Wraiths Before the Ring

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by Galin

But on the other hand, what do you think of this tinkering specifically -- if it all works that is, and gets us to the goal in Appendix B?

Too much? acceptable? considering too that details don't have to be trodden on with respect to Isilmo (even if the detail is invented).

I think it is not "too much" and very interesting - you will try to reach the timeline in TY without any wraiths and I will do the same work introducing a helpful Nazgul Ring in there.
Every theory will have its own list of problems, no doubt.
We shall see which history looks better and which one Tolkien might have intended (arguably).
Up until now, I was not aware that your (ringless) approach to the problem was even feasible.

[Galin]

Originally Posted by Gordis

That is, as you say, not good. Why would the good Queen Telperien die so early? It would be unprecedented at the time - an would need some explanation... like her keeping nine black cats and one white, you know But seriously my advice is to try to avoid it. Leave her with at least 400 years life span, please.

OK, but how to have Tar-M take the throne before 1700? In LE he takes the throne when Tar-T dies (so I also did not have her live longer than her rule). If we adjust her birth this impacts other dates of course.

Having 100 years between siblings may be OK, curious but possible. Tar-M having Tar-C (his first child and Heir) at 233 is much worse, because it shows Tar-M's irresponsibility towards his line. But, according to you (and LE), Tar-M was a good king.

But what if he wanted to have a child earlier, but couldn't?

1. It would take quite some time for young Minastir to build his tower and became famous in spending all his time in it - doesn't seem like an activity fit for a very young man.

Well young by N. standards, but yet still 80. And I think other reasons for this name can be possible too, in any case.

One bigger problem is this entry in TY -LOTR: According to your dating it would be during the reign of Minastir, yet we know that it were the Kings after him who became greedy of wealth and desired domination.

Hmmm, I'll think on this.

The third problem is the name of Tar-Ciryatan, the Shipbuilder. What ships did he build and when? One great ship-building was recorded in the given time period, when the Armada for ME was being prepared in 1694-1700. In LE, Ciryatan was 60-66 years old at this time and it stands to reason that he was known to build these ships (maybe this task was assigned to the Heir). But later an, what ships were there to build? After the War Numenor had more ships it needed in times of peace as not a single one would have been lost to the sea (see Akallabeth). In your timeline, Galin, the connection between Ciryatan (b.1869) and the 1700 Armada would become impossible.

I'll try to come up with something on the name.

4. Ciryatan would be only 60 when he dethrones his father forcefully. Isn't it a bit young?

I thought I had him at age 161 when he took the throne. No?

Still you have a big problem. If Isilmo is so much younger than his sister, then he must considerably outlive her. The scepter is his by right.* Why doesn't he become the next King? He couldn't refuse** (and actually the only excuse for a male would be old age), he must be granted one honorary year of rule, as Vardamir Nolimon. Isilmo was not. Why?

I made him considerably younger yes, but Tolkien himself made him younger and didn't answer that one. Anyway, again exactly the kind of thing I'm looking for. Challenge my (for now) draft scheme to make it better...

... but don't be shy regarding solutions to the challenges too

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by Galin

OK, but how to have Tar-M take the throne before 1700? In LE he takes the throne when Tar-T dies (so I also did not have her live longer than her rule). If we adjust her birth this impacts other dates of course.

I have solved it this way, keeping the life spans intact:

Anarion 973- 1384 - born thirty years earlier than in LE. It seems to fit one of the versions of A&E in UT.
Surion 1134-1534 - forty years earlier than in LE
Telperien 1280-1691-forty years earlier than in LE

I don't see any problems arising from that shift - and it keeps the history in LE all but intact.

But what if he wanted to have a child earlier, but couldn't?

As funny as it seems, having problems of this kind seems very Un-Numenorean. Infertility, infant death - seems there was nothing of this kind in the blissful Elenna.

Well young by N. standards, but yet still 80. And I think other reasons for this name can be possible too, in any case.

It is so well explained in LE why his name was given...Pity to discard that

I thought I had him at age 161 when he took the throne. No?

Sorry, my bad.

I made him considerably younger yes, but Tolkien himself made him younger and didn't answer that one.

Actually if there was the usual 11 years difference between siblings, and Telperien lived to 411, while Isilmo lived to 399 or 400, he would die before Telperien. I think that is the answer to the riddle in LE.

but don't be shy regarding solutions to the challenges too

I am doing my best

[Alcuin]

Originally Posted by Galin

OK, but how to have Tar-M take the throne before 1700? In LE he takes the throne when Tar-T dies (so I also did not have her live longer than her rule). If we adjust her birth this impacts other dates of course.

I’m sorry, but Entmoot is like an addiction right now. I need to stop, but I’m still reading.

Tar-Minastir almost certainly acted as co-regent with his aunt, Tar-Telperiën, during the final years of her reign. He was young, probably quite vigorous, and almost certainly wanted the assignment to go deal with “the Gil-galad problem.� He was in charge of organizing, administering, and leading the Númenórean force to Middle-earth. It was to that point in Númenórean history the single largest undertaking the Dúnedain had ever attempted, something akin to the invasion of Normandy, but from bases across the Atlantic Ocean.

In Gondor, there is an echo of this. Minalcar, later Rómendacil II, served as Karma-kundo, or regent, first for his uncle and then his father. And in “The Line of Elros,� Tolkien says that beginning with Tar-Atanamir, kings sat on the throne until they fell into dotage (senility) and finally died, but that their heirs or advisors in fact ruled in the name of the king and exercised royal authority. Besides setting the legal precedent for Minalcar Rómendacil II to act as regent, this was probably a precedent already set by Tar-Telperiën and Tar-Minastir for purposes of state in order that Númenor could go to war alongside its ancient allies in Lindon. (And it may well be that Glorfindel came over from Eldamar and went with them; but that’s another thread, and outside what I can discuss today.)

Now, what did little Númenórean children learn in school beginning in the eighteenth century of the Second Age? That Tar-Telperiën sent the fleet to Númenor? Or that Tar-Minastir did?

There’s a logical solution. It fits the texts, it changes nothing that has been published, it makes sense, and it is, I think, the simplest solution. And it ties up all the loose ends on this issue, leaving no mess and no residue to clean.

(Will someone please stop me from posting… I’m going to have to join EPA – Entmoot Posters Anonymous.)

[Gordis]

The precedent for regentship was set long before Atanamir or Telperien - in Tar-Aldarion's times:

There was a stir in Númenor when Tar-Aldarion determined to return to Middle-earth in 883 or 884, for no King had ever before left the Isle, and the Council had no precedent. It seems that Meneldur was offered but refused the regency, and that Hallatan of Hyarastorni became regent, either appointed by the Council or by Tar-Aldarion himself.-Aldarion and Erendis

Telperien, if she died in 1731 would still be hale and sound in 1694-1700, vigorous and not in dotage. Why would she need a regent? She liked to rule - if not she would have resigned the sceptre to her brother.

And if the War happened during her reign, than the children would read in text-books "Tar-Telperien sent fleet to ME", not "Tar-Minastir sent". The King/Queen sends the Fleet and nobody cares who had actually slaved to build this fleet - in all likelihood it was Ciryatan the Heir. So, I disagree with this solution.

[Galin]

Originally Posted by Gordis

I have solved it this way, keeping the life spans intact:

Anarion 973- 1384 - born thirty years earlier than in LE. It seems to fit one of the versions of A&E in UT.
Surion 1134-1534 - forty years earlier than in LE
Telperien 1280-1691-forty years earlier than in LE

I don't see any problems arising from that shift - and it keeps the history in LE all but intact.

Hmmm, and are you also adjusting for my already late birth with Isilmo?

As funny as it seems, having problems of this kind seems very Un-Numenorean. Infertility, infant death - seems there was nothing of this kind in the blissful Elenna.

I was thinking infertility problems (obviously solved). True I can't think why, but it would arguably mix things up a bit, if possible.

It is so well explained in LE why his name was given...Pity to discard that

How about same reason as in LE, but just emphasize why it is Minastir and not a name related to the Middle-earth event (important though it is). Generally speaking I'm very interested in Tolkien's nomenclature, and his creativity here is amazing, not unexpectedly.

Actually if there was the usual 11 years difference between siblings, and Telperien lived to 411, while Isilmo lived to 399 or 400, he would die before Telperien. I think that is the answer to the riddle in LE.

Maybe. In any case if people will accept not knowing from JRRT himself, I thought Isilmo was a good target for manipulation, without necessarily explaining the details.

Ah, good to see Alcuin in the mix!

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by Galin

Hmmm, and are you also adjusting for my already late birth with Isilmo?

No, I wasn't. You see, it is difficult to do without having your table before me.
If Isilmo is also 40 years older than you planned he would have Tar-M at 238 not 198? Am I correct?

I was thinking infertility problems (obviously solved). True I can't think why, but it would arguably mix things up a bit, if possible.

Oh, well... It is just as I thought: instead of introducing a Ring, you would need to introduce some quite unlikely factors.
But no pun intended, seriously.

How about same reason as in LE, but just emphasize why it is Minastir and not a name related to the Middle-earth event (important though it is). Generally speaking I'm very interested in Tolkien's nomenclature, and his creativity here is amazing, not unexpectedly.

Tar-M, if he took the scepter BEFORE the war, couldn't have had a name related to the War or the Fleet. Here all is perfectly OK. Perhaps in 1694 he had just completed building his silly Tower aimed to gaze towards the boring West?

Maybe. In any case if people will accept not knowing from JRRT himself, I thought Isilmo was a good target for manipulation, without necessarily explaining the details.

My advice is: kill him early, before Telperien dies. Make him fall from his horse and break his neck, or drown, or get a lance in the eye during a tournament.
No Isilmo at Telperien's death, no problem.

[Galin]

Originally Posted by Gordis

No, I wasn't. You see, it is difficult to do without having your table before me. If Isilmo is also 40 years older than you planned he would have Tar-M at 238 not 198? Am I correct?

This is why I don't want to move the birth date of Tar-S. In my scheme Tar-S has Isilmo at age 246 and Isilmo has Tar-M at age 198. Then Tar-M has the 'other' late birth. I thought it best to split this up. If we keep the 100 years age gap with your new date, then Isilmo is born in 1380, and yes I think he would then have to have Tar-M at age 238 to get us (back) to my b. date for Tar-M (1618). But then we have three births after age 200 'in a row': Tar-S has Isilmo at age 246 (as in my scheme), and Isilmo now is 238, exactly the age I have Tar-M having Tar-C.

If we add 20 years to Tar-T's life (according to my dates) she could be 398 at her death. By my math she's then 256 when she takes the throne. Tar-S is 226 when he has Isilmo (better than my earlier 246!) but Isilmo is now 218 when he has his son, instead of 198 years old. This still means three births over 200, lessening the age of Tar-S but adding to Isilmo. But maybe we keep Isilmo at 198, and Tar-M is now b. 1598, and is thus 100 in 1698 when he takes the throne (instead of 80). By keeping Tar-T's death date at 1698 but having her born in 1300 (not 1320), this lessens her rule by 20 years. Isilmo is born in 1400 (same 100 year gap), but again if he stays 198 then Tar-M is born 20 years earlier in 1598 -- if we keep his ruling years the same we make him 20 years older at his death, thus 423 (more 'like' Elros in this category, but still well enough away from 500), and also 20 years older (258) when he has Tar-C, if Tar-C's birth is still 1856.

This gives us an older Tar-Telperien, and Tar-Ciryatan is now the latest birth (born to Tar-M when he was 258, instead of the former latest birth being Tar-S having his son at 246).

Or that's what I think I did

I did this very quickly so I'll have to check. I'll be surprised if I didn't screw something up somewhere.

Oh, well... It is just as I thought: instead of introducing a Ring, you would need to introduce some quite unlikely factors.

Why is an infertility problem (in any case he did have a son of course) quite unlikely? Is there any textual evidence, especially Tolkien published, that gets in the way (again I haven't refreshed my memory yet on the related texts)?

We could have an infant, or youth, accidentally slain too. I especially don't think a reader would question Tolkien if he had incorporated an accident, for example.

Tar-M, if he took the scepter BEFORE the war, couldn't have had a name related to the War or the Fleet. Here all is perfectly OK. Perhaps in 1694he had just completed building his silly Tower aimed to gaze towards the boring West?

I agree, but you had it on your problem list because Tar-M (in my scheme) was 80 when he took the sceptre, so I just responded there.

I'm not sure he needs to do both (build the tower and spend 'great part of his days') before 1700 to have acquired this name, but even if so it's not very problematic in my opinion, as 80 years is only relatively short for mortals, as I say. Also, if the new version works, he would be 100 in 1698.

My advice is: kill him early, before Telperien dies. Make him fall from his horse and break his neck, or drown, or get a lance in the eye during a tournament. No Isilmo at Telperien's death, no problem.

Aha, so accidents can happen

By the way, is Tar-Ciryatan said to mean 'ship builder' in anything published by Tolkien himself (in know that's the meaning in Akallabeth at least)?

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

All right, people. I certainly don't want to intrude your rather interesting debate (if nothing more), it's interesting to read all these theories and one learns many things. However, at the risk of interrupting your arguing over living and dying kings and sons and relatives, I would like to raise opposing voice here.

There is one problem with the last two and half pages of your posting, if not more, and that is, it all stands on one assumption, which is far from being verified. It is actually far from being verified. And it is - whoever said that there was actually any Nazgul present on Númenor?

It is just a pure speculation. I have to agree that Alcuin's theory as presented (even though I didn't have the time to read it all properly, I have just skimmed through it) is most impressive (and even dangerously convincing, as I have read it), however, I am not letting myself to be convinced so easily. Especially now seeing that everybody accepted it so easily.

Why should the darkening of Númenor be caused by the presence of one or more Nazgul on the island itself? By some of their dark plotting, intentional or unintentional, just by the dark power of some Rings? Yes, I agree, it was quite sudden. However, we hear the reasons - Sauron was rising again, darkness was spreading in Middle-Earth. And, most of all, Númenoreans are just Men like anybody else. It is a general rule in Tolkien's world, in Arda Marred, that everything goes from good to bad, eventually, if there is no good outside intervention. Especially with Men. Around the time of Tar-Atanamir, it's been for far too long since some really ground-shaking event happened in M-E. It was about time that something went wrong.

When I just think of the "New Shadow" - the sequel to LotR Tolkien was planning - it took really just a short while before something went wrong in the reestablished Kingdom.

I deem that the "shadow upon Númenor" is explainable even without any inner plots involving people possessing the Rings of Power. In LotR, Appendix A, we read:

Moreover, after Minastir the Kings became greedy of wealth and power. At first the Númenoreans had come to Middle-earth as teachers and friends of lesser Men afflicted by Sauron; but now their havens became fortresses, holding wide coast-tends in subjection. Atanamir and his successors levied heavy tribute, and the ships of the Númenoreans returned laden with spoil.

Simple greed, nothing more than that. Is it the first time we have seen such things happening? Certainly not. The Númenoreans have been secluded on their island for too long, suddenly, rich lands opened to them. With Minastir's fleet, they were the saviors, and they came and interacted with the people of Middle-Earth, but at some point, it just was not enough. Somebody started to think about the profit that could be gained, indeed, in likeness to Melkor with the primal Arda, the Númenoreans coveted for these beautiful lands, wishing to take them for their own.

The Númenoreans began to establish their colonies in Middle-Earth "c. 1800" and that's also the time when shadow falls on Númenor, the datation is so vague that it's even annoying. However, it is clear that the three Númenoreans among the Nazgul had to be given the Rings sometime during the era since this to 2251. In 2251, the Nazgul first appear (as wraiths already). That means they were in Sauron's service already, likely in Mordor, as having a weird transparent guy as your neighbour will be certainly strange.

But whereas "shadow descended upon Númenor", it was still not common for the Númenoreans to be particularly wicked, and a person with a Ring of Power would make a great fuss. Who could be made a Ringwraith?

1. Somebody who met Sauron (or his emissary, in the worst case)
2. Therefore, somebody who has been to Middle-Earth, and not just remained on Númenor
3. That somebody had to be important enough to bring Sauron's attention.

More than a visiting nobleman from Númenor (let alone a heir of the throne!), I would bet on some "governor" of some coastal city. Somebody who caught Sauron's eye. Either a very capable governor, or a "Pizarro" who did very well in exploiting the "wild" Men of Middle-Earth. Perhaps he gave a Ring even to some brave explorer (of noble family, not unlike Aldarion).

I find it unlikely that Sauron would let such a person simply go back to Númenor. Of course it is not about "letting", he had no total command over them until they became Ringwraiths. But still, he would probably choose somebody who remained in Middle-Earth. (Or even better, some promising noble who was willing to join him rightaway - even that might have happened, if the person was corruptible enough.)

Letting his "prey" leave too far, beyond his reach, would be risky for Sauron. I don't think Sauron had already such daring plans so that he would plant a seed of evil in the very center of the Númenorean empire by letting a person with a Ring roam free there and Sauron would just "see what happens". That would be too risky. The Ring would be too far from him, and too close to the West. Sauron could not be sure what would happen if some wise Númenorean scholars or visiting Elves from the West by chance spotted something weird and the guy was revealed. Also, he could not say if the Ring's power would not wane or something, being so far in the West. Most of all, what would happen, once the person started to "fade"? The Dark Lord had to be sure that he can call the newly forming Nazgul to him ASAP. He wanted servants. And that's another point of mine.

Sauron needed to call the Ringwraith to himself once they became Ringwraith, and my opinion also is that he might have hoped to achieve something, let's say, political by picking these special individuals. At least some of them were "kings... of old" (Sil), it sounds likely that some of them were rulers - let's say, in the case of the non-Númenorean ones, of some tribe, or even realm? Like, a leader of the Easterling tribe XY becoming a Ringwraith, now that's a good move - all of a sudden, Sauron can count with the whole tribe being on his side. I find it likely that he might have done something similar with the Númenorean governors in Middle-Earth. Also,

Originally Posted by Akallabeth

But for a long time [Sauron] did not dare to challenge the Lords of the Sea, and he withdrew from the coasts.
Yet Sauron was ever guileful, and it is said that among those whom he ensnared with the Nine Rings three were great lords of Númenorean race. And when the Úlairi arose that were the Ring-wraiths, his servants, and the strength of his terror and mastery over Men had grown exceedingly great, he began to assail the strong places of the Númenoreans upon the shores of the sea.

To me, putting this information so close to each other could point to that the Nazgul had something to do with this "capturing the shore" move (I mean, something more important - not just the fact that they were leading Sauron's armies into battle). Be it exploiting the former Númenorean coast-dwellers' knowledge of the coastal fortresses, or be it attempts to seize power in the coastal cities by the Wraith-governors' rebellions, or using his friend Ar-Pizarro to help defeat Númenorean navy...

Anyway, my point is - I do not see much sense in having the bearers of the Nine, even as long as they were still alive, leave for Númenor. I find it far more likely that they would be the ones being and staying in Middle-Earth. I am not saying they could not have been high-ranking Númenorean nobles, even with some bits of the royal blood, if that were possible, but they would be made the coastal governors or representatives, "prefects", rulers of "colonies". That goes well with the idea of "three great lords of Númenorean race".

P.S. I apologise for the... length of my post, but I think most of you already have had some experience with that

[Galin]

Legate of Amon Lanc good to see you here by the way!

My little 'project' has no wraiths of course, but I do mean to think more about the TY reference c. 1800 (the shadow falls on N.), since Gordis brought it up.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Galin

Legate of Amon Lanc good to see you here by the way!

My little 'project' has no wraiths of course, but I do mean to think more about the TY reference c. 1800 (the Shadow falls on N.), since Gordis brought it up

Yep, I'm also glad to see you around, although I can't promise how much I'll be around

I was simply giving some of my opinions on the original topic of this thread and something I was not quite comfortable with about the way it was handled Well, like I said, not that I'd wish to interrupt the ongoing debate

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by Galin

If we add 20 years to Tar-T's life (according to my dates) she could be 398 at her death. By my math she's then 256 when she takes the throne. Tar-S is 226 when he has Isilmo (better than my earlier 246!) but Isilmo is now 218 when he has his son, instead of 198 years old. This still means three births over 200, lessening the age of Tar-S but adding to Isilmo. But maybe we keep Isilmo at 198, and Tar-M is now b. 1598, and is thus 100 in 1698 when he takes the throne (instead of 80). By keeping Tar-T's death date at 1698 but having her born in 1300 (not 1320), this lessens her rule by 20 years. Isilmo is born in 1400 (same 100 year gap), but again if he stays 198 then Tar-M is born 20 years earlier in 1598 -- if we keep his ruling years the same we make him 20 years older at his death, thus 423 (more 'like' Elros in this category, but still well enough away from 500), and also 20 years older (258) when he has Tar-C, if Tar-C's birth is still 1856.

This seems Ok, except having Tar-M live to 423. In LE Tar-Atanamir refuses to lay down his life, yet he lives only to 421, and his last years are somewhat terrible. Hey, it was Tar-A "the Unwilling", not Tar-M.

Why is an infertility problem (in any case he did have a son of course) quite unlikely? Is there any textual evidence, especially Tolkien published, that gets in the way (again I haven't refreshed my memory yet on the related texts)?

Well there were no childless couples in the Line of Elros, barring Miriel-Pharazon, but Miriel married quite old.
And we know that:

This was the beginning of that people that in the Grey-elven speech are called the Dúnedain: the Númenóreans, Kings among Men. But they did not thus escape from the doom of death that Ilúvatar had set upon all Mankind, and they were mortal still, though their years were long, and they knew no sickness, ere the shadow fell upon them. Therefore they grew wise and glorious, and in all things more like to the Firstborn than any other of the kindreds of Men; and they were tall, taller than the tallest of the sons of Middle-earth; and the light of their eyes was like the bright stars. But their numbers increased only slowly in the land, for though daughters and sons were born to them, fairer than their fathers, yet their children were few.Akallabeth

We could have an infant, or youth, accidentally slain too. I especially don't think a reader would question Tolkien if he had incorporated an accident, for example.

I think accidents are always possible, if you keep them to a minimum.

I agree, but you had it on your problem list because Tar-M (in my scheme) was 80 when he took the sceptre, so I just responded there.
I'm not sure he needs to do both (build the tower and spend 'great part of his days') before 1700 to have acquired this name, but even if so it's not very problematic in my opinion, as 80 years is only relatively short for mortals, as I say. Also, if the new version works, he would be 100 in 1698.

Most likely Telperien was ready to leave the scepter to Isilmo, in case he was 100 years younger than she, but then Isilmo died by accident and Minastir got the scepter at a much younger age than normal.

But I have found this at tuckborough.net/numenoreans.html

Names & Etymology:
The name Minastir means "tower watcher" in Quenya from minas meaning "tower" and tir meaning "watch." He was so named because he gazed westward from the tower he built on Oromet. The prefix Tar means "high" and was used by the Kings and Queens of Numenor.

Makes sense: Palan-tir also has the "watch, look" part. So Minastir means not "builder of the tower", but "watcher from the tower".

By the way, is Tar-Ciryatan said to mean 'ship builder' in anything published by Tolkien himself (in know that's the meaning in Akallabeth at least)?

Acallabeth, yes, LE, yes. LOTR gives no translation.
From tuckborough: The name Ciryatan means "ship builder" in Quenya from cirya meaning "ship" and tan meaning "make, fashion." He was called the Shipbuilder.

[Gordis]

Greetings, Legate, nice to see you here!

I will reply a bit later - sorry, no time right now.

[Galin]

Originally Posted by Gordis

This seems Ok, except having Tar-M live to 423. In LE Tar-Atanamir refuses to lay down his life, yet he lives only to 421, and his last years are somewhat terrible. Hey, it was Tar-A "the Unwilling", not Tar-M.

Still based on the new numbers for Tar-T above, I adjusted Tar-M down to age 403 (and have Tar-A living to age 421). It might work out better here actually, though I will have to also adjust a bit for the rulers that follow Tar-Atanamir, which I think can be done.

I think accidents are always possible, if you keep them to a minimum.

I think we can do that

Concerning Isilmo: we know he was younger than Tar-T according to Tolkien but we don't know why he seemingly did not rule at any point. I made him younger and didn't explain this as well. A convenient stance I know! Granted, my specific date, since he is notably younger, more strongly begs the question.

Makes sense: Palan-tir also has the "watch, look" part. So Minastir means not "builder of the tower", but "watcher from the tower".

Yes I figured that it didn't mean Tower-builder.

Acallabeth, yes, LE, yes. LOTR gives no translation.
From tuckborough: The name Ciryatan means "ship builder" in Quenya from cirya meaning "ship" and tan meaning "make, fashion." He was called the Shipbuilder.

Hmmm, if it's not translated in something published by Tolkien I might have an alternate meaning for Ciryatan (S. CÃ*rdan 'Ship-maker'). Not an alternate form, as that's published, just a different meaning. Like Tolkien's Celeborn 'Silver-tree' (for the tree), and Celeborn 'Silver-tall' for the person, for instance.

I'm still thinking of other reasons for this name. With respect to the meaning, my guess is that you would rather not alter it, and I know it goes against the idea that we try to keep the written history in. I'm not sure yet how well it will work anyway.

I'll try it for fun at least

By the way, I may also have to attend to other things soon. I'll try to get back to this if and when I can though.

[Galin]

Getting back to the earlier issues I said I would revisit.

Originally Posted by Gordis

This seems Ok, except having Tar-M live to 423. In LE Tar-Atanamir refuses to lay down his life, yet he lives only to 421, and his last years are somewhat terrible. Hey, it was Tar-A "the Unwilling", not Tar-M.

Still based on the new numbers for Tar-T above, I adjusted Tar-M down to age 403 (and have Tar-A living to age 421). It might work out better here actually, though I will have to also adjust a bit for the rulers that follow Tar-Atanamir, which I think can be done.

One bigger problem is this entry in TY -LOTR: C 1800. From about this time onward the Númenoreans begin to establish dominions on the coasts. The shadow falls on Númenor. (TY) According to your dating it would be during the reign of Minastir, yet we know that it were the Kings after him who became greedy of wealth and desired domination.

According to Appendix A: 'The first sign of the shadow that was to fall upon them appeared in the days of Tar-Minastir, the eleventh King.' It is said in Appendix A that after Minastir the Kings became greedy, and that though at first the Numenoreans had come to Middle-earth as teachers and friends 'but now their havens became fortresses'. Though he is generally a good king, Minastir also envied the Elves, and longing for the life of the Eldar is the first sign.

3. The third problem is the name of Tar-Ciryatan, the Shipbuilder. What ships did he build and when? One great ship-building was recorded in the given time period, when the Armada for ME was being prepared in 1694-1700. In LE, Ciryatan was 60-66 years old at this time and it stands to reason that he was known to build these ships (maybe this task was assigned to the Heir). But later an, what ships were there to build? After the War Numenor had more ships it needed in times of peace as not a single one would have been lost to the sea (see Akallabeth). In your timeline, Galin, the connection between Ciryatan (b.1869) and the 1700 Armada would become impossible.

Right but the connection you refer to is not specifically stated (though I agree the idea seems certainly possible by LE dating). In LE it is written of Ciryatan: 'He was a mighty King, but greedy of wealth; he built a great fleet of royal ships, and his servants brought back great store of metals and gems, and oppressed the men of Middle-earth.'

Ciryatan could have built a more opulent fleet (being greedy of wealth and wanting to display it) for himself and those doing his purposes in Middle-earth, whether the new ships were truly necessary or not. Perhaps even the simple fact that the vessels involved in 1700 were not made under his guidance (if so) was enough reason for him, and if he got personally involved with the wrights in the design or construction of his ships, this could have helped him earn this name.

I note that it was written of Ar-Pharazon (Akallabeth) : '... and many ships of war he built'. He then comes to Middle-earth, takes Sauron to Numenor, yet later it's noted of the Numenoreans 'and they built even greater ships'. Generally speaking ship building had begun long before Minastir of course, including vessels large enough to visit Middle-earth. And from Aldarion and Erendis: 'The ships of the Numenoreans became even larger and of greater draught in those days, until they could make far voyages, carrying many men and great cargoes...' Aldarion built some notable vessels, but ship building continued of course.

In short, one answer could simply be that Ciryatan built ships despite the fleet used in 1700.

[Gordis]

Sorry for the delay, Galin and Legate - I've had a very difficult week at work. Also it tends to become worse, I will hardly post more till the end of March.

Originally Posted by Galin

Getting back to the earlier issues I said I would revisit.
Still based on the new numbers for Tar-T above, I adjusted Tar-M down to age 403 (and have Tar-A living to age 421). It might work out better here actually, though I will have to also adjust a bit for the rulers that follow Tar-Atanamir, which I think can be done.

It seems much better.

According to Appendix A: 'The first sign of the shadow that was to fall upon them appeared in the days of Tar-Minastir, the eleventh King.' It is said in Appendix A that after Minastir the Kings became greedy, and that though at first the Numenoreans had come to Middle-earth as teachers and friends 'but now their havens became fortresses'. Though he is generally a good king, Minastir also envied the Elves, and longing for the life of the Eldar is the first sign.

As it stands in LE, it could be attributed to Ciryatan's doings while he was still the Heir. He made many voyages to ME before taking the scepter, while his father sat in his stupid tower doing nothing.

Ciryatan could have built a more opulent fleet (being greedy of wealth and wanting to display it) for himself and those doing his purposes in Middle-earth, whether the new ships were truly necessary or not. Perhaps even the simple fact that the vessels involved in 1700 were not made under his guidance (if so) was enough reason for him, and if he got personally involved with the wrights in the design or construction of his ships, this could have helped him earn this name.

It is certainly possible (though I personally prefer to link Ciryatan with the Armada )

I note that it was written of Ar-Pharazon (Akallabeth) : '... and many ships of war he built'. He then comes to Middle-earth, takes Sauron to Numenor, yet later it's noted of the Numenoreans 'and they built even greater ships'.

We had another thread about ships here and IIRC there was an idea that the new fleet designed to go West (unlike the one sent against Sauron) was all composed of galleys with oars as Pharazon couldn't hope for favorable winds while going against the Valar. Thus the necessity to build new ships.

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by Legate

There is one problem with the last two and half pages of your posting, if not more, and that is, it all stands on one assumption, which is far from being verified. It is actually far from being verified. And it is - whoever said that there was actually any Nazgul present on Númenor?
Anyway, my point is - I do not see much sense in having the bearers of the Nine, even as long as they were still alive, leave for Númenor. I find it far more likely that they would be the ones being and staying in Middle-Earth. I am not saying they could not have been high-ranking Númenorean nobles, even with some bits of the royal blood, if that were possible, but they would be made the coastal governors or representatives, "prefects", rulers of "colonies". That goes well with the idea of "three great lords of Númenorean race".

And who said there were no Nazgul in Numenor?
But seriously, we do know that there were three Numenoreans among the Nazgul, and not just your average Numenoreans, bur "great lords". Now, before Umbar was made into a great fortress of Númenor in SA 2280 and Pelargir was built in 2350, there were no large Numenorean dominions in ME. There were only Vinylonde/Lond Daer and the precursor of Umbar. Would you expect any of these small settlements to be ruled by a "great lord?" More likely you would find there an old colonel serving his term in the colonies and very much looking forward to return home.
And if a "great lord" could be occasionally found in ME, of course he would never settle there for good, taking his wife, children and all, before some really strong fortresses would be built. Great lords have influential families, lots of relations and dependants, they would wish to show themselves at the court in Armenelos occasionally, they would wish to be buried in the family's crypt in Numenor.

Therefore Sauron had to be aware that to whatever great lord he may have given a ring, this ring would find its way to Numenor sooner or later. It is not as if the wielder of a ring becomes Sauron's slave immediately - it is a gradual process.( Gandalf: "sooner or later - later, if he is strong or well-meaning to begin with, but neither strength nor good purpose will last - sooner or later the dark power will devour him"). For a long time a future nazgul would lead a normal life and go to Numenor when he wished.

Originally Posted by Legate

Why should the darkening of Númenor be caused by the presence of one or more Nazgul on the island itself? By some of their dark plotting, intentional or unintentional, just by the dark power of some Rings? Yes, I agree, it was quite sudden. However, we hear the reasons - Sauron was rising again, darkness was spreading in Middle-Earth.

And the distribution of Rings was just a part of the rising darkness, wasn't it? "Rising darkness" is just a figure of speech.. The time coincidence shouldn't be glossed over, I think - the shadow suddenly fell on Numenor no sooner and no later than when Sauron likely distributed the Nine.

Originally Posted by Legate

And, most of all, Númenoreans are just Men like anybody else. It is a general rule in Tolkien's world, in Arda Marred, that everything goes from good to bad, eventually, if there is no good outside intervention. Especially with Men. Around the time of Tar-Atanamir, it's been for far too long since some really ground-shaking event happened in M-E. It was about time that something went wrong.
When I just think of the "New Shadow" - the sequel to LotR Tolkien was planning - it took really just a short while before something went wrong in the reestablished Kingdom.
I deem that the "shadow upon Númenor" is explainable even without any inner plots involving people possessing the Rings of Power. In LotR, Appendix A, we read:[…]
Simple greed, nothing more than that. Is it the first time we have seen such things happening? Certainly not. The Númenoreans have been secluded on their island for too long, suddenly, rich lands opened to them. With Minastir's fleet, they were the saviors, and they came and interacted with the people of Middle-Earth, but at some point, it just was not enough. Somebody started to think about the profit that could be gained, indeed, in likeness to Melkor with the primal Arda, the Númenoreans coveted for these beautiful lands, wishing to take them for their own.

That is certainly true. The rising greed and the lust for domination COULD have arisen quite naturally. If not, it needed but very little prompting. But there was more, like this:

It was Tar-Atanamir who first spoke openly against the Ban and declared that the life of the Eldar was his by right -App A.

A pretty strong statement, isn't it? Do you think it was just like that - out of the blue?

Originally Posted by Legate

The Númenoreans began to establish their colonies in Middle-Earth "c. 1800" and that's also the time when shadow falls on Númenor, the datation is so vague that it's even annoying. However, it is clear that the three Númenoreans among the Nazgul had to be given the Rings sometime during the era since this to 2251. In 2251, the Nazgul first appear (as wraiths already). That means they were in Sauron's service already, likely in Mordor, as having a weird transparent guy as your neighbour will be certainly strange.

Unfortunately we don't know that much, only this quote from TA: "2251 About this time the Nazgûl or Ringwraiths, slaves of the Nine Rings, first appear." To say that ALL of them - all nine - were already wraiths by 2251 is simple speculation. We can only be sure that some beings later identifiable as nazgul were first observed by "good guys" about 2251. We don't even know whether they were observed in ME or in Numenor.
But I agree, the rings were most likely distributed during the time-period you specify. Yet the possibility that some were distributed later: from 2251 to the time of the Downfall is not precluded, strictly speaking.

Originally Posted by Legate

But whereas "shadow descended upon Númenor", it was still not common for the Númenoreans to be particularly wicked, and a person with a Ring of Power would make a great fuss. Who could be made a Ringwraith?

1. Somebody who met Sauron (or his emissary, in the worst case)
2. Therefore, somebody who has been to Middle-Earth, and not just remained on Númenor
3. That somebody had to be important enough to bring Sauron's attention.

One of the three Numenorean Lords had to be approached by Sauron in disguise directly, I think, and it had to be in ME. Yet for two others there was no such necessity, as the first one was most likely bidden to transmit the Rings to his kin or superiors. Riches and tribute were flowing to Numenor from the colonies. Tat-Telemmaite, for instance, even got his name from his love for Moria-silver. I guess his predecessors also loved costly and beautiful things. What more fitting present than an Elven Ring could there be for a King from one of ME governors? It would have been foolish NOT to use such an opportunity.

Originally Posted by Legate

More than a visiting nobleman from Númenor (let alone a heir of the throne!), I would bet on some "governor" of some coastal city. Somebody who caught Sauron's eye. Either a very capable governor, or a "Pizarro" who did very well in exploiting the "wild" Men of Middle-Earth. Perhaps he gave a Ring even to some brave explorer (of noble family, not unlike Aldarion).

Yes, that describes the FIRST victim well enough.

Originally Posted by Legate

I find it unlikely that Sauron would let such a person simply go back to Númenor. Of course it is not about "letting", he had no total command over them until they became Ringwraiths. But still, he would probably choose somebody who remained in Middle-Earth. (Or even better, some promising noble who was willing to join him rightaway - even that might have happened, if the person was corruptible enough.)

As I said above, I don't think he could find a "Geat Lord" who would remain in ME for good. The Numenorean settlers were most likely simple people who had not enough land in Numenor and desired to enrich themselves. As for the "willing noble" that would be improbable - impossible - to find a noble Numenorean willing to join the Enemy: the recently defeated Enemy. What for? Why? As you said yourself, at the time Numenoreans were good people as a rule. Moreover we know that Sauron used the Rings to deceive the future nazgul. It was a hook - not a reward for faithful service.

Originally Posted by Legate

]Letting his "prey" leave too far, beyond his reach, would be risky for Sauron. I don't think Sauron had already such daring plans so that he would plant a seed of evil in the very center of the Númenorean empire by letting a person with a Ring roam free there and Sauron would just "see what happens". That would be too risky. The Ring would be too far from him, and too close to the West. Sauron could not be sure what would happen if some wise Númenorean scholars or visiting Elves from the West by chance spotted something weird and the guy was revealed. Also, he could not say if the Ring's power would not wane or something, being so far in the West. Most of all, what would happen, once the person started to "fade"? The Dark Lord had to be sure that he can call the newly forming Nazgul to him ASAP.

I think the risk here was unavoidable: if he wanted persons of note, "great lords" of noble blood, influential people, he had to risk. Sauron knew how to take necessary risks, like taking the One to Numenor while a prisoner. As for returning to him… I remember how Gollum was drawn to Mordor. He was not yet a wraith, he had already lost the Ring - but he was drawn there all the same. I think the nazgul, once they entered the "transformation phase" were drawn to Sauron much in the same way.

Originally Posted by Legate

He wanted servants. And that's another point of mine.
Sauron needed to call the Ringwraith to himself once they became Ringwraiths, and my opinion also is that he might have hoped to achieve something, let's say, political by picking these special individuals. At least some of them were "kings... of old" (Sil), it sounds likely that some of them were rulers - let's say, in the case of the non-Númenorean ones, of some tribe, or even realm? Like, a leader of the Easterling tribe XY becoming a Ringwraith, now that's a good move - all of a sudden, Sauron can count with the whole tribe being on his side. I find it likely that he might have done something similar with the Númenorean governors in Middle-Earth.

I have no doubt it was Sauron's principal motive. Not only to get skilled, intelligent, strong servants, but to achieve great political advantages.

Originally Posted by Legate

To me, putting this information so close to each other could point to that the Nazgul had something to do with this "capturing the shore" move (I mean, something more important - not just the fact that they were leading Sauron's armies into battle). Be it exploiting the former Númenorean coast-dwellers' knowledge of the coastal fortresses, or be it attempts to seize power in the coastal cities by the Wraith-governors' rebellions, or using his friend Ar-Pizarro to help defeat Númenorean navy...

Indeed, whoever Sauron had "enlisted" into his service likely had some connection to these coastal cities. Maybe one had been a governor there for a time, maybe another had sailed there many times, maybe the third one had built the fortress in question during his reign…

Yet - note the important thing: no Numenorean fortress had fallen into Sauron's hands at the time because its governor became a nazgul - which means that if Sauron had this in mind while distributing the Rings, he had failed. What worked with the Eastern tribes, didn't work with Numenorean colonies, much less with Numenor itself. The only positive political result for Sauron was the darkening of Numenor and rebellion of the Kings against the Valar. Not bad, actually.

But if you deny the connection between the Shadow on Numenor and the distribution of the Rings, then you will have to admit that the Numenorean nazgul brought Sauron NO POLITICAL advantages at all. Three of the Nine Rings he had wasted only to get three seven-foot-tall guys in black cloaks speaking flawless Adunaic, nothing more.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Gordis

And who said there were no Nazgul in Numenor?
But seriously, we do know that there were three Numenoreans among the Nazgul, and not just your average Numenoreans, bur "great lords".

I never said they were "average Númenoreans", I actually reminded several times that they were "lords"...

Originally Posted by Gordis

Now, before Umbar was made into a great fortress of Númenor in SA 2280 and Pelargir was built in 2350, there were no large Numenorean dominions in ME. There were only Vinylonde/Lond Daer and the precursor of Umbar.

E-eee. Twooot. Wrong! There were some colonies, perhaps not great cities (in fact, except for those you mention, there were none like Minas Tirith until... well, until the refugees built Minas Tirith ), but large enough, eventually - you have to consider that all the important cities we read about in Sil and in LotR are the biggest cities of their era, let's say like New York today or, to speak in medieval terms, some Paris or London at its time; nevertheless, it does not mean that there were not lesser, but still pretty important cities. (And also, let us not forget that what we are talking about are just the cities in North-Western M-E. We know that the Númenoreans sailed very far, and we know for sure that they reached even places really far in Harad etc., so even there they surely had at least some coastal colonies, even though they were not the main point of focus for them.) Mainly, because:

Originally Posted by LotR, Tale of the Years

1200 The Númenoreans begin to make permanent havens.

And actually, even earlier:

Originally Posted by LotR, Tale of the Years

600 The first ships of the Númenoreans appear off the coasts.
(...)
c. 1000 Sauron, alarmed by the growing power of the Númenoreans, chooses Mordor as a land to make into a stronghold. He begins the building of Barad-dûr.

This put together implies that the Númenoreans posed a serious threat to Sauron (by the power they showed by their influence on Middle-Earth, first as teachers, and only later as conquerors) even back then, and they didn't have even permanent settlements!

So:

Originally Posted by Gordis

Would you expect any of these small settlements to be ruled by a "great lord?" More likely you would find there an old colonel serving his term in the colonies and very much looking forward to return home.

It might have been so in many instances, but the idea of a few high-ranked people coming there is not that impossible. The really excessive case was Aldarion, but he was the "top" and there were surely some a bit less important, but still important enough people before him. And, to return to my earlier example, after all, with the conquest of America, the guys who came there were also not always as unimportant, and mainly, they became important simply because of the fact that they were there as the chief representatives of their countries.

Originally Posted by Gordis

And if a "great lord" could be occasionally found in ME, of course he would never settle there for good, taking his wife, children and all, before some really strong fortresses would be built. Great lords have influential families, lots of relations and dependants, they would wish to show themselves at the court in Armenelos occasionally, they would wish to be buried in the family's crypt in Numenor.

That's true. But in the case of somebody who would have joined Sauron (later, and of course not all of them might have done that), he would be possibly willing to trade his family crypt for some realm in M-E... or actually, rather, eventually he would not think about death at all, right...

Originally Posted by Gordis

Therefore Sauron had to be aware that to whatever great lord he may have given a ring, this ring would find its way to Numenor sooner or later. It is not as if the wielder of a ring becomes Sauron's slave immediately - it is a gradual process.( Gandalf: "sooner or later - later, if he is strong or well-meaning to begin with, but neither strength nor good purpose will last - sooner or later the dark power will devour him"). For a long time a future nazgul would lead a normal life and go to Numenor when he wished.

Of course it's a gradual process. However, and that relates also to the former quote, I claim that Sauron would have tried to pick his subjects also based on who's likely not to go away, or at least not for long.

Originally Posted by Gordis

And the distribution of Rings was just a part of the rising darkness, wasn't it? "Rising darkness" is just a figure of speech.. The time coincidence shouldn't be glossed over, I think - the shadow suddenly fell on Numenor no sooner and no later than when Sauron likely distributed the Nine.
(..)
That is certainly true. The rising greed and the lust for domination COULD have arisen quite naturally. If not, it needed but very little prompting. But there was more, like this: A pretty strong statement, isn't it? Do you think it was just like that - out of the blue?

To both of these, I say the same - I think the darkness was something gradual. To the latter, it was certainly not all of the blue: simply, at last the time came when a King said something like that. Surely there were questions even before that running around among the people, like "why are we denied immortality" and such. It just goes around Men all the time. And once again, what I said about Arda Marred. Everything went from good towards evil. At last the time came when a King said something like that aloud. I see nothing weird about that. Look at an analogy - why was Denethor so anti-the return of the King? Faramir said that the Stewards were slowly diminishing, falling from their noble state. I believe it was the same with the Númenoreans. Like I said, long time enough for the decay to finally manifest itself.

And, with the darkness - it depends if you see it as a reason or a consequence. I think it's both, just the description of the process - people turning to evil, evil things stirring, etc. Just like it was before the end of the Third Age: Orcs and Trolls stirring, Saruman betraying etc.

Originally Posted by Gordis

One of the three Numenorean Lords had to be approached by Sauron in disguise directly, I think, and it had to be in ME. Yet for two others there was no such necessity, as the first one was most likely bidden to transmit the Rings to his kin or superiors. Riches and tribute were flowing to Numenor from the colonies. Tat-Telemmaite, for instance, even got his name from his love for Moria-silver. I guess his predecessors also loved costly and beautiful things. What more fitting present than an Elven Ring could there be for a King from one of ME governors? It would have been foolish NOT to use such an opportunity.

Well, this is something that I don't quite relate to. I see you are following your idea, but is it really so probable that a King would turn to a Nazgul? I find it very unlikely, personally. Many reasons were presented here. And surely Sauron would not be as daring to attempt that just as a trial-error method. I mean, if he tried to influence a King, he would see to that he has sixty agents all around him. And it seems outstretched to me already to think that Sauron would give two Rings to some guy, like "deliver it to some of your good friends". Now that's really stupid, in my opinion. The Rings of Power are not pieces of cake. Letting them go straight to Númenor would be enough, the more putting them to hands of somebody else to distribute them. Rings of Power are not the same as revolutionary pamphlets, that you'd just throw them among people and see what happens.

Originally Posted by Gordis

As I said above, I don't think he could find a "Geat Lord" who would remain in ME for good. The Numenorean settlers were most likely simple people who had not enough land in Numenor and desired to enrich themselves.

Or people who have seen the opportunity. And wishing more land to enrich yourself does not mean you do not have enough land in the beginning - quite the contrary, greedy people want just more and more, not considering how much they have. Although you are right that the great lord would probably stay on Númenor and boss around his subordinates to bring more gold from that fantastic land. But even this subordinate might want to gain more independance (which he would reach by staying in M-E. Now that made me thought of the biblical parable from Matthew 21:33 and further - the master who had the vineyard and the servants who keep it, but when the master is far enough, they count on that he is not bothering himself with coming personally and rebel to keep the vineyard for themselves. I believe the circumstances might have been similar in these cases of the Númenoreans. And siding with Sauron would help to get a continuing independance. I think some of the Nazgul were originally good-hearted, however I think even among these Númenoreans there might have been at least one greedy person capable of doing this. Mainly, coming to M-E for exploits makes one prone to greed, and also sort of pre-determines the kind of person who's doing that. Sauron would have certainly picked on somebody like that, if he appeared - and he had enough time to find somebody like that).

Originally Posted by Gordis

As for the "willing noble" that would be improbable - impossible - to find a noble Numenorean willing to join the Enemy: the recently defeated Enemy. What for? Why? As you said yourself, at the time Numenoreans were good people as a rule. Moreover we know that Sauron used the Rings to deceive the future nazgul. It was a hook - not a reward for faithful service.

The answer is above, as you already see. Certainly not all were completely good. And Sauron also did not seem completely evil. He was a good enough trickster to deceive somebody with good talks of power and what good can one achieve by siding with him. He could even pretend good intentions with the Númenoreans. Just imagine what he did with Ar-Pharazon. Or imagine what Saruman offered Gandalf: Sauron was certainly capable of similar speeches. Or what Sauron offered to the Dwarves of Erebor (the Council of Elrond). Enough said. As for "recently defeated", Sauron was by no means defeated. He was driven away from Eriador, but he still held much, much power in the rest of Middle-Earth - while the "rest" was, we cannot forget, bigger than the places that were free! No, Sauron still had enough impressive powers. And one loss at Gwathló, okay, but that was just one setback. One battle can be lost, it's really not that much for the whole war. Sauron seemed far from being "defeated"!

Originally Posted by Gordis

I think the risk here was unavoidable: if he wanted persons of note, "great lords" of noble blood, influential people, he had to risk. Sauron knew how to take necessary risks, like taking the One to Numenor while a prisoner. As for returning to him… I remember how Gollum was drawn to Mordor. He was not yet a wraith, he had already lost the Ring - but he was drawn there all the same. I think the nazgul, once they entered the "transformation phase" were drawn to Sauron much in the same way.

Agreed about Gollum. But it would still be better to draw the Nazgul to Mordor from the coasts than across the Sea. Too far. Too much water (water was always an obstacle for the evil). Too close to the West. Sauron could not know what would happen. Sauron took his Ring to Númenor because a) he was there personally, so he could afford it, b) he had much more power when having it with himself, c) it would be, I am certain, far more risky from his point of view to leave it in M-E than take it with himself. Anyway, after all, nobody ever wanted to willingly part with his Precious. So why should Sauron?

Originally Posted by Gordis

Yet - note the important thing: no Numenorean fortress had fallen into Sauron's hands at the time because its governor became a nazgul - which means that if Sauron had this in mind while distributing the Rings, he had failed. What worked with the Eastern tribes, didn't work with Numenorean colonies, much less with Numenor itself. The only positive political result for Sauron was the darkening of Numenor and rebellion of the Kings against the Valar. Not bad, actually.

Depending on how direct was his influence on the darkening of Númenor itself. I don't think, at least in the early days, that he was able to get many of his agents there. Remember, when he came to Númenor personally, he was amazed, and he likely had very little knowledge of what's it exactly looking like around there. Had he had hosts of agents among the Númenoreans already back then, he would also have been able to arrange things better for himself. Yet we hear nothing about that - nothing that upon arriving on Númenor, Sauron would be secretly winking at several unsuspicious people in the crowd.

But, as for overtaking the fortresses because somebody became a Nazgul - we hear nothing about that, but you put it in a rather strong way. Of course nobody became a Nazgul, it's not that a governor would come one morning wearing black cloak and being invisible and saying: "From now on, this fortress belongs to Sauron!" But I am sure there were battles, and some treachery might have been involved; there were so many colonies and everything, and of course not every single battle is recorded! Anyway, that was just a pure speculation. But exploiting somebody's knowledge about Númenor's defenses, that's almost for certain.

Originally Posted by Gordis

But if you deny the connection between the Shadow on Numenor and the distribution of the Rings, then you will have to admit that the Numenorean nazgul brought Sauron NO POLITICAL advantages at all. Three of the Nine Rings he had wasted only to get three seven-foot-tall guys in black cloaks speaking flawless Adunaic, nothing more.

And brought all these guys could do, or have done during their life in their society (colonies). And most of all, it was humiliating the Númenoreans. Now that is something that Sauron certainly wanted, to get them - because he hated them the most. And it probably helped him to get many of the Nazguls' original friends to his side, get to sorcery etc.

[Galin]

Here goes the fuller version of the confusion, otherwise known as my attempt to make The Line of Elros (LE) work with Tolkien-published text (the Appendices). As I say I cannot, of course, keep all of the matter of LE or related texts in the mix, but on the other hand so far I don't think I have added any impossible alterations (this remains to be seen starting with the matter of possible mistakes in math). The numbers in parenthesis are the numbers in LE (for comparison). They are often naturally variant, but sometimes are the same.

Tar Elendil b. 350 - d. 751, surrendered sceptre 740, married late in life (agrees with LE). When age 198 (171) Silmarien was born in 548 (521), and 2 years later (22 years later) when age 200 (193) Tar-Meneldur was born in 550 (543). Tar-Meneldur received the sceptre at age 190 (197) ruling 143 years (143 years) from 740 - 883. He gave up rule 59 years (59 years) before his death in 942 (942) living 392 years (399 years). When age 150 (157) Tar-Aldarion was born in 1700 (1700). Dates for Tar-Aldarion agree with LE, and Tar-Ancalime becoming Queen in 1075 agrees with Appendix B. With the next set of alterations I will not note every difference from LE but will usually include four details: length of life, length of rule, at what age a ruler took the sceptre, and at what age a given ruler had a child.

Tar-Surion b. 1174 - d. 1574, surrendered sceptre 1556, ruled 162 years (all as in LE). When age 106 (146) Tar-Telperien was born in 1280. She was 276 (236) when she took the sceptre in 1556, ruling 139 years (175 years) until her death in 1691. She lived 411 years (411) and had no heir.

Isilmo was younger than his sister and son of Tar-Surion. Tolkien does not say when he was born and I use this gap to make him significantly younger (in order to adjust for considerations in Appendix B). He then was born 118 years after his sister -- perhaps because, just before this time, Tar-Surion has come to know or accept that his daughter is truly set on not marrying, and thus she would have no heir. Isilmo was born in 1398 (Tar-Surion would be 224), and himself was age 198 when he had Tar-Minastir in 1596. This king and the next will have notably significant variances compared to LE.

Tar-Minastir b. 1596 - d. 2001, at age 95 (257) he took up rule in 1691 (giving Isilmo one year for passing the sceptre would not alter things much in any case), ruling 306 years (138 years) until 1997. He lived 405 years (399) and when age 260 (160) he had a son Tar-Ciryatan. In this way Minastir is king before aid to Middle-earth is sent (Appendix B), but the question arises as to why he would wait so long to have a child. I think we can introduce an imagined accidental death of a first child to help explain this, as long as this sort of thing is not overused. Tar-Minastir loved the Elves, but envied them. He can be said to be 'like Elros' in that he takes the sceptre young and has a notably long rule. With respect to his envious connection however, the first signs of the shadow fall in his time (Appendix A) and perhaps his first son dies by accident, which gets him thinking more about death in general and stirs this envy a bit (son falls from the Tower? possibly too much). Anyway, at age 260 he has a (second) son and the imagined heir that died could have been around 93 or so, not a child. This would make the first child born when Tar-Minastir was 165 (close to the same age LE has him having Tar-Ciryatan).

Tar-Ciryatan b. 1856 - d. 2257, living 401 years (401). At age 141 (235) he received the sceptre in 1997 and ruled 254 years (160) until 2251. When age 155 (166) had a son Tar-Atanamir. Tar-Ciryatan must surrender the sceptre in 2251 in order to agree with Appendix B. '2251 Tar-Atanamir takes the sceptre. Rebellion and division of the Numenoreans begins.' As to his name I will adopt the idea that he built more opulent vessels for himself and those that served him. From Tar-Atanamir to Ar-Adunakhor I'll be altering the dates so that when Ar-Adunakhor is reached -- without using Tar-Ardamin, as he does not appear in the list of rulers as published by JRRT -- the dates and details of LE can again serve. Thus the alterations must swing back to LE by the time of Tar-Calmacil, skipping Tar-Ardamin to Ar-Adunakhor.

Tar-Atanamir b. 2011 - d. 2432, living 421 years (421). At age 240 (229) received the sceptre in 2251 ruling 181 years (192). When age 186 (186) had Tar-Ancalimon b. 2197 - d. 2557, living 360 years (400). At age 235 (235) received the sceptre in 2432 ruling 125 years (165). When age 120 (150) had Tar-Telemmaite b. 2317 - d. 2668, living 351 years (390). At age 240 (250) received the sceptre in 2557 ruling 111 years (140). At age 110 (141) had Tar-Vanimelde b. 2427 - d. 2753, living 326 years (360). At age 241 (249) received sceptre in 2668 ruling 85 years (111). At age 120 (129) had Tar-Alcarin b. 2547 - d. 2828, living 281 years (331). At age 206 (231) received sceptre in 2753 ruling 75 years (100). At age 84 (110) had Tar-Calmacil.

We also have the matter of Tar-Anducal withholding the rule from Tar-Alcarin for 20 years, thus the numbers above reflect rightful rule. Actual rule then would be 55 (80). Tar-Calmacil b. 2631 - d. 2899, living 268 years (309). At age 197 (221) received the sceptre in 2828 ruling 71 years (88). At age 78 had Ar-Adunakhor (at age 102 had Tar-Ardamin). Ar-Adunakhor b. 2709 - d. 2962. He received the sceptre in 2899 - 2962, ruled 63 years and so on, as in The Line of Elros.

I realize that on the way from Atanamir to Ar-Adunakhor some things have been shortened by comparison to LE (a greater waning let's say), but that seems acceptable enough if it doesn't conflict with other things. I didn't re-check the numbers for some of these rulers, and there could be errors just from copying my notes incorrectly. I would be surprised to find no errors here, but I've had enough math for today.

And yes I know no one really cares at this point, if anyone ever did that is

[Gordis]

Sorry again - to check all this needs a lot of work - I won't be able to before April.