Bill Ferny: Man or Hobbit

[Elanor the Fair]

Tolkien rarely, if ever, referred to Hobbits as men in LotR, I think to avoid confusion.

On the benches were various folk: men of Bree, a collection of local hobbits (sitting chattering together), a few more dwarves, and other vague figures difficult to make out away in the shadows and corners.

I think it would be safe to say, despite the relationship between Men and Hobbits, that if Tolkien referred to a character as being a man then he was a Man - make any sense???
He also referred to Bilbo as a gentlehobbit not a gentleman, although he does refer to a postman in Hobbiton.....

I have always thought Bill Ferny was a Man - I don't know why, but as supporting evidence in addition to that already posted .....

Over the hedge another man was staring boldly.

This was Bill Ferny and he was obviously tall enough to stare over a hedge!!

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

And as already posted it said one of the men's surnames was Ferny.

[Attalus]

As BoP says, Merry was both a Man and a male. Check the Prologue, "Concerning Hobbits."

[Haradrim]

it says in the prolouge that hobbits and men were connectexd a very very very very long time ago. If you believe in the theroy of evolution ( which som ehere do and some dont and I respect both sides) then apes and humans a very very very very long time ago were once connected but you would never call a monkey human. Its a monkey. Same thing for hobbits and men. They are different now. Therefore Merry contributed to the kill cause he wasnt of the race of men and Eowyn cause she was female.

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

Finally it is all cleared up

[BeardofPants]

Originally Posted by Haradrim

it says in the prolouge that hobbits and men were connectexd a very very very very long time ago. If you believe in the theroy of evolution ( which som ehere do and some dont and I respect both sides) then apes and humans a very very very very long time ago were once connected but you would never call a monkey human. Its a monkey. Same thing for hobbits and men. They are different now. Therefore Merry contributed to the kill cause he wasnt of the race of men and Eowyn cause she was female.

Haradrim, I'm going to kick your little heiny to heck and back. I just POSTED both that quote, and the Tolkien's Letters quote which both EXPLICITLY state that hobbits are Men. Not an off shoot branch, not a not-man, not anything you say. They're MEN, MEN, MEN!!

[BeardofPants]

Reposting for the blind eedjits:

The Hobbits are, of course, really meant to be a branch** of the specifically human race......

....but are represented as being more in touch with 'nature' (the soil and other living things, plants and animals), and abnormally, for humans, free from ambition or greed of wealth.

**Note, Tolkien says a branch of the human race, NOT a separate species like that of monkey compared to humans. A better comparison would be Homo sapiens sapiens, and Homo sapiens neanderthalensis, which both belong in the same species.

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

Therefore they aren't humans just a branch of that race.

[BeardofPants]

*sigh* They're a sub-branch of humans. Therefore... human. How hard can it be? They're the SAME species.

[Haradrim]

Sorry abotu restating what you said in my last post. I want trying to mean that I had just found that I was just restating it. Also yes well monkeys right now are another species but say you bringit back to around the dividing point. Then you could day that they are relatively the same species, they are just branches off the same line. They are at that point the same except for a few differences. Then aftera very very very long time they are so different that they are consdiered different species. I believe it is the same for Hobbits and Men. Hobbits were a long time ago a branch of men. However eventually. They grew more and more different. Eventually in LOTR you consider them a seperate species. Therefore as I said before Meerry could help kill the Witchking cuz he wasnt of the race of men and Eowyn could cuz she wasnt a male.

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

Yeah for example do humans have hairy feet and grow to about 4ft tall.

[BeardofPants]

I give up. I really do. You two can talk yerselves blue. I'm going back to the loony bin.

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

You are probably right but I have never thought of hobbits as men for some of those reasons above.

[Attalus]

Nope, say it as often as you want to, Hobbits are Men. Homo sapiens sapiens. Tolkien said it, not me, and you can't unsay it. EDIT: And Men do grow 4 feet tall. The Bushmen of the Kalahari, for example. Hairy feet don't make any difference. Consider the Percheron, the Clydesdale, and the Thoroughbred.

[BeardofPants]

*BoP returns briefly from the padded cell to give Attalus a hug*

Thank god, reinforcements arrived.

Yep, the pygmies are pretty darned short, and I swear I saw hairy feet on an italian once... but they're already pretty hairy.

Another consideration: Tolkien more than likely did NOT believe in the theory of evolution; so that argument is bunk anyway. (As much as it pains me, since I have a degree in anthropology....) Besides, even if Tolkien WAS buying into the ToE, well, hobbits would still be classed as Homo sapiens because he explicitly states that hobbits belong to the SAME species as Men. Monkeys don't even come into the equation at all. AS I SAID BEFORE. In the words of Tolkien, "...abormally for humans...." - post twice, ignored both times. That's it, in a NUTSHELL. IOW, Hobbits are all those traits DESPITE being human.

*BoP returns to her cell, with a more than slightly maddened glint in her eye*

[Meriadoc Brandybuck]

Poor BoP... she's going mad! More support on the way! (Later, when I have more time.)

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

Okay, I give in. Hobbits are men.

[Attalus]

Originally Posted by BeardofPants

*BoP returns briefly from the padded cell to give Attalus a hug*

Thank god, reinforcements arrived.

*BoP returns to her cell, with a more than slightly maddened glint in her eye*

LOL, thanks. Hugs always welcome.

[Fat middle]

Originally Posted by BeardofPants

Hmmm... bloody 'ell. If yer gonna post en-mass in the thread, at least try and do a little research as well, from time to time?

LOL That's my BoP

To try and clarify what BoP says about races and branches: I think it is the same that with Orcs.

Orc is a race that includes different branches: Goblins, hobgoblins, Orcs, Uruk-hais...

In the same way, the race of Men include Hobbits and Men

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

Okay I understand now.