Anti-Homeschool Germany

[The Gaffer]

Kids are, by and large, pretty robust and will take most of what is thrown at them. Methods of schooling owe more to what works for the rest of society than what works best for the kids. (If we're honest, we have little solid evidence about that).

Interestingly, if you look at Scandinavia, many kids don't start formal teaching until age 7 or 8. By the time they're 10 or 11 they've caught up and overtaken kids in other countries in terms of ability.

I wouldn't want to teach my kids at home because

a) I want them to grow up confident of themselves in different settings and I think there would be a greater risk of that not happening if they're homeschooled
b) I want them to experience different points of view and develop the skills to get on with them
c) I don't think I'd do a better job than a professionally trained teacher, any more than I would feel comfortable doing a home appendectomy
d) It would probably do my head in.

[sisterandcousinandaunt]

teach reading (particularly) later. I'm sure any of these things work better for some kids than others.

But the United States, traditionally, isn't as much about "what works for society" as "what works for the individual." We started from a premise of inalienable rights that the state needed reason to restrict. There's still a strong element of federalism in our national psyche. That may be part of the reason why there's a reaction to centralized curriculum and so forth. And the US is big. It's really, really big, and not homogeneous in population. Driving from Presque Isle, Maine to Miami, Florida (both lovely spots, btw ) is a journey of 1900 miles, it would take you about 30 hours driving straight through. And that's the short direction. Spanish language classes might be more relevant in Texas than in Minnesota.

I think the list of reasons most people have for not teaching their kids at home is longer than the reasons they have for teaching them at home. Otherwise, there would be a much stronger movement to abolish schooling altogether than there is, kwim? I think the impulse to homeschool is naturally self-limiting. (and thank goodness, in most cases. ) Even people who homeschool don't necessarily homeschool all their children.

So I'm unsure about the need for government to be involved in naturally self-limiting impulses. And I'm REALLY unsure about the need for the government to react punitively against individuals because they choose to forgo government services. In this country, you are not required to use the Post Office, to vote, to connect to public water or sewer in rural districts, or to ever set foot in a public library.

And the government, btw, even if it grants you a high school diploma, will not necessarily accept you as a student to one of their public colleges or universities.

So, if you're one of the rare families who figure homeschooling is a better option than others, well, I think the government's interest is limited to the health and safety of the children. Because that's more than they require for schooled children, and I don't see a compelling reason why the government's standards for private activity should be higher than that for the government's own activity.

[brownjenkins]

The main reason for compulsory education is to take care of the small percentage of parents who would choose to not send their kids to school yet not educate them in any real way. Parents who don't give a damn about their children's education do exist.

[Butterbeer]

as does 'Just william'

[sisterandcousinandaunt]

Originally Posted by brownjenkins

The main reason for compulsory education is to take care of the small percentage of parents who would choose to not send their kids to school yet not educate them in any real way. Parents who don't give a damn about their children's education do exist.

Therefore, compulsory education has not eliminated them.

[brownjenkins]

Originally Posted by sisterandcousinandaunt

Therefore, compulsory education has not eliminated them.

You can't eliminate bad parents, or any societal problem, you can only try to limit the damage. Requiring children to be in school helps, even if it doesn't completely solve the problem.

Plus, if you took away the compulsory aspect of education, what's to stop kids from coming and going from school whenever they like?

[sisterandcousinandaunt]

What stops people from randomly going to the library and attending concerts?

If the schools are attractive places to be, people go. If not, why should they be compelled to go?

I doubt anyone forces you to come here, yet you do.

[sisterandcousinandaunt]

What have you learned in the last year, and why?

[Lief Erikson]

Originally Posted by brownjenkins

The main reason for compulsory education is to take care of the small percentage of parents who would choose to not send their kids to school yet not educate them in any real way. Parents who don't give a damn about their children's education do exist.

Yeah, but unfortunately a lot of children come out of the public education system without a thing in their heads, according to more than one professor I've heard from. I've seen it with my own eyes, too. One neat aspect of homeschooling is that through it, parents have a chance to instill in their children a real caring about their education. Teachers often can't do that, especially with knowledge often being "uncool" among youth in American highschools.

Originally Posted by The Gaffer

I wouldn't want to teach my kids at home because

a) I want them to grow up confident of themselves in different settings and I think there would be a greater risk of that not happening if they're homeschooled

In my personal experience, which I grant is not very extensive, homeschoolers often are actually more self-confident than those who go to public school. Being taught at home means they don't have as much pressure to fit in, through a large section of their lives. So, growing up with less pressure to fit in, they often can grow up thinking more independently and less like mainstream public opinion.

There is some limitation in the extent of one's experiences, depending on the individual, but in terms of essential character development, I've seen wonderful things result.

Originally Posted by The Gaffer

b) I want them to experience different points of view and develop the skills to get on with them

But what I've seen public school produce is too much acceptance of mainstream public opinion and too little independent thinking. And also a lot of fear of speaking up for one's beliefs among others, and a lack of will to debate without superiority of numbers (and sometimes even with superiority of numbers). That's what I've seen in most people who have come out of public school, anyway, and that even transfers into college, for a fair number of people. That is rather bothersome, and I think it's partially to be attributed to the public school formed need to get along.

Originally Posted by The Gaffer

c) I don't think I'd do a better job than a professionally trained teacher, any more than I would feel comfortable doing a home appendectomy

You may be right. But I think the public education system, at least in the US, is very weak because it caters to political correctness to and beyond the point of absurdity. That has riled one of my liberal professors to a great deal of anger. But political correctness aside, often it's just very low quality, because teachers who have large classes often dub the classes down to the lowest denominator of student. That makes the class boring, which makes all the other students less interested, which contributes to a problem of students not caring about their education.

As for myself, I personally don't know whether I'll homeschool or not. I haven't thought that far ahead. But I do think that there are significant problems with the public school system, and I love, love, love homeschool, because of how much it has done for me and my family . My parents homeschooled us.

I've been accepted into a very good college, my older sister was accepted into Oxford, and my younger sister has been accepted into every college she applied to. The close family bonds that form, among many other things, have made it a very, very beautiful part of my life.

And action to prevent homeschooling, like Germany is taking, makes me furious.

Originally Posted by The Gaffer

d) It would probably do my head in.

That is a very understandable reason!

[Butterbeer]

Originally Posted by Lief Erikson

There is some limitation in the extent of one's experiences, depending on the individual, but in terms of essential character development, I've seen wonderful things result!

... put that mirror DOWN Lief- you'll wear it out!

[Valandil]

Originally Posted by The Gaffer

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c) I don't think I'd do a better job than a professionally trained teacher, any more than I would feel comfortable doing a home appendectomy
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Think about it this way though:

Yes - it would be very hard for me to do the job a school teacher does - to be in front of a class of 15, 20, 25, 30 (or more - esp oftentimes here in Chicago) - and teach them much of anything at all.

But... let you, me or my wife sit down with just our own kid(s) and a good curriculum, and we could hold our own. Most studies, in fact, would indicate we'd have better results.

- - - - - - - -

Our oldest was in a traditional public school for K, 1 and 2. This year we started him and our second one (going into Kindergarten) in a brand new charter school, of a unique new model - called "Chicago Virtual Charter School". We actually like this model very much (we had discussed homeschooling four years ago, but my wife didn't feel confident in doing it on her own). This school is under the Chicago Board of Education. The curriculum comes through a company called "K12", which also runs the school. We have packets for each class, and do most of the work at home. The kids were pre-tested to establish where they were, and a lesson plan tailored for each one - and now they progress through the material at their own pace (which is surprisingly fast). There's an online component - so we were even provided with a computer and reimbursement for internet connection. The kids are required to do a total of 5 hours each day and make progress through their courses. Tracking of progress and attendance are done online - and I can check on how they're doing from any internet connection. Each kid has a teacher assigned to them, and they're available via email or phone. Once per week, the kids go in to a central location for a class - which is a science experiment. They also have "clubs" at the central school on Fridays. Right now the school has grades K-8, and they want to add a high school within a couple years.

All that - for a fraction of the cost of traditional public education, and our children are just doing great. Not only are they rapidly progressing through the material, but our older one is becoming much more sure of himself and our second one's behavior problems are diminishing.

We also have them both in piano lessons and park district sports activities.

We know that not all families can do their school this way - but we like it, and we're glad that we can. In fact, we think it's sort of a "wave of the future".

But... all is not rosy. The Chicago Teachers' Union has strongly opposed us from the start. Because of their influence, we were barely certified by the State Board of Ed (upon which certification the CTU sued the state - and the school). And now, a state legislator is trying to bring up a measure to close, or otherwise hamper our school. This last, we've successfully fought so far - including with a couple trips to Springfield to show up for committee meetings (my wife has gone both times).

Anyway - point being, that we're now doing a sort of "homeschooling" - but in a model that provides far more educational support than most homeschool families receive. And... since we just have a few kids to teach (our own), we are able to do a pretty good job.

[Butterbeer]

well, Goodluck.

It's true what Lief said, in one sense- i never felt challenged at all during high school - nor much at A level.

...fancy the unions not liking virtual schools though, huh? Bit of a shock that one!

[brownjenkins]

Originally Posted by sisterandcousinandaunt

What stops people from randomly going to the library and attending concerts?

If the schools are attractive places to be, people go. If not, why should they be compelled to go?

I doubt anyone forces you to come here, yet you do.

I wouldn't pay taxes if they didn't make me. Yet, ultimately, they pay for many things that are essential to the survival of my society.

[brownjenkins]

Originally Posted by Lief Erikson

Yeah, but unfortunately a lot of children come out of the public education system without a thing in their heads, according to more than one professor I've heard from. I've seen it with my own eyes, too. One neat aspect of homeschooling is that through it, parents have a chance to instill in their children a real caring about their education. Teachers often can't do that, especially with knowledge often being "uncool" among youth in American highschools.

I try to judge by the positives as opposed to the inevitable negatives. If one child of "bad" parents receives a decent education due to compulsory public education, it is a good thing.

[brownjenkins]

Originally Posted by sisterandcousinandaunt

What have you learned in the last year, and why?

I've learned that pride is a much stronger emotion than reason.

I assume you mean in terms of education though.

A lot by choice, from watching educational television, browsing the 'net and learning about things that interest me, etc. MIT publishes all their courses to the internet for free now, many with video lectures, and I've been enjoying those quite a bit in my free time.

But compulsory education is still a part of the picture as well. I work in graphics and computer networking, both of which I am required to keep up on. As a result, I've taken various training courses through work to keep me up to speed on new developments in my field.

Which brings up an interesting question, how do you feel about universities "compelling" their students to take certain courses in order to earn a degree?

[brownjenkins]

Originally Posted by Valandil

Anyway - point being, that we're now doing a sort of "homeschooling" - but in a model that provides far more educational support than most homeschool families receive. And... since we just have a few kids to teach (our own), we are able to do a pretty good job.

I like that model. One on one education is definitely a plus, and maintaining at least some level of education with a group of peers is huge as well.

The difficult part is that there are so many families in which both parents must work to support their children, not to mention single-parent situations, that grouping kids together for education becomes a necessity.

I'm curious, how would you feel, hypothetically, about taking on a few children in addition to your own to educate?

[Lief Erikson]

Originally Posted by Butterbeer

... put that mirror DOWN Lief

Butterbeer, I appreciate that you're only trying to help me, but would you please stop repeating this phrase?

[sisterandcousinandaunt]

Originally Posted by brownjenkins

I've learned that pride is a much stronger emotion than reason.

I assume you mean in terms of education though.

A lot by choice, from watching educational television, browsing the 'net and learning about things that interest me, etc. MIT publishes all their courses to the internet for free now, many with video lectures, and I've been enjoying those quite a bit in my free time.

But compulsory education is still a part of the picture as well. I work in graphics and computer networking, both of which I am required to keep up on. As a result, I've taken various training courses through work to keep me up to speed on new developments in my field.

Which brings up an interesting question, how do you feel about universities "compelling" their students to take certain courses in order to earn a degree?

If you really didn't want to do continuing ed for your job, you could take a job as a janitor. No one would throw you in jail for truancy.

I think it's swell that universities have breadth requirements. That's why you pay them so well. Of course, if you don't want to attend a university with that kind of requirement, it's nice that you can choose to major in culinary arts, instead.

In fact, if you, as an adult, want to major in Hobbit Biology at the University of Imagination, you're free to do that. Chances are a place that needs you to know something about actual Biology wouldn't be impressed though.

But you can try it.