Relativism VS. Absoulte - Page 4

FrodoFriend · 03-13-2002, 03:56 PM

By the way, I'm going on vacation in five minutes and won't be back for a few days, so I won't be able to answer. If you have any specific arguments, maybe you could PM me?

emplynx · 03-13-2002, 05:08 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by noldo
Tater, why did you close the homosexuality discussion? I want blood.

I was ready to kick some butt on that thread when I read "Closed". I yelled at Tater for it.

emplynx · 03-13-2002, 05:11 PM

CardenIAntauraNauco and Wayfarer, I know that you are trying to argue for Christianity. I agree 100% with all christianity, but I have learned that arguing with some one online about Religion does not work. I think that true Christianity is shown by actions and feelings. I believe that "Love your neigabor as you love youself" is the key part of Christianity. I am not trying to appear better than you guys, but I just want you to have my opinion on the topic.

Nibs · 03-13-2002, 05:35 PM

True that.

Hallelujah.

Wayfarer · 03-13-2002, 06:11 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by emplynx
I think that true Christianity is shown by actions and feelings. I believe that "Love your neigabor as you love youself" is the key part of Christianity.

Yeah, Right. Sure. If you say so. ]: )

Didn't I say that earlier in this thread? Ah, well. Such truths oft bear reiteration.

Kyote Fields · 03-13-2002, 06:57 PM

In essentials - Unity
In non-essentials - Liberty
In all thngs - Charity (or love)

Love is all you need.

I like the way that C.S. Lewis tackles this subject in the first chapter of Mere Christianity.

Also intresting to see how many professing Christians there are at this messageboard.

Gildor · 03-13-2002, 11:29 PM

It doesn't surprise me that there are many Christians on this forum. Tolkien was a Christian, and his books reflect that worldview. He doesn't preach, but there is an unmistakable air of grandeur--worlds greater than what we know, certainty of immortality, good, evil--and a choice which condemns or redeems.
I appreciate that as much as his wonderful way with words.

Nibs · 03-14-2002, 12:49 AM

Eloquent post, Gildor. I agree. "Unmistakable air of grandeur" is very descriptive and succinct.

Back to relativism and absolutism... is this a discussion of the morals we individually proclaim to abide by (or don't) or our own lifestyles? Either way, I look at relativism as rationalization for wrongdoing. Who can argue with the Golden Rule? NOT "He who has the gold makes the rules," but rather:

Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.

No one likes being hurt mentally, emotionally, or physically (okay, I apologize to any masochists out there; you're the exception). How can some one steal something from another person knowing they wouldn't like it done to himself? They rationalize. "I need it more than they do," and other such thoughts. Innately wrong.

We're all guilty of this type of action, and me not the least.

Don't we see evidence of this idea every where? When you treat some one kindly, what do they most often do in return? They do likewise. Not always; some haven't heard of the Rule

.

That's my position. I hope you find it pertinent and germane.

**crickhollow** · 03-14-2002, 01:48 AM

You might be surprised at how many different religions and cultures have almost word for word the phrase "do unto others as you would have them do unto you". It would seem that this is a moral absolute stretching much farther than our self absorbed western culture. You'll find it in Hinduism, Buddhism, and Islam, as well as others, but I can't remember the entire list. Link that with Judaism and Christianity, and you've got the majority of people on this planet exposed to "The Golden Rule".

noldo · 03-15-2002, 11:31 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by emplynx

I was ready to kick some butt on that thread when I read "Closed". I yelled at Tater for it.

Sorry, but now you misunderstood me... See, I only like other guys... And wasn't very pleased to read some of the comments on the topic.

emplynx · 03-15-2002, 01:49 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by noldo

Sorry, but now you misunderstood me... See, I only like other guys... And wasn't very pleased to read some of the comments on the topic.

Sigh.

**crickhollow** · 03-15-2002, 03:44 PM

Hey, don't start that again! It was probably a good thing that Tater closed that thread. There's a world of hurt and anger coming from both sides of that issue. Emplynx, I suspect that the issue will become more complicated for you when you actually have friends, acquaintances, or relatives who are gay. It becomes impossible to make blanket statements condemning all homosexuals to hell. It's no longer a black and white issue, and this whole experience has taught me a huge, huge lesson in compassion for those whom I at first perceived as so much different than me.

Love your neighbor as yourself: translation: Love everybody! blacks, hispanics, Muslims, Jews, Buddhists, Christians, caucasians, homosexuals, lesbians, feminists, straight white males, AND....your fellow mooters

*crick steps off her soapbox*
Now that we've dealt with the rabbit trail, does anyone wanna take the discussion back on to Relativism?

**crickhollow** · 03-15-2002, 03:49 PM

Quote:

and this whole experience has taught me a huge, huge lesson in compassion

by that I mean going to a secular college (tho' I'm at a Christian University now), and working in a very non-Christian environment; In short, stepping out of my sheltered environment, and being confronted with stuff that I had never had to deal with before.

emplynx · 03-15-2002, 06:06 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by crickhollow
Love your neighbor as yourself: translation: Love everybody! blacks, hispanics, Muslims, Jews, Buddhists, Christians, caucasians, homosexuals, lesbians, feminists, straight white males, AND....your fellow mooters

I agree with that 100%, but I still disagree with some of those things.

Wayfarer · 03-16-2002, 06:51 PM

Quote:

I suspect that the issue will become more complicated for you when you actually have friends, acquaintances, or relatives who are gay.

For the record-I do.

Quote:

It becomes impossible to make blanket statements condemning all homosexuals to hell.

I'm afraid I must... what's a suitable phrase?... 'lay the muffins down' ]: ) on this issue, crick.

It is not only possible, but nescessary that we be unequivocal. And I do not mean simply homosexuals. One of the very foundations of Christianity is that all men are imperfect and in line for a quick trip to fire and brimstone. The homosexual no more than the heterosexual, the hedonist no more than the moralist, and the criminal no more than the priest.

This is the very epitomy of moral absolutism. Absolute-God is perfect. Absolute-We're not.

Another absolute-there's only one way to heaven. The good news is, they're giving out tickets ahead of time for free. Just ask.

Darth Tater · 03-16-2002, 08:28 PM

Wayfarer, even if you believe homosexuality is a sin, you can't condemn someone to hell for it. We are all sinners, and even the greatest of Christians make mistakes. I once read the life story of a man named Father Arseny (utterly dull book, but that's not the point). He's in line for canonization I'm sure, he was a real holy man, working many miracles. Once he had an affair with his maid. He moved on, begged forgiveness, and it certainly seems he died at peace.

**crickhollow** · 03-17-2002, 12:44 AM

Ahh, I see what you mean. Romans 3:23 (All have sinned), John 3:16 (God so loved the world that he gave is only son, that whoever believes in him will not perish, but have eternal life), and John 14:6 (I am the way, the truth, and the life, no one comes to the Father without me), right? It doesn't matter whether you're gay or straight without the Son. What about Christian gays?

Rána Eressëa · 03-17-2002, 03:29 AM

"Do not do unto others as you would have them do unto you...for they may not feel the same way."

In conclusion, I agree whole-heartedly with FrodoFriend on everything she has said and how beautifully she has put it

As for another note: "And one must not seek to become saint or sinner, God or Devil. One must seek to become human and to love the fact of one's humanity." --The War Hound and the World's Pain by Michael Moorcock

Wayfarer · 03-17-2002, 03:55 PM

Tater, I have the vaguest of impressions that you are completely and totally missing my point.

Quote:

Originally posted by Darth Tater
Wayfarer, even if you believe homosexuality is a sin, you can't condemn someone to hell for it.

I'm not condemning anybody to anything. But sin (and homosexuality is a sin, but that's beside the point,because I don't need to pick on that specefic one), anything less than perfection, is enough to seperate man from God and land him in hell.

Quote:

Originally posted by Darth Tater
[B]We are all sinners, and even the greatest of Christians make mistakes.

Let me quote myself, just for the sake of redundancy

Quote:

all men are imperfect and in line for a quick trip to fire and brimstone.

(emphasis added)

Quote:

Originally posted by Darth Tater
Father Arseny...was a real holy man, working many miracles. Once he had an affair with his maid. He moved on, begged forgiveness, and it certainly seems he died at peace.

Oh, no! He had an affair. So have lots of people. A few biblical examples spring to mind. That's not the issue here. The real thing to notice is that he asked for forgiveness and moved on.

Even if he had commited murder, he would have been forgiven had he asked and moved on. And even if his worst sin was gossip, it would have been enough to get him into hell if he had refused to ask for forgiveness and persisted,it would be enough to send him to hell.

Now... Gay christians?

If a man was sleeping with his neighbors wife (or his maid), and he became a christian, we would expect him to stop and ask forgiveness.
If a man had a problem with drinking, and he became a christian, we would expect that he make at least some effort towards cleaning himself up.
And no, I don't claim christians are perfect. Yes, I understand that problems will invariably persist for some time. I know (firsthand) that even christians are very pronbe to slip up regularly. That's not the point. Anybody who claims to be a christian, yet regularly, continually, and knowingly persists in flouting christian morals has a large problem.

This is the category I place gay christians in.

Rána Eressëa · 03-17-2002, 04:11 PM

I have my reasons for not seeing homosexuality as a sin in general, but only as a sin against nature.

Apparently Christianity is about love: well, what if a guy is in love with a guy? How is that supposed to be wrong when the whole point of this religion is love? Of course, them being both male isn't physically natural compatible-wise, but we're focusing in on the mind here. I can't say someone is wrong for being in love - whether they be gay, straight, or bi.

But when you look at it physically, is it wrong? Yes. Same sexes aren't compatible naturally, so it is against the law of nature.

Therefore, I have two different views of that. Emotionally it is not wrong, but physically it is.

03-13-2002, 03:56 PM	#61
FrodoFriend Halfwitted Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Eryn Vorn Posts: 1,659	By the way, I'm going on vacation in five minutes and won't be back for a few days, so I won't be able to answer. If you have any specific arguments, maybe you could PM me? __________________ Fingolfin lives! ... in my finger! The Crossroads of Arda - Warning. Halfwit content. Not appropriate for people with IQ of over 18. The Fellowship of the Message Board Nyáréonié - The Tale of Tears

03-13-2002, 05:35 PM	#64
Nibs Head Hollara Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Texas Posts: 751	True that. Hallelujah. __________________ "People used to ring up and say 'Don't quit your day job' or 'sell your synth', but the joke's on them: we were fired and the synth is broken!" -John Flansburgh from They Might Be Giants Ever heard of Mormons? I'm one. Click here to know more about us.

03-13-2002, 06:57 PM	#66
Kyote Fields Elven Warrior Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: California Posts: 218	In essentials - Unity In non-essentials - Liberty In all thngs - Charity (or love) Love is all you need. I like the way that C.S. Lewis tackles this subject in the first chapter of Mere Christianity. Also intresting to see how many professing Christians there are at this messageboard. __________________ No longer posting. If you'd like to write to me I can be reached at kyote_fields@hotmail.com. It was nice knowing all of you.

03-13-2002, 11:29 PM	#67
Gildor Hobbit Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: rural America Posts: 37	It doesn't surprise me that there are many Christians on this forum. Tolkien was a Christian, and his books reflect that worldview. He doesn't preach, but there is an unmistakable air of grandeur--worlds greater than what we know, certainty of immortality, good, evil--and a choice which condemns or redeems. I appreciate that as much as his wonderful way with words. __________________ Yet such is oft the course of deeds that move the wheels of the world: small hands do them because they must, while the eyes of the great are elsewhere.

03-14-2002, 12:49 AM	#68
Nibs Head Hollara Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Texas Posts: 751	Eloquent post, Gildor. I agree. "Unmistakable air of grandeur" is very descriptive and succinct. Back to relativism and absolutism... is this a discussion of the morals we individually proclaim to abide by (or don't) or our own lifestyles? Either way, I look at relativism as rationalization for wrongdoing. Who can argue with the Golden Rule? NOT "He who has the gold makes the rules," but rather: Do unto others as you would have them do unto you. No one likes being hurt mentally, emotionally, or physically (okay, I apologize to any masochists out there; you're the exception). How can some one steal something from another person knowing they wouldn't like it done to himself? They rationalize. "I need it more than they do," and other such thoughts. Innately wrong. We're all guilty of this type of action, and me not the least. Don't we see evidence of this idea every where? When you treat some one kindly, what do they most often do in return? They do likewise. Not always; some haven't heard of the Rule . That's my position. I hope you find it pertinent and germane. __________________ "People used to ring up and say 'Don't quit your day job' or 'sell your synth', but the joke's on them: we were fired and the synth is broken!" -John Flansburgh from They Might Be Giants Ever heard of Mormons? I'm one. Click here to know more about us.

03-13-2002, 05:11 PM	#63
emplynx Self-Appointed Lord of the Free Peoples of the General Messages Join Date: Nov 2001 Posts: 1,214	CardenIAntauraNauco and Wayfarer, I know that you are trying to argue for Christianity. I agree 100% with all christianity, but I have learned that arguing with some one online about Religion does not work. I think that true Christianity is shown by actions and feelings. I believe that "Love your neigabor as you love youself" is the key part of Christianity. I am not trying to appear better than you guys, but I just want you to have my opinion on the topic.

03-14-2002, 01:48 AM	#69
crickhollow The Buckleberry Fairy/Captain Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Washington State again (I miss Texas). Posts: 1,345	You might be surprised at how many different religions and cultures have almost word for word the phrase "do unto others as you would have them do unto you". It would seem that this is a moral absolute stretching much farther than our self absorbed western culture. You'll find it in Hinduism, Buddhism, and Islam, as well as others, but I can't remember the entire list. Link that with Judaism and Christianity, and you've got the majority of people on this planet exposed to "The Golden Rule". __________________ A day will come at last when I Shall take the hidden paths that run West of the Moon, East of the Sun.

03-15-2002, 03:44 PM	#72
crickhollow The Buckleberry Fairy/Captain Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Washington State again (I miss Texas). Posts: 1,345	Hey, don't start that again! It was probably a good thing that Tater closed that thread. There's a world of hurt and anger coming from both sides of that issue. Emplynx, I suspect that the issue will become more complicated for you when you actually have friends, acquaintances, or relatives who are gay. It becomes impossible to make blanket statements condemning all homosexuals to hell. It's no longer a black and white issue, and this whole experience has taught me a huge, huge lesson in compassion for those whom I at first perceived as so much different than me. Love your neighbor as yourself: translation: Love everybody! blacks, hispanics, Muslims, Jews, Buddhists, Christians, caucasians, homosexuals, lesbians, feminists, straight white males, AND....your fellow mooters crick steps off her soapbox Now that we've dealt with the rabbit trail, does anyone wanna take the discussion back on to Relativism? __________________ A day will come at last when I Shall take the hidden paths that run West of the Moon, East of the Sun.

03-16-2002, 08:28 PM	#76
Darth Tater The man Join Date: Sep 1999 Location: MA Posts: 4,572	Wayfarer, even if you believe homosexuality is a sin, you can't condemn someone to hell for it. We are all sinners, and even the greatest of Christians make mistakes. I once read the life story of a man named Father Arseny (utterly dull book, but that's not the point). He's in line for canonization I'm sure, he was a real holy man, working many miracles. Once he had an affair with his maid. He moved on, begged forgiveness, and it certainly seems he died at peace. __________________ Visit the worlds greatest webpage! No, not The Tolkien Trail! Just click this! The Tolkien Trail ~Camelot

03-17-2002, 12:44 AM	#77
crickhollow The Buckleberry Fairy/Captain Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Washington State again (I miss Texas). Posts: 1,345	Ahh, I see what you mean. Romans 3:23 (All have sinned), John 3:16 (God so loved the world that he gave is only son, that whoever believes in him will not perish, but have eternal life), and John 14:6 (I am the way, the truth, and the life, no one comes to the Father without me), right? It doesn't matter whether you're gay or straight without the Son. What about Christian gays? __________________ A day will come at last when I Shall take the hidden paths that run West of the Moon, East of the Sun.

03-17-2002, 03:29 AM	#78
Rána Eressëa The Rogue Elf Join Date: Jan 2002 Posts: 1,722	"Do not do unto others as you would have them do unto you...for they may not feel the same way." In conclusion, I agree whole-heartedly with FrodoFriend on everything she has said and how beautifully she has put it As for another note: "And one must not seek to become saint or sinner, God or Devil. One must seek to become human and to love the fact of one's humanity." --The War Hound and the World's Pain by Michael Moorcock Last edited by Rána Eressëa : 03-17-2002 at 03:41 AM.

03-17-2002, 04:11 PM	#80
Rána Eressëa The Rogue Elf Join Date: Jan 2002 Posts: 1,722	I have my reasons for not seeing homosexuality as a sin in general, but only as a sin against nature. Apparently Christianity is about love: well, what if a guy is in love with a guy? How is that supposed to be wrong when the whole point of this religion is love? Of course, them being both male isn't physically natural compatible-wise, but we're focusing in on the mind here. I can't say someone is wrong for being in love - whether they be gay, straight, or bi. But when you look at it physically, is it wrong? Yes. Same sexes aren't compatible naturally, so it is against the law of nature. Therefore, I have two different views of that. Emotionally it is not wrong, but physically it is.

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