Euthanasia

[BeardofPants]

Originally posted by jerseydevil
Why is it anyone elses business on whether someone chooses to take their own life?

Because, suicide - whether for good reasons or not - has a wonderful way of impacting upon the social network of the person who wants to die. It's not just a matter of, "I'm depressed/sick/bored, I want to kill myself and be done with it", because that persons death is gonna have implications, whether he/she wants it or not. And it is for this reason, that it has to be a responsible decision.

That's murder if you kill someone that doesn't want to die. Completely different from euthanisia or suicide.

Since I'm not in the mood to die right now - yeah I do mind.

Er... Depends on your viewpoint. You can "euthanise" the poor dumb beasts....

[jerseydevil]

A lot of things indirectly affect others. But the point is - I am in charge of my own life. If I choose to take my own life - it does affect the people close to me. But someone that has NO association with me should NOT be getting involved with MY decision.

If someone came on a message board or a chat room and said they were going to kill themselves - yes I would try to help them. I would also feel bad if they ended up doing it. I would not, however, judge them as to whether they did a "bad" thing or say they were a "bad" person because they chose to kill themselves.

I had a friend that was going to attempt suicide - I talked to him for hours. I was concerned for him. I also know many of the problems he is/was going through. If he ended up succeeding, I would have felt terrible, but I still couldn't have judged his decision as to whether it was right or wrong.

The world is full of greys, not black and whites.

[mirrille]

Originally posted by Rosie-Lass
If they genuinely wanted to get better then they would seek help.

This statement bothers me alot. I do some volunteer work that does give me some fairly regular contact with very depressed people, some of whom are at varying risks for suicide. The thing to realize is that most people do seek help, in their way. But they often don't get it. I've talked to people who have no options, and no friends, no family to support them, nowhere to go. It's very easy to say something like that when you've never been in a situation like that. But from what I've heard, when you're in that hole, you do want to get better, but the whole point is that you truly believe that there is no help in the whole world, no matter what you do. You feel like you've exhausted all the options and nothing works. It's not so easy not having any hope.

Like JD says, you do what you can for them, but don't judge them. That's the worst thing you can do. So for example, if I said something like "if you really wanted to get better, you wouldn't be like this.. you'd seek help, you'd toughen up..or whatever.", umm...I could be pretty sure of losing that person.

[Blackheart]

I say hand 'em a rope and a bottle of pills.

More cake left for me!

[Rosie-Lass]

Sorry Mirrille, I don't have your or JD's experiences behind me. All I'm going on is what I think. I don't think I'm even making educated guesses. I'm just saying that if you've exhausted other options and have no other means of help and don't want to ask then suicide is the kind of thing you would think of, even if you wanted help, I really don't know, I've never been in that situation and never wish to be.

Like JD says, you do what you can for them, but don't judge them.

And I totally agree with this. If my previous post bothers you that much I'll edit it. I never judge anybody by their decisions. It doesn't make somebody any less of a person if they decide to take their own life, all you can do is comiserate with them because they felt this way in the first place. Somebody said this earlier: (from memory, can't find the post) "Their suicidal state may go unnoticed and then there is shock and relatives say "They were always so quiet". This ignorance may be why they wish to commit suicide in the first place.

[mirrille]

It's ok Rosie. Yes the statement bothered me, but as long as you understand why, then I'm glad we got to talk about it.
I guess I just want everyone to understand that we can accomplish much more good by being supportive than by being judgemental, especially in the face of despair.

[Wayfarer]

Now you're talking about whether or not people have the right to commit suicide. That's rather different from euthanasia.

even in the most politically correct sense of hte word, euthanasia is assisted suicide. And it usually means that one's death is affected by a doctor.

So you see, jerseydevil, it's rather difficult to affect euthanasa without a doctor. And any doctor must ultimately be under government supervision, to make sure they act responsibly.

Also, euthanasia most often applies to cases where there is terminal illness, or some other reason. Suicide is usually when they just don't want to live.

I ask again: If there was a suicide booth on every street corner, how many of us would have made it through puberty?

When a friend is going to kill themself, what do you do? You try and help them through it. The government does the same thing, although with less effect. They want to help suicidal people through their problems, but they fail. That's pretty pathetic, but it's better then if they just stood back and let them die, or worse, help them.

[jerseydevil]

I realise this has gotten off of euthanisia a little and onto suicide.

About the government's role. My argument is that the government has no right to come between me and MY decisions when it ocmes to my life (or death as the case may be). I understand there would be some restrictions - you wouldn't want someone killing off their father or mother to collect an inheritance for example. You wouldn't want doctors killing off patients to make room for others. But it is still my decision if I want to die.

In terms of getting through puberty - a lot of people would make it through. There is nothing out there that prevents people form killing themselves right now. And I'm not talking about having suicide booths nor am I talking about euthanisia for people that are depressed. I'm talking about people with terminal illnesses, that are in physical pain or mentally decapacitated. They have a right to choose how they should live or die.

[mirrille]

I'm with JD on this one. My belief that the government shouldn't have any right to dictate whether or not I can die if I so choose is the same one that makes me think the government should just please butt out of people's choice to euthanasia. The only place i can think of where some outside regulation should come in is just to straighten out and set up clear guidelines as to what constitutes appropriate or informed consent.
To my mind, there is in principle very little difference between suicide and assisted suicide. The only difference is you get some assistance. Hence the term "assisted" suicide. It's just a subset of all the ways you can do it.
And yes, at present, I can't get charged with murder for killing myself. But I still made it through puberty.

[azalea]

Well, the gov can't do anything about someone killing themself, but they can punish someone who lends their aid to that person if it is determined that doing so is against the law. That is really where the debate is. I personally think it should be against the law, as I don't agree with suicide. Again I say if someone wants to end his own life, he should do it on his own and not entangle others into it. Others should try to do what they can to help the person live out the remaining days in comfort, but not assist suicide.

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by azalea
I personally think it should be against the law, as I don't agree with suicide. Again I say if someone wants to end his own life, he should do it on his own and not entangle others into it. Others should try to do what they can to help the person live out the remaining days in comfort, but not assist suicide.

Why though do you think you have a right to determine what I do with my OWN life? If you don't believe in assisted suicide then tell people that it's something you don't want for yourself. Why shouldn't I be able to have people end my life painlessly if I get a debilitating illness and have to live the rest of my days in pain? It's what I want for myself.

[mirrille]

One can disagree all one likes with suicide. Should still let people make their own choices.
It's all about respecting other people's choices for their own lives. If you ever talk someone out of killing themselves, you know it's because somewhere in the conversation, that person made the choice to stop. If you've ever lost them, you know it's because they chose that in the end.
Sometimes we don't understand why other people think differently that we do, but when it comes to personal decisions, it's not up to us. We may want to control, but that's a mistake. It's also very disrespectful. People are responsible for their own decisions.

[Earniel]

I don't think one should judge euthanasia the same as suicide, although the basis may be the same. Euthanasia is about wanting to die when there is very little way of recovery. And the person that wants to die is often not able anymore to kill himself.

I do think the government should have a hand in it but not on judging whether or not you get to die. But you need legislation otherwise any one who assists a friend or familiemember to commit euthanasia (if you can use that phrase like that) can get convicted for murder.

[azalea]

Euthanasia is not doing something with your own life, it's having others do it for you.
It is my personal belief that suicide is wrong, so that is why I oppose it, and why I oppose assisted suicide. However, I stated that the REAL debate is not whether people should be "allowed" to kill themselves (that is impossible and ridiculous anyway), but whether or not others whould be allowed to be in the business (doctors) of providing people drugs or what have you for the purpose of euthanasia.
From a political view, this is something that would need to be very heavily regulated and the law would need to be foolproof. I mean, this could get tricky: imagine the trials that might happen -- "I didn't murder my spouse, he/ she WANTED to die" (how would we know for certain, and that it wasn't a case of the caregiver being overwhelmed, but not wanting the guilt of institutionalizing the person?). Also, some doctors might encourage it as a way of making a profit (this would hopefully be rare, but there are sick and greedy people out there), also the very elderly and the mentally ill, or for that matter those w/ mental disablilties -- could they make a sound decision? And then the obvious point of people who are NOT terminally ill wanting use of these services to kill themselves -- should we really allow that? I just don't think this should be a business that we allow to be legal. There are too many variables and it is such a serious matter.
I certainly don't want to "tell others what to do with their lives" if my opinion is unasked for, but as a citizen I would oppose euthanasia being legalized. Suicide should not be a legal business.

[BeardofPants]

Originally posted by azalea
I just don't think this should be a business that we allow to be legal. There are too many variables and it is such a serious matter.

So is abortion, sweetie.

However, given the regulation - and I don't know too much about this, Earniel can probably explain better than I can - I think that it is possible to set up a system which can't be abused that easily. Things like needing more than one doctors written permission, shrink imput, and so forth. If they make the red tape hard enough, only the most stubborn will make it through...

Earniel, can you please give some more imput on the proceedures used in your country?

[Radagast]

I must say I agree with Wayfarer on this one.

[Earniel]

Originally posted by BeardofPants
Earniel, can you please give some more imput on the proceedures used in your country?

You'll have to wait a little longer on that. I don't listen to the news that much lately. (exams and such) I'll have to look up the exact details.

[Rána Eressëa]

Originally posted by Garina
If someone asks you to kill them, that's suicide, and that's wrong. You shouldn't try to persuade someone to do something like that, however much pain you are in.

su·i·cide - (n.) The act or an instance of intentionally killing oneself.

It can't actually be suicide unless you're the one to physically kill yourself.

I'd end the life of a friend (only if they asked me to), if it meant it would free them from physical suffering. I couldn't just let them slowly die while in excruciating pain - it's too cruel.

[Imladris]

Originally posted by Garina
[B]I am a Christian, the New Testament does not condone killing.

B]

I'm not christian but how about, thou shalt not murder?

[Imladris]

On euthanasia:

This is what my religion says. I'm not saying everyone should agree with it, but I do.
EUTHANASIA IS WRONG.

Why, according to one of my teachers.
The phrase is often heard by a supporter of euthanasia, "...dignity of life.."
Dignity of life (according to my religion) is being able to do a good deed, and, when in no position to do a good deed giving someone else the opportunity of doing a good deed for you. Take, for example, a dying man in hospital, every nurse, doctor and consultant is helping him (giving him food, relieving pain, preparing food, keeping him alive al ittle bit longer etc.) therefore, because of him good deeds are being done and thereforre he has dignity of life. All relatives, friends etc. who visit him/her are doing a good deed, he therefore still has dignity of life, all good deeds done for him are counted as if he/she is doing them himself.
If somebody was only being kept alive by life support, then, according to most authorities of my religion, he/she is not alive, then the machine can be turned off.