escape the consequences. -Muad'dib on Law The Stilgar Commentary

11-22-2002, 01:48 AM	#68
*RÃan* Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!) Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Not where I want to be ... Posts: 15,254	I remember reading something like 'the flame is with IlÃºvatar " - I'll try to find it. To me, I get a picture of "the deeps of time" as almost an ocean, but in a slightly different way; almost as if IlÃºvatar created a "Deeps of Time" area and "immersed" Arda in it - so the inhabitants of Arda are "in" time, but IlÃºvatar and other parts of His creation are outside of it. Just kind of a murky picture I have in my head - does anyone else have a similar picture? (IOW, it's not a particular time, but it contains all times) __________________ . I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ã‘Ã¡ Ã«?* Ã³Ãº Ã©Ã¤ Ã¯Ã¶Ã¼ Ã–Ã± Ã‰ Ãž Ã° ÃŸ Â® Ã§ Ã¥ â„¢ Ã¦ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lÃ³mÃ«! AurÃ« entuluva!

11-21-2002, 12:36 PM	#62
Lefty Scaevola AngAdan Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Boerne, Texas Posts: 856	In our universe time is a property of the substance of the universe space time. This time does not exist outside the limits of the universe. I would suppose it it the same in Ea, which is a fictional version of our universe. What ever is ousite has a different time, which may be of an altogether different nature, more different than just being similar to ours but asynchronous.

11-22-2002, 01:44 AM	#67
Lief Erikson Elf Lord Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: Fountain Valley, CA Posts: 6,343	Actually, there your reasoning is a little flawed, Wayfarer. I agree with your conclusion, that IlÃºvatar is outside of time, but I don't agree with your means of reaching that conclusion. Some things simply are, without being created. If you assume that IlÃºvatar's character is righteous and that he hates evil, then it would be stretching things the "Means justify the ends" argument by quite a bit to say that he created evil. IlÃºvatar didn't create himself. There has to be another dimension in which things simply are, without having to become. Time could be one of those things. However, I don't believe it is. Otherwise, IlÃºvatar shouldn't be able to have any knowledge of the future. The only explanation in that case for his knowledge of the future is predestination. And I don't think either you or I accept predestination. Besides, if there was predestination, and IlÃºvatar's character is righteous, then there shouldn't be any evil. Only free will can explain evil, unless you attack IlÃºvatar's character. And the possibility of free will is explained by IlÃºvatar's being outside of time. If any of you readers disagree with this, please move to the "IlÃºvatar created Melkor evil?" thread. That is one of the prime things we've been discussing there, although we also get into other things.

11-22-2002, 01:57 AM	#70
Cirdan Elf Lord of the Grey Havens Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: somewhere else Posts: 2,381	I did see that but with and within are different. If it resides with him it only means the Ainur can't get to it for their own purposes; that he controls it. __________________ There exists a limit to the force even ther most powerful may apply without destroying themselves. Judging this limit is the true artistry of government. Misuse of power is the fatal sin. The law cannot be a tool of vengance, never a hostage, nor a fortification against the martyrs it has created. You cannot threaten any individual and escape the consequences. -Muad'dib on Law The Stilgar Commentary

11-22-2002, 02:04 AM	#71
*RÃan* Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!) Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Not where I want to be ... Posts: 15,254	Yes, they are different words - I wonder if it refers to (hang on folks! Remember Tolkien was Catholic! Really, I'm not trying to "force" things here, it's just a thought that just occurred to me) the Holy Spirit? Hmm, I had never thought of that before. This is a thought-provoking thread. Anyway, it is definitely some type of sustaining force that resided only with IlÃºvatar. Did you see my edits, Cirdan? You posted before I was thru editing. I think you said you didn't have Morgoth's Ring yet, tho - you were hoping to get it for Christmas I hope you get it! I'll find that section tomorrow, unless someone beats me to it. Goodnite all! I'm turning in early for once __________________ . I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ã‘Ã¡ Ã«?* Ã³Ãº Ã©Ã¤ Ã¯Ã¶Ã¼ Ã–Ã± Ã‰ Ãž Ã° ÃŸ Â® Ã§ Ã¥ â„¢ Ã¦ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lÃ³mÃ«! AurÃ« entuluva! Last edited by RÃan : 11-22-2002 at 02:06 AM.

11-22-2002, 03:23 AM	#73
Artanis Greatest Elven woman of Aman Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Having way too much fun with FÃ«anor's 7 Posts: 4,285	I don't think it's important to know what the Flame is exactly. What's important is what it enables IlÃºvatar to do: To create forms of life that are independent of himself and with free will. Aule could create the dwarves, but he did not have the Flame and the dwarves to begin with had no will of their own, but were merely puppets. Independent will were given to the dwarves by IlÃºvatar alone. __________________ --Life is hard, and then we die.

11-22-2002, 06:20 PM	#77
*Earniel* The Chocoholic Sea Elf Administrator Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: N?n in Eilph (Belgium) Posts: 14,363	I never really saw the Flame Imperishable as part of IlÃºvatar. I alsways saw it as a sort of tool, one that only IlÃºvatar could wield or create. __________________ We are not things.

11-22-2002, 08:07 PM	#78
*RÃan* Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!) Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Not where I want to be ... Posts: 15,254	Yes, I think I agree with you guys now that it's separate from IlÃºvatar, but as EÃ¤rniel and Cirdan said, only IlÃºvatar can wield/control it. __________________ . I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ã‘Ã¡ Ã«?* Ã³Ãº Ã©Ã¤ Ã¯Ã¶Ã¼ Ã–Ã± Ã‰ Ãž Ã° ÃŸ Â® Ã§ Ã¥ â„¢ Ã¦ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lÃ³mÃ«! AurÃ« entuluva!

11-22-2002, 08:46 PM	#79
Lefty Scaevola AngAdan Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Boerne, Texas Posts: 856	The falme imperishable could be the Tolkien version of the holy spirit/ghoast part of the chistian trinity. it appear to serve a similar purpose with spect to the creation of sentient beings.

11-25-2002, 01:35 AM	#80
*RÃan* Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!) Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Not where I want to be ... Posts: 15,254	Does anyone have any other comments from the supplemental sources? __________________ . I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ã‘Ã¡ Ã«?* Ã³Ãº Ã©Ã¤ Ã¯Ã¶Ã¼ Ã–Ã± Ã‰ Ãž Ã° ÃŸ Â® Ã§ Ã¥ â„¢ Ã¦ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lÃ³mÃ«! AurÃ« entuluva!