09-12-2004, 04:38 PM | #61 | |
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My Fanfic: Letters of Firiel Tales of Nolduryon Visitors Come to Court Ñ á ë ?* ó ú é ä ï ö Ö ñ É Þ ð ß ® ™ [Xurl=Xhttp://entmoot.tolkientrail.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=ABCXYZ#postABCXYZ]text[/Xurl] Splitting Threads is SUCH Hard Work!! |
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09-12-2004, 04:49 PM | #62 | ||
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EDIT: on that part about an evil lord of the hillmen seizing power, speculating alone I almost wonder if there was something similar to what Ar-Pharazon had done to seize the throne of Numenor: perhaps this evil lord seized the hand in marriage of Rhudaur's last surviving descendant of that branch of the royal line (obviously a female, for this to work) - in order to legitimize his claim. (I'm thinking of writing a little fanfic story about it! )
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My Fanfic: Letters of Firiel Tales of Nolduryon Visitors Come to Court Ñ á ë ?* ó ú é ä ï ö Ö ñ É Þ ð ß ® ™ [Xurl=Xhttp://entmoot.tolkientrail.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=ABCXYZ#postABCXYZ]text[/Xurl] Splitting Threads is SUCH Hard Work!! Last edited by Valandil : 09-12-2004 at 04:55 PM. |
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09-13-2004, 11:24 AM | #63 | |
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Then Huor spoke and said: "Yet if it stands but a little while, then out of your house shall come the hope of Elves and Men. This I say to you, lord, with the eyes of death: though we part here for ever, and I shall not look on your white walls again, from you and me a new star shall arise. Farewell!" The Silmarillion, Nirnaeth Arnoediad, Page 230 |
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09-14-2004, 12:31 AM | #64 | ||||||||||||||||||||||
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Besides in some families kids are calling parents by name. Quote:
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The son is grown up man, not a baby, which could stand in the way.Arwen might have a change of her heart and sail West. Besides, he died, remember? Quote:
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That ‘s right. Somebody who took the place (a throne) of Chieftain of Dunedainin in the absence of crownless king, and by the custom it should be someone next of kin. Quote:
When things started to turn too dangerous for Aragorn, Elrond made sure that in the grave situation if Aragorn falls, the substitute could be right at hands. The sons of Elrond wii confirm that he indeed the carrier of Isildur’s line and :”The long Life to Halbarad, the King of Gondor and Arnor!”! Quote:
Would you hold it against your man for with whom he had been before you? Quote:
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Elrond does not strike me as being ignorant or completely stupid not to understand that such arrangement is a sure thing to lose the last heir of Isildur. What the point to protect him till puberty and then send on slaying mission where he could be easily killed, as it happened to his father? Such arrangement could be acceptable under only one condition: the line of Isildur can continue by the next of kin. In this light I see no reason to make an exception to Aragorn, and I suspect there was none. He was treated like all others Isildur’s heirs. Quote:
There was no need , period! Quote:
He did not make any promises to Arwen. Actually, I think that he “went into the wild” alone looking for danger particularly because he had no hopes to get Arwen’s hand. Quote:
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09-14-2004, 01:05 AM | #65 |
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Well Olmer, you have not convinced me, but I sure admire you for supporting your case. I guess part of my viewpoint with taking these things more at face value is just the hunch (on my part) that in trying to create new fairy tales and mythologies, that Tolkien's people were idealized. That's why it's not a problem for them to suppress natural urges, etc. In that regard, in fact, all the Kings of Arnor and Arthedain, on up to the chieftains, had very long stretches of time between their births... about 90 years apart at first, down to maybe 60 or 65 years at the end. That's a long time to wait after puberty, but to me there's an inbuilt consistency... and an opportunity to try to believe in an ideal - of goodness, faithfulness - all those other qualities we like to teach to our children.
Oh - and yes, my brothers and I are all heirs of my father, however, if my father were a king, only my older brother would be heir to his throne.
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09-14-2004, 02:17 AM | #66 |
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Or if your brother died the next eldest son would be, by rights, the next heir to your father. Therefore it is a possibility that even the youngest son of a king may become the heir to the throne. Therefore I feel that not only one mad was fostered in Rivendell. Several men, no fewer than two at the least, dwelt in Imladris. Therefore whoever the next in line was he most likely dwelt for a time in Imladris. Aragorn could after all suffer a heart attack, or fall off a cliff, or be killed by orcs in the wild! If aragorn met an untimely death the Dunedain would be in sh1t creek, as would Elrond! So it would be implausible to think thatonly Aragorn was fostered in Rivendell. And absurd to think the the Dunedain had no contact with Aragorn in his youth! Some of the Dunedain must have dwelt in Rivendel even if it was not for a permenant time. Considering that Halbarad is the only mentioned ranger other than Aragorn it would seem that Tolkien wished for him to have some purpose beyond what he had in the books. Most likely the only reason we don't know this information is because of the success of Aragorn, like I said in previous posts it was completely irrelevent that Halbarad was heir following Aragorn because Aragorn survived! However Olmers comment on my previous post made me think that Elrohir and Elladan maybe would not accompany the next in line to become king to a battle where he could perish. That is exactlly what happened too. Halabard died on the fields of the Pelennor, if aragorn had died as well everyone once again would be up sh1t creek! So maybe Halbarad is not directly next in line. Yet I still like to think so cause Halbarad is just that good
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09-14-2004, 02:30 AM | #67 | |
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Well then, in RL I wouldn't, but there I am not an Elf used to Elvish customs. When Aragorn first met Arwen in his 20eth year, she must have recognised his love for her. She even hinted that she liked him too, saying that her fate might become similar to that of Lúthien. All that I know about Elvish customs tells me that she would expect him to remain faithful to her if he planned to marry her later. The Elves simply do not have more than one lover. I think that Arwen knew at once that he would be able to wait for her, and she would not have liked him so much if she didn't see those qualities in him. When Arwen saw Aragorn again in Lórien, he was like en Elf-Lord to look at. In my mind, that means both his physical appearance and his spiritual presence. I am convinced that if he had not been faithful, he would not have appeared to Arwen as noble as an Elf-Lord, and she would not have been betrothed to him. I base this on what I know about the ability of the Elves to read the hearts of humans who were noble enough to have nothing to hide. Lefty, even if the M*riel/Finwë/Indis story would make a precedence, I don't think it is comparable to the case of Arwen/Aragorn. Finwë had not fallen in love with Indis before he married M*riel. A marriage may be lawful, but that doesn't mean that the people involved will accept it.
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09-14-2004, 02:36 AM | #68 | ||
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Then Huor spoke and said: "Yet if it stands but a little while, then out of your house shall come the hope of Elves and Men. This I say to you, lord, with the eyes of death: though we part here for ever, and I shall not look on your white walls again, from you and me a new star shall arise. Farewell!" The Silmarillion, Nirnaeth Arnoediad, Page 230 |
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09-14-2004, 10:37 AM | #69 | |
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An interesting study of somebody going through the process of convincing himself to believe something! EDIT: Hope that doesn't sound too mean... but the post just struck me as sorta funny.
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09-14-2004, 10:39 AM | #70 | |
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09-24-2004, 12:11 AM | #71 | |
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Haha, it's a LotR message board. Entmoot. I talk about LotR, its aentertaining to talk about hypothetical aspects of Tolkien's world. I like to do my best to make as much of a flawless point when making a point.(Guess thats good considering im trying to get into law) I don't take any offense. I make a lot of wold claims in these threads. Im just glad that I don't get flammed in here like other boreds, just for voicing my opinion! So... im not really convincing myself, although if your trying to convince someone else the best way to do it is to think like them and then disprove yourself, im convinsing others to believe what im saying might be true. I mean come on, who wouldnt want Halbarad as their king!?
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04-16-2005, 07:19 AM | #72 |
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I realize I am late in this tread, but as Olmer asked my opinion on the matter, here it is.
First of all I agree entirely with Valandil: [Quote=Valandil]I do not doubt that most chieftains (and earlier kings) had multiple children. However, the line of kingship always went to the oldest son... that's just the way it was. It doesn't mean that any others had any less of Isildur's genetic code than the king... but the one in line to be king held that station. In fact, after 38 or 39 generations, probably a good chunk of the surviving Dunedain were descended in some way from Valandil, Isildur's son (just do the math!). But only the next in line was considered the rightful king, and if something happened to him, there were generally laws of succession to determine who would follow. I wouldn't be surprised if most chieftains and kings had at least 2 or 3 sons... for 'insurance' if nothing else... and they likely had as many daughters as sons, over the course of time. However, I don't think there's any way Arathorn had other children - that would have been significant enough to mention. [\Quote]. I believe that in 3000 years practically ALL the Dunedain of the north could trace their ancestry back to Valandil. The custom even demanded them to intermarry within the royal line, at least not to "mingle with lesser men". So there was a choice of cousins twice, trice etc. removed. I think Olmer is right that the youth of Aragorn in Imladris was typical for Dunedain children, at least closest to the direct line of succession. I believe Erlond proclaimed the next chieftain himself always choosing the rightful one (eldest son of the eldest son of the eldest son...), unless the boy was obviously unfit for the position (Has it ever happened, though?). I believe that every chieftain had a named heir, even before they get married, not a bastard son, of course, but a younger brother or a cousin. Next in the line of succession under the law. When the Chieftain got a LEGETIMATE son, then the latter was proclaimed the Chieftain's heir in preference to a former one (a brother or a cousin). That is exactly as it is done in all royal lines. So I believe Halbarad was Aragorn's heir, otherwise he would not be his next in command.Perhaps he was a cousin or a second cousin, but of course not a bastard son. And yes, if Aragorn died, then Halbarad would have got Anduril and become a new king. If he perished as well, then there will be the next rightful heir. Probably the Gray company included several heirs, knowing their order of succession. And it was not so dangerous for Elrond to send them because many had children raised in Imladris that would survive. As for Aragorn being a virgin.... I really don't know whether any men could reach the elvish ideal of chastity. But I am sure that, unlike elves, Dunedain men had to be married legitimely before siring LEGITIMATE children. The elvish custom : a couple is considered married once they get to bed, will simply not work in a human kingdom, not entirely populated with part-elves. So the question of Aragorn's chastity (though perhaps important for Arwen) had no bearing on the succession of the throne. Do you think that a son of a Prancing Pony chambermaid by Aragorn could seriously claim Arnor's kinship? The most he would ever get is a yearly bag of gold coins from Elrond's treasury. The Dunedain were a proud people and a bastard is a bastard. |
04-16-2005, 10:14 AM | #73 | |
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But any way, I believe that Aragorn, as Thorongil, being near Ecthelion in counsel for 23 years, and getting very high esteem and honor amongst Gondorians, had no problem to find an eligible maiden with Numenorian kings ancestry in her blood. As we know , he had no promises from Elrond of Arwen’s hand, and she did nothing in her turn to assure the dirty-nosed and sleeping under the trees ranger of her love. So, it has been assumed that for 30 years he had no hopes to get married and produce a heir, practicing an abstinence.. According to medical affirmation , the very prolonged practice of self-denial leads to the loss of reproductive abilities. Aragorn’s reproductive functions was not his own business; being the last successor of such hip lineage of Kings, it was HIS DUTY to leave a heir before undertaking dangerous assignments. In 30 years of human life a lot of things might happened. It’s very possible that the mother of his child died and kid has been brought (or sent) lately to Imladris, where he has been brought up amongst other potential successors of Isildur’s line without being announced who he is ( as in case of Aragorn). |
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04-16-2005, 12:12 PM | #74 | ||
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Moreover, if you agree that there were other descendants of Valandil among the dunedain why is it necessary to invent an unlikely story about Halbarad being Aragorn's son? Quote:
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