Emblem of Minas Morgul

[Gordis]

Well, Alcuin, Re: Sauron's butt I was not entirely serious.

Originally Posted by CAB

Regarding the retreat on Weathertop, I think we do the Nazgul a disservice by concentrating on the Barrow-blade itself rather than on the implications of Frodo's possession of the sword. The Nazgul expected to find a helpless prey on the hill, but instead saw something quite different (at least in their minds). In the heat of that moment they were probably thinking something like: "A Barrow-blade? Why does he have that? Does he know our weaknesses? How did he get that? He must have defeated a wight. How could a halfling defeat a wight? Wait a minute! Has he learned how to wield the Ring? Uh-oh."

I agree completely. And note what a huge effort of will must have been required of a nazgul to attack the wielder of the One, whom the nazgul "had been conditioned to treat with servility".(L #246)

Originally Posted by Alcuin

Ooh! I missed those! Thanks!

Added later

FYI, RotK, “Appendix A” says that Narmacil II was killed fighting against the Wainriders; in UT, “Cirion and Eorl” (footnote 8), Tolkien says this battle was called the Battle of the Plains. As for Argeleb I and Arveleg I, they are good candidates, and they certainly died as a result of the Witch-king’s machinations. “Appendix A” says, “Argeleb ... was slain in battle with Rhudaur and Angmar. ... A great host came out of Angmar in 1409, ... and surrounded Weathertop. The Dúnedain were defeated and Arveleg was slain.”

I will incorporate the information about Arveleg and a note documenting the reference to an alternate ending for Narmacil into the essay. Thanks again!

You are welcome, Alcuin.
Note only that the passage about Narmakil and the WK was soon rewritten :

At this time the Ulairi (or Ringwraiths) who had seized Mordor long before began to assail Ithilien. Narmakil was slain by the Sorcerer- king. Osgiliath ceased to be the seat of the kings.

This was roughly rewritten to read:
In his time it is said that the Ulairi (or Ringwraiths) arose again and re-entered Mordor secretly. There they prepared in the darkness for the return of their Dark Lord. Men out of the East, a fierce people riding in great wains, came against Gondor, doubtless stirred up by Sauron and Ulairi. Narmakil slain in battle.
This was the first appearance of the Wainriders.

Tolkien postponed and postponed the relocation of the Witch-King to Mordor and the fall of Minas Ithil. Obviously, now (when these events are postponed to 1980 and 2002) the killing of Narmacil by the WK in 1856 couldn't have occurred. The WK was still quite busy in the North.

As for Argeleb I, perhaps he should be taken off the WK's list of victims:

Argeleb I. born 1226, lived 130 years + slain 1356. Argeleb fortifies the Weather Hills. He was slain in battle with Rhudaur (with secret aid of Angmar); the enemy tries to seize the palantir of Amon Sul.-HOME XII

Now how can the aid of Angmar be termed "secret" if the King of Angmar was there in person and slew Arthedain's King? Impossible.

His son Arveleg, however, is a neat case.

[Alcuin]

Originally Posted by Gordis

Well, Alcuin, Re: Sauron's butt I was not entirely serious.

That’s a relief.

Originally Posted by Gordis

As for Argeleb I, perhaps he should be taken off the WK's list of victims... how can the aid of Angmar be termed "secret" if the King of Angmar was there in person and slew Arthedain's King? Impossible.

“Appendix A” reads,

Argeleb ... was slain in battle with Rhudaur and Angmar.

That reads as if it were an open war, not secret war. Just because the Witch-king didn’t personally “pull the trigger” doesn’t mean he wasn’t responsible for the outcome.

[Gordis]

Oh, he was responsible all right, but he couldn't have slain Argeleb by his own hand.

[Attalus]

I believe that we have established to everyone's satisfaction that the Nazgul lacked courage. How not? Courage is a moral virtue, and of that they had none, nor did Sauron, their Master. The W-K's strike at Frodo with the Morgul-knife was obviously a mere stab at random, and we all know that "the hasty stroke goes oft astray." They then ran away from Aragorn and the Ring-bearer, hoping against hope that they had mortally wounded the latter. When it became obvious that Frodo's wound was not immediately mortal, (though it would have been, without Elrond's intervention) they tried to rush the company. I am not sure what they thought they were going to do except maybe trample them with the black horses, but it was enough to make Aragorn fly from them, and I don't blame him.

*resists impulse to make bad joke about the Black Cheek*

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by Attalus

I believe that we have established to everyone's satisfaction that the Nazgul lacked courage.

No we didn't

Originally Posted by Attalus

How not? Courage is a moral virtue, and of that they had none, nor did Sauron, their Master.

Courage is not such a straightforward thigh as you imply, IMO.

There is suicidal courage displayed by Fingolfin, Earnur and Eowyn

There is courage of those pitted against a wall and choosing a glorious death to flight or dying to protect others: Glorfindel, Ecthelion and Gandalf against Balrogs, Hurin against Morgoth, Haradrim and Easterlings dying but not surrendering at the Pelennor.

There is calculated, reasonable courage like Aragorn's (the guy didn't try to fight a balrog or knock on the gates of Barad-Dur, did he?), or Sauron's (going out to meet Huan, setting shop in the enemy Eregion, going as prisoner to Numenor, laughing from the Temple roof at the lightnings striking around him, later confronting the lords of the Alliance), or Witch-King's (who was ready to fight Earnur but not Glorfindel, to fight Gandalf when it was unavoidable, and to confront the wielder of the One Ring armed with a Barrow blade).

And there is cowardice, which is not the same as refusing to fight a much stronger opponent. The latter is wisdom and I assure you Earnur would have done much better staying at home and finding a wife, than going to Minas Morgul.

Originally Posted by Attalus

The W-K's strike at Frodo with the Morgul-knife was obviously a mere stab at random, and we all know that "the hasty stroke goes oft astray."

Prove it. I have already given my opinion on the action of the Morgul blades.

Originally Posted by Attalus

They then ran away from Aragorn and the Ring-bearer, hoping against hope that they had mortally wounded the latter.

Why "against hope"? In all the previous cases a Morgul wound had been lethal and it only took a few days to overcome a strong man.

[CAB]

Originally Posted by Alcuin

Bad idea. If Sauron was concerned that the presence of the Ringwraiths would disturb the countryside, what would his own overwhelming presence have done? Moreover, Sauron was not without fear, as Gandalf and Aragorn observed. His enemies could have attacked him, and he would have been far afield in hostile territory. Sauron did not build up his immense power by taking long risks: he did it by taking short risks, sacrificing the lives of others, and overwhelming his opponents. He could calculate a risk quite well (e.g., going to Númenor as Ar-Pharazôn’s “prisoner”), but for him, it was all cold, hard logic, with no feeling, and no soul.

I believe I too have been misunderstood. Sure it would have been a bad idea for Sauron to pursue the Ring himself because his recovery of the Ring was not important enough to justify the risk. The Ring was not the be all and end all for Sauron. This is the point I was trying to make. If the retrieval of the Ring had (in Sauron's mind) been truly that "it all comes down to this / this is the point of victory vs defeat" crucial, then yes, I do think Sauron would have been forced to go after the Ring personally. He wasn't because, again, the Ring was only a piece of the puzzle for him.

[Alcuin]

The Morgul-knife (in the “Hunt for the Ring” MSS Tolkien calls it “Mordor-knife”) was not meant to kill its victims immediately. It reduced them to wraiths under the control of the Nazgûl. They were terrible weapons: a person struck by such a weapon faced a horrific fate unless he could find someone who could quickly and completely remove all the fragments of the blade. That’s how long the “Hunt for the Ring” MSS says men “marked” with these weapons lasted before succumbing to its effects.

For the record, Boromir I, Ruling Steward of Gondor 2477–2489, died youngest of all the Ruling Stewards because he was struck by a Morgul-knife in war with Minas Morgul in Ithilien in 2475. Note that not only was he cured, but the Council of Gondor still trusted him to be Ruling Steward; however, “he became shrunken with pain and died”. But the fact that he lived at all indicates that he must immediately have received the very best treatment available in Minas Tirith.

Without proper treatment, victims and their friends and families faced a horrible choice. In one or two days, the person would become a wraith. Or perhaps he could commit suicide, or his friends or family could kill him. Lovely choices for Faithful Dúnedain.

Killing immediately with a Morgul-knife is wasting the weapon. Wound, don’t kill is the rule.

-|-

In regards to Sauron chasing the Ring himself, my comments are only semi-directed at you, Gordis and CAB. This idea pops up from time to time, but it quickly falls apart under examination. You did both seem to be half in jest. I seem to have be a little short in appreciating irony. No offense intended, and none taken, I hope.

[CAB]

Originally Posted by Gordis

No we didn't

Well, I am not ready to debate the meaning of courage, but I don't see the Nazgul as cowards. They didn't love Sauron. He trapped them (horribly). They almost certainly hated him as much as is humanly (wraith-lly?) possible. Why would their refusal to lay down their lives for someone like Sauron make them cowards? They weren't protecting anyone. The was no "great cause" they were fighting for. I have a tough time seeing cowardice in such a situation.

[Attalus]

Originally Posted by Gordis

No we didn't


Courage is not such a straightforward thigh as you imply, IMO.

There is suicidal courage displayed by Fingolfin, Earnur and Eowyn

There is courage of those pitted against a wall and choosing a glorious death to flight or dying to protect others: Glorfindel, Ecthelion and Gandalf against Balrogs, Hurin against Morgoth, Haradrim and Easterlings dying but not surrendering at the Pelennor.

There is calculated, reasonable courage like Aragorn's (the guy didn't try to fight a balrog or knock on the gates of Barad-Dur, did he?), or Sauron's (going out to meet Huan, setting shop in the enemy Eregion, going as prisoner to Numenor, laughing from the Temple roof at the lightnings striking around him, later confronting the lords of the Alliance), or Witch-King's (who was ready to fight Earnur but not Glorfindel, to fight Gandalf when it was unavoidable, and to confront the wielder of the One Ring armed with a Barrow blade).

And there is cowardice, which is not the same as refusing to fight a much stronger opponent. The latter is wisdom and I assure you Earnur would have done much better staying at home and finding a wife, than going to Minas Morgul.

This may or not be true, but I would be happier with some examples of courage in the Nazgul.

Prove it. I have already given my opinion on the action of the Morgul blades.

Easy. We have Gandalf's testimony that "They was trying to pierce your heart with a Morgul knife that remains in the wound. If they had succeeded, they would have become like they are, only weaker and under their command." TFotR, "Many Meetings," p. 216.

Why "against hope"? In all the previous cases a Morgul wound had been lethal and it only took a few days to overcome a strong man.

"Hoping against hope" is an old English saying, meaning, "hoping all wiill turn out well despite the distinct possibility that it will not," as in this case. See Alcuin's post for another case, which unfortunately Elrond was not around to treat. As we surgeons say, surgery is the best treatment because it seperates the patient from the disese.

[CAB]

Originally Posted by Alcuin

Killing immediately with a Morgul-knife is wasting the weapon. Wound, don’t kill is the rule.

Originally Posted by Attalus

Easy. We have Gandalf's testimony that "They was trying to pierce your heart with a Morgul knife that remains in the wound. If they had succeeded, they would have become like they are, only weaker and under their command." TFotR, "Many Meetings," p. 216.

Gordis has argued before that if a Morgul-knife is stabbed into the heart, then the victim becomes a wraith immediately. I don't remember her logic, but I think I can take a guess at it. The Witch King clearly intended, from the start, to use the Morgul-blade on Frodo at Weathertop. To intend to do so, knowing that the effects would take days, in the middle of the wilderness, with Frodo's companions at hand, with Gandalf in the neighborhood, etc., etc.,... anyway this would be pointless and stupid. It makes much more sense if he was intending to make Frodo a wraith on the spot. I think this is more or less Gordis's line of thought (if not, my apologies, Gordis).

Originally Posted by Alcuin

No offense intended, and none taken, I hope.

Not at all. My posts just aren't as clear as I would like. What really kills me is that we have several members on this site for whom English is a second (or third, etc.) language, yet they are able to use it better than I (a native speaker) do. Very annoying.

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by CAB

Gordis has argued before that if a Morgul-knife is stabbed into the heart, then the victim becomes a wraith immediately. I don't remember her logic, but I think I can take a guess at it. The Witch King clearly intended, from the start, to use the Morgul-blade on Frodo at Weathertop. To intend to do so, knowing that the effects would take days, in the middle of the wilderness, with Frodo's companions at hand, with Gandalf in the neighborhood, etc., etc.,... anyway this would be pointless and stupid. It makes much more sense if he was intending to make Frodo a wraith on the spot. I think this is more or less Gordis's line of thought (if not, my apologies, Gordis).

Nay, CAB - I am afraid I was not clear enough.
I believe that if a Morgul-kinfe is stabbed right through the heart the victim is KILLED immediately: the body becomes useless and the soul departs to Mandos. There will be no wraith left.

A direct hit in the heart by a pointed metal object leads to immediate death.

Yet, it is not the objective - the objective is to turn the victim into a wraith - and that doesn't seem to be an instant event, but a slow process. Likely the splinter has to be inserted somewhere near the heart and travel to it on its own, piercing it gently, like a surgical needle, and inserting the poison and evil spells into the blood flow.
That must be the meaning of :"They was trying to pierce your heart with a Morgul knife that remains in the wound."

Wound, not Kill, as Alcuin says.

Originally Posted by Attalus

This may or not be true, but I would be happier with some examples of courage in the Nazgul.

Please:

Then so utterly was Angmar defeated that not a man nor an orc of that realm remained west of the Mountains.
'But it is said that when all was lost suddenly the Witch-king himself appeared, black-robed and black-masked upon a black horse. Fear fell upon all who beheld him; but he singled out the Captain of Gondor for the fullness of his hatred, and with a terrible cry he rode straight upon him. Eärnur would have withstood him; but his horse could not endure that onset, and it swerved and bore him far away before he could master it.
'Then the Witch-king laughed, and none that heard it ever forgot the horror of that cry.

Note, Earnur was the best fighter in Gondor:

Eärnur [...]was a man of strong body and hot mood; but he would take no wife, for his only pleasure was in fighting, or in the exercise of arms. His prowess was such that none in Gondor could stand against him in those weapon-sports in which he delighted, seeming rather a champion than a captain or king

That is from the Appendices, as for LOTR text you remember the WK was ready to take on Gandalf at the Gate, he killed Theoden and dispersed the Rohirrim. In both cases he didn't ask another nazgul to help him.

[CAB]

Originally Posted by Gordis

Nay, CAB - I am afraid I was not clear enough.
I believe that if a Morgul-kinfe is stabbed right through the heart the victim is KILLED immediately: the body becomes useless and the soul departs to Mandos. There will be no wraith left.

A direct hit in the heart by a pointed metal object leads to immediate death.

Yet, it is not the objective - the objective is to turn the victim into a wraith - and that doesn't seem to be an instant event, but a slow process. Likely the splinter has to be inserted somewhere near the heart and travel to it on its own, piercing it gently, like a surgical needle, and inserting the poison and evil spells into the blood flow.
That must be the meaning of :"They was trying to pierce your heart with a Morgul knife that remains in the wound."

Wound, not Kill, as Alcuin says.

Hmm…I guess I am misremembering things. How then do you explain the Witch King's intent to use the Morgul-blade immediately, before dealing with Frodo's companions?

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by CAB

Hmm…I guess I am misremembering things. How then do you explain the Witch King's intent to use the Morgul-blade immediately, before dealing with Frodo's companions?

Companions? Perhaps they intended to kill them all, but were foiled by sight of Barrow-blades and torches. Anyway, the companions would be unable to help the victim. They may kill him though... but then the Ring will get the new, even less experienced owner.

I guess the nazgul were worried that the experienced Ringbearer claims the Ring and starts to give orders. Then the matter would come to a standstill, as described in #246, and Sauron's direct intervention would be needed. That's why they came straight for Frodo ignoring the others.

Note, CAB, I do think that the WK had missed when hitting Frodo's shoulder instead of his chest. But still I don't think he wanted to hit directly the heart.

[The Dread Pirate Roberts]

On your last point, Gordis, I think that's a minor distinction anyway. Had WiKi missed in the other direction and killed Frodo by mistake, I don't think he'd have been all that heartbroken, even though the goal was more likely capture. That he missed and struck only the shoulder gave Frodo just enough time, barely, to reach Rivendell and its Elvish surgeons.

[Attalus]

Originally Posted by Gordis

A direct hit in the heart by a pointed metal object leads to immediate death.

Um, not true, unless the missle or blade disrupts the Purkinje system. If untreated, a large enough heart wound to cause leakage, but not enough to disrupt its motions, causes death by hemopericardium, the collection of blood in the unexpandable sac that surround the heart and not allowing blood to enter the heart.. I, myself, have treated stab wounds to the heart that were nonfatal by draining the pericardium, and stuck large-bore needles into the heart to inject epinephrine without killing the patient. I have assisted in two surgeries where missle weapons were removed from the heart, and both patients lived. I think that was the object of the breakable tip of the Morgul-knife, to take control of the individual. Can't you take Gandalf's word for it? Granted, he is not infallible, but I suspect his knowlege, here is based on direct observation.

[Nautipus]

Originally Posted by Attalus

As we surgeons say, surgery is the best treatment because it seperates the patient from the disese.

One could start a thread based on that comment. (juuust a joke. everybody stay calm.)

[Attalus]

Originally Posted by Nautipus

One could start a thread based on that comment. (juuust a joke. everybody stay calm.)

We also say "Cold steel is the best deal."

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by Attalus

Um, not true, unless the missle or blade disrupts the Purkinje system. If untreated, a large enough heart wound to cause leakage, but not enough to disrupt its motions, causes death by hemopericardium, the collection of blood in the unexpandable sac that surround the heart and not allowing blood to enter the heart..

Well, thanks, I will take your word for that.

I, myself, have treated stab wounds to the heart that were nonfatal by draining the pericardium, and stuck large-bore needles into the heart to inject epinephrine without killing the patient. I have assisted in two surgeries where missle weapons were removed from the heart, and both patients lived.

But could something like that be done in medieval times or even say in 19th century? Just curious....

[Attalus]

Originally Posted by Gordis

But could something like that be done in medieval times or even say in 19th century? Just curious....

Certainly in the late nineteenth century. Medievally, no, though Elrond's Operation would not have been done in the Middle Ages, either.

[Gordis]

Thanks, it is very interesting.