Why you believe what you believe I

[Rían]

Originally Posted by brownjenkins

... and it may very well be that there is an intelligent force behind it, but this force is not quite as all-knowing, all-powerful and wise as we'd like to believe... maybe we were created in god's image

LOL! Good one!

(altho wrong ... )

*pictures God slapping his hand to his forehead - "Oy! I was supposed to fix those dinosaurs yesterday, and NOW look what happened!" *

[Earniel]

So Lirza, if you don't me askin'. I have the feeling you prefer to stay with your feet firmly on the ground but haven't you ever wanted there to be something 'more' to your existance; beyond the living, dying and being recycled?

[Lizra]

Well yes Earniel! I want more now! It would be wonderful if the religions were true (well, some of them ) but I just don't see it. I can't delude myself that seriously.

[Lizra]

Originally Posted by RÃ*an

Lizra is still the one in the seat, altho posts from others are fine, too, because it helps people know where you're coming from when you ask questions. But the main focus stays on Lizra right now, and I'd like to see some more questions come her way.

Here's a few for ya, babe! (and BTW, is the "swing" in "swing babe" referring to the dance, or something else?!)

1. What makes your heart ache, either with joy or sadness?

2. You believe that god/s don't exist. I believe that God exists. If one of us can be shown to be right, would you believe that means that the other is wrong?

3. What makes you angry?

4. As far as Christianity (my own particular worldview ) - are you attracted to it in any way, shape or form whatsoever? Does anything repel you from it, besides the fact that you don't think it's true? Regardless of whether it's true or not, would you like it to be true, or would you prefer it to NOT be true? Why?

5. Are you asleep yet? (I know my posts make you fall asleep! )

I'm a swinging babe, so if you want to have some swinging fun, you'd do well to swing with me. I suppose the "swing" means hip, fun, happening.....it's one of those ones where if you have to ask, I guess you don't get it.

1. I don't really have a pat answer for that Rian...heart aches just kind of sneak up on you.

2. I believe what I believe, If I am presented with compelling factual evidence that makes me change my beliefs I will. Other people's beliefs don't really enter into it.

3. Oh, the usual stuff, tailgaters and crappy drivers, bad restaurant service, rudeness, having to repeat myself over and over....

4. Chrisitianity would be nice if it were real. Life would be pretty simple if there were "rules"!

5. No, not yet, this one isn't a "sleeper"!

[Rían]

Originally Posted by Lizra

1. I don't really have a pat answer for that Rian...heart aches just kind of sneak up on you.

I didn't want a pat answer *wistful smilie* Can you add anything more? Both joy and sorrow.



Here's more: (are you tired of them yet? You may hop off the hot seat at any time! )

8. Do you feel that it's a loss to the world, in some sense, when people die?

9. Is there anything that you like/dislike about being an atheist?

10. What type of people do you like the best?



edit - ps, I was just teasing you about the swinging - I was referring to the "swinging" lifestyle of swapping spouses!

[Lizra]

Well, Rian, as I said, heartache is "of the moment" and...I can think of better things to do than to sit around trying to remember what makes me really, really sad! I try to forget that stuff. I guess bad, hurtful things I can't do anything about.

8. It's certainly a loss to the people who care about the person who dies. Or even future people who would have cared, as in the instance of my brother, my children, who never knew him are sad they have no uncle. But, that's the way it goes, we're born, we die. You gotta take the good with the bad.

9. It's a bummer I can't do the church/church group thing! But as I mentioned earlier, you gotta believe!


10. I like warm, friendly people.

[inked]

O Swing Babe,

I am glad you trust your senses within the caveats of possible misunderstanding. That I take it means that reality is outside of you and discoverable.

You earlier said you were rational. That means you rely on reason. Why do you trust reason? And does it partake of reality as your senses?

thread and quite educational. If you need a break from seriousness, check out the philosphizing on the DON'T PANIC thread. Just consider it a lighter look at sensory perception and rationality !

[Lizra]

Why do I trust reason? Hmmm, let's see, well...reason works best! My intuition isn't very reliable, and because of my age, I have a decent well of experience to draw from. What other good options are out there INKED?

I'm not sure I understand the second question very well, but I use the info I've gathered through my senses, along with memories of past experience, and a little gut feeling (just for fun! ) to come to my conclusions. Sometimes my conclusion is "I don't know" though.

[Nurvingiel]

Do you feel that there is definitely nothing more to the universe than what we see, or just probably not?

(That was the best way I could think of to phrase that question, sorry if it sounds mean. It's not intended that way. )

There is much of the universe, from a scientific perspective, that we cannot see. What do you think is out there?

I'm just curious. My last question kind of doesn't have a lot to do with your worldview.

Thanks for sitting on the hot seat! Your answers are interesting and appreciated.

[Last Child of Ungoliant]

Originally Posted by Shelob's Hubby

LCOU, where you raised Buddhist? Or did you convert to Buddhism on your own?

Lizra, do you believe that all of the Bible, the Koran, the Torah, the Vedas, etc. where completely made up by some ancient false-prophet, through legend, or some other way?

I was brough up atheist, as were all my family,
and I have converted to buddhism about 4 years sinceforth

and in answer to Lizra, i believe that there is a point to existence, because
otherwise it would just be like some alien or something is having one great
big joke at our expense if you see what I mean... although I don't!!

[Lizra]

Originally Posted by Nurvingiel

Do you feel that there is definitely nothing more to the universe than what we see, or just probably not?

(That was the best way I could think of to phrase that question, sorry if it sounds mean. It's not intended that way. )

There is much of the universe, from a scientific perspective, that we cannot see. What do you think is out there?

I'm just curious. My last question kind of doesn't have a lot to do with your worldview.

Thanks for sitting on the hot seat! Your answers are interesting and appreciated.

Oh there's tons of stuff out there we don't have a clue about! I just don't think our human created religions have much of a clue either.

Well, This thread is nice beacause it hasn't broke down into the same old same old...if you know what I mean!

No I don't understand LCoU! I don't understand why you think it is obvious/apparent (or whatever! ) that the unverse must be part of someone's master plan, and not the result of time, space, and various forces of ...nature...? (for lack of a better word )

[mewhmag]

i think the important part is: we humans created a lot, but we didn´t create the universe, and most certainly not reason... we have reason, and we have beauty, goodness, truth, and you can´t deduce these things from the material world.

well, doesn´t matter, anyway. can i throw in an additional question that has presumeably been asked 2137,5 times... i am still a newbie (how long can i demand this status, btw.) is it of any significance to you that Tolkien was a very religious author, or not? can you find something of your own beliefs in his work.

cheers,

mewhmag

[brownjenkins]

Originally Posted by RÃ*an

(altho wrong ... )

prove it!

[Rían]

Originally Posted by brownjenkins

prove it!

gotta wait for my turn



(altho I agree with half of what you said - IMHO, we are indeed created in God's image. It's the other half I disagree with - that God's a bit slow on the uptake and fairly ineffective - that view is put forth in a book entitled something like "why bad things happen to good people" by some Jewish rabbi, IIRC)



PS - welcome to the Moot and to this discussion, mewhmag I hope you like it here I'd say 11 posts is still a newbie! But you'll get sucked in real soon and up that post count in no time a'tall!

[Rían]

Originally Posted by Lizra

Well, Rian, as I said, heartache is "of the moment" and...I can think of better things to do than to sit around trying to remember what makes me really, really sad!

But you're still missing the second part of that question. You can take a pass on answering the "sad" part (I certainly understand!), but what makes your heart ache with joy? (examples - certain pieces of music, certain flowers in your gardens, when your son does well in a game, certain parts in LOTR, a certain look your husband gives you, an unexpected call from a close friend, etc.)

9. It's a bummer I can't do the church/church group thing!

But why is it a bummer if you think the church people are deluded in an important area of life? Could you explain a little more, please - I don't quite get it. What is it that you're bummed about?

[Lizra]

As far as what makes my heart ache with joy....I'm just not that detail oriented to say. I'm not trying to be flippant, I just don't keep track of the causes of serious sincere emotions, they flow freely, and surprisingly sometimes. Also, the reasons change as I do.

It's a bummer to miss the church/church group thing because it sounds like a party. (not always of course... but you get my drift ) I don't care about the religion part, but I do really enjoy getting together with other people for good causes, good food, singing, sincere connecting...just good times. Understand?

Mewhmag, Yes I realize Tolien was religious, but it doesn't really matter either way for me. I like The Hobbit and The Lord of the Rings for the great fantasy escapism they provide me. Tolkien's religious veiws are uninteresting to me.

Well, I think I've been in "the seat" long enough...unless someone has something else they are particularly curious about my atheism....let's move on to someone else.

[Valandil]

Lizra... thank you for your answers!

[Rían]

Originally Posted by Lizra

As far as what makes my heart ache with joy....I'm just not that detail oriented to say. I'm not trying to be flippant, I just don't keep track of the causes of serious sincere emotions, they flow freely, and surprisingly sometimes. Also, the reasons change as I do.

I wish you could have answered; I would have liked to know you better Thanks for being patient with my question. C.S. Lewis has a great book called "Surprised by Joy" - I know what you mean how they sometimes are surprising!

It's a bummer to miss the church/church group thing because it sounds like a party. (not always of course... but you get my drift ) I don't care about the religion part, but I do really enjoy getting together with other people for good causes, good food, singing, sincere connecting...just good times. Understand?

Yes, thanks (and it is wonderful!)

Well, I think I've been in "the seat" long enough...unless someone has something else they are particularly curious about my atheism....let's move on to someone else.

Well, I guess I fall into your "unless" category ...

Part of the purpose of this thread was to let a person bring up questions of the "I have a logical problem with this aspect" type about the hot-seat-person's beliefs, so if you wouldn't mind, I'd like to pose a few of those. You may certainly decline to answer, if your bottom is numb from being in the seat too long!

My other questions were to let me understand your thoughts/beliefs more. Based on what you believe and have shared in these answers and in other places, I'll ask a few more:

11-plus : I know you're against abortion. Given your beliefs, why? Since you think reason is important, do you have a reasoned opinion on why abortion is wrong? To me, those two beliefs (atheism, and being against abortion) just don't jive. And that's part of how I judge how valid a person's beliefs are - whether or not they're internally consistent and logical.

If you're 8 months pregnant and decide that you don't want another kid, why NOT just abort it? You seem to believe that it's wrong. How does "wrong" have any meaning if there is no authority over mankind anywhere, who has created them and knows what is harmful and wrong and what isn't? (i.e., God). Is right just whatever the majority thinks is right? Yet I know you don't hold to that opinion all the time ...

If I think abortion is right, then is it right for you as well as for me? Or is it right for me, but you wouldn't do it, but you still have no problem and feel no sadness at all with me doing it because it's right for me? Or do you feel a sadness if I aborted a full-term baby, even if I thought it was right? Is it a loss somehow that the baby didn't live? Why or why not?

If your morals are based only on what YOU think, then how can anyone else's morals be called wrong, if they disagree with yours, as long as they're based on what THEY think?

(And I can't stress enough that these are sincere questions - I'm not trying to trick you or anything. I sincerely do NOT understand how those positions mesh together. You don't need to answer them one-by-one, you can take them kind of all together.)

Anyhoo - answer if you'd like to, or hop down and we'll let someone else go, unless anyone else has questions for you that you're willing to take. And thank you for your responses so far, I've enjoyed getting to know you better, and I hope you never change your beautiful avatar!

[Lizra]

I don't believe I think "about" things as much as you do!

Abortion...I'm against it because I personally feel it's killing a new human life. It strikes me as wrong. You stop a new being from growing and living. Birth control is out there, use it if you don't want children.

I don't consciously reason everything out Rian. Sometimes I just go with my gut. I trust myself fairly well by now.

Why does my atheism have anything to do with my not wanting to kill a new baby?
I don't veiw my opinions as some "worldveiw" that needs to be flawless, for analysis or debate purposes. Once again, I trust myself to do the right thing. That's probably because I know myself pretty well be now.

I don't need an authority figure, I AM the authority figure! Actually, the laws and rules of our country are the "authority" for me. If I don't agree with them I vote accordingly. A fictional authority figure seems pointless to me, and I think the human made gods are just that, fictional.

I think it is wrong for someone to abort a baby, but I am in no position to dictate to others. I would offer my opinion if asked. There are many, many "losses" in this world, and I have no control over most of them. I just try to bend with the winds and personally do what I think is right.

I'm not going around calling everybody's morals wrong. Since I am an American, I vote to speak my voice, my power pretty much stops there. Why do I think my opinions are "right"? Why would I think they are wrong? I'm not stupid! And other people think their opinions are right. Tell me something I don't know!

I have spent my liftime develeloping my opinions, and for me, they are good. It's not "all or nothing" on the right/wrong thing. I think you are getting too clinical when you try to dissect peoples opinions this way. There is some leeway, and then for some things, there is a line that shouldn't be crossed. That is what our judicial system is for, isn't it?

[Arien the Maia]

Originally Posted by Shelob's Hubby

First, to Arien. I guess I always wondered about why Catholics always do so much tradition and ceremony compared to Protestants (well most Protestants ). I don't think that it's wrong (Romans 14), but I want to know why Catholics think it's right.
Next, to BoP and Lizra. Why do you think that there is no God? I don't know if this is what you believe or not, but I have found that a lot of people believe that there is no God because they believe in evolution. My dad is an atheist and a biologist and my mom is a Christian so I have a good understanding of both sides. There is nothing in the Theory of Evolution and the Big Bang that excludes God and says that he doesn't exist. There is nothing in the Bible that says that evolution didn't take place. Some people take the Bible too literally. I am a Christian that believes in evolution. If you don't believe in God for some other reason, that's fine. I just don't like it when someone thinks that they can't believe in God because evolution makes sense to them. I'd love to explain this more if anyone else is interested.

I know we're still discussing what Lizra believes but I want to answer this before I forget about it!
First, Are you refering to all the rituals that Catholics do...for example, in the Mass and things like that? If so, then I think that ceremony is more of just a way of saying the Mass (which is in essence a big prayer). Alot of it has to do with different cultures. For example there are over 20 different rite in the Catholic Church. The biggest being the Roman (or Western) rite. However, if I were to go to one of the Eastern rites (like Ukrainian rite) I might find the way they do things completely different than the Roman rite. It all has to do with different cultures. After all the name "catholic" means universal!