What would the Balrog have done if the ring had fallen into his hands

[Valandil]

But that 'no other way' refers to the fellowship. The Orcs might have been more capable of traveling through the mountains... or had other tunnels from Moria leading off in all directions!

*ushers Olmer back to his corner*

[Olmer]

Originally Posted by Valandil

The Orcs might have been more capable of traveling through the mountains... or had other tunnels from Moria leading off in all directions!
*ushers Olmer back to his corner*

All right, I agree with you and Earniel, the Orcs might be capable to to travel through the mountains by some known only to them passes.
Let’s look at the situation from this point of view.
(Olmer stoically resisting Valandil’s steady pushing .)
Suppose that orcs did not really know in which way the Group running from the Moria, so they sent the CHASE (we know that it was the chase because later they were saying that they have come all the way from the Mines to avenge ) in two direction: North to the Gladden fields and South, passing Lorien and adjacent to the Elve‘s land Fangorn, which was never too friendly to orcs. So, this is quite a distance to cover scaling the passless mountains.
Then what the purpose to venture on the long treck along the mountains if the “intruders” obviously were running AWAY from the mountains?
If you assuming that the orcs were organizing a systematic search sending a few groups to cover all probable escape areas of Moria’s intruders, then they were not a bunch of aimlessly running morons, and their action to run from Mordor by the tunnels leading Southth should be purposeful. Othervise it looks just the same as if you will yell “Catch the thief!” and run in opposite of the perp’s direction. Absolutely senseless…
So I still stand up by my statement that the orcs were allowed to pass Lothlorien.

[Valandil]

Well... if Lorien WAS a powerful enemy to the orcs of Moria (as the Hobbits, through whom these stories are filtered, seem to believe), it would be prudent to send some of the squads around it rather than through it. Perhaps the one that actually went into Lorien got too excited about being on their trail, threw caution to the wind... and went in anyway, while others were sent to go around...

Just an alternate way to explain some of the things you've picked up on...

[Attalus]

Originally Posted by Valandil

Well... if Lorien WAS a powerful enemy to the orcs of Moria (as the Hobbits, through whom these stories are filtered, seem to believe), it would be prudent to send some of the squads around it rather than through it. Perhaps the one that actually went into Lorien got too excited about being on their trail, threw caution to the wind... and went in anyway, while others were sent to go around...

Just an alternate way to explain some of the things you've picked up on...

I have always taken it that they sent out several parties, perhaps with the 'sniffer orcs' that we encounter in Mordor, to chase down the intruders and avenge the Balrog. I think that they got a 'hot scent,' threw caution to the winds (orcs aren't very cautious, probably by design) and invaded sacrosanct Lothlórien, and died for their temerity. I think that it is a mistake to regard the Narrator as a Hobbit, but more as a Man who had heard the story froim Elves, called Aelfwine in early drafts of the LotR. The Appendices, however, are very much Hobbit-written.

[Earniel]

Originally Posted by Olmer

Finally I got some time to get out of the place you have got me cornered.

I'm glad you tried.

But wouldn't it have been possible that some orc-squads also issued from Moria but choose to go around Lothlorien, perhaps to capture the intruders ont the other side? The one squad that did enter the forest could have served to flush the fugetives out of hiding.

[Olmer]

Originally Posted by Valandil

Well... if Lorien WAS a powerful enemy to the orcs of Moria (as the Hobbits, through whom these stories are filtered, seem to believe), it would be prudent to send some of the squads around it rather than through it.
Just an alternate way to explain some of the things you've picked up on...

But if you will take in account your explanation, the whole arrangement will look even more sinister than just an allowance to pass through the land. If they took the pain to detour Lorien and Fangorn and go straight to Rauros, it means that they KNEW BEFOREHEAD who those strangers are, and in what direction they intended to move and precisely where you have to ambush them.
After all the Fellowship might go on foot through Lorien realm and then the Woldand into Gondor, or, since the aim was Mordor, the most reasonable course should be: to cross Anduin at North or South Undeep and then a straight advance through the deserted Brown lands and Dagorlad.

Originally Posted Eärniel
But wouldn't it have been possible that some orc-squads also issued from Moria but choose to go around Lothlorien, perhaps to capture the intruders ont the other side?

Following your suggestions, the most logical place to catch “flushed out” intruders was at the borders of Lorien kingdom - southern shores of Limlight, or at the Undeeps, the distant and unpopulated northern corner of Rohan, but nevertheless the Moria’s orcs were undertaking hazardous trip through the central Rohan to get to Sarn Gebir just in time to catch on passing by the Fellowship, bound for Rauros.
But why Rauros in the first place? Why the “wise” advised the Fellowship on moving by the river to the point where the straight and relatively safe crossing to Mordor is practically impossible (razor-sharp stones of Emyn Muil and the unpassable Dead Marshes and Wetwang marshes)? After the Rauros more or less suitable places to get to the Ephel Duath was in Denethor‘s domain -close proximity of Minas Tirith.
Besides, you can’t find the better place to trap your enemies: the river ends into the greatest and biggest waterfall, and surrounded by ridged rises of Emyn Muil, which on the east side slopes down in the Dead Marshes and on the west side( the Fellowship was on the west side) a few hills dropping sharply in a cliff- Rohan East Wall.

We know that SS -groups (Sauron-Saruman) came to Parth Galen by the ORDER. I don’t want to talk about their puzzling knowledge of the exact location of the Fellowship’s last bivouac. But we are talking about Moria’s orcs , and their appearance at the Falls of Rauros non the less puzzling also. The puzzle pieces falls in place if you suggest a COOPERATION from the Elves.

[mithrand1r]

Originally Posted by Olmer

Also, I want you to know that my silence was due to serious sickness in the family.

Hope all is better now.

Originally Posted by Olmer

May I ask you WHY did they GO TO RAUROS looking for Elves to “avenge”? Did the Elves dwell there?
The answer is obvious: they was not looking for the Elves, and when they was ambushing company at Sarn Gebir, this Orcs were tried to kill everyone.
They DID NOT have an order to capture the hobbits.They come all the way down with a different agenda.
Then here is arising another question: why all orcs met exactly at Rauros? How did they know that the company will go down the river by boats and won’t take another route? From where the 3 different companies of orcs have got the information where is the best place to ambush the Fellowship?
From those, why advised the company to go to Rauros and provided them with boats - the Lorien’s elves, precisely.

Some thoughts on how/why the orcs could be at Sarn Gebir.

Perhaps Saruman had some information from his Palantir and used that information to direct the orcs.

Perhaps the mordor orcs were in the neighborhood. Maybe Sauron had abother reason for having orcs in the area. (At the moment I cant think of any )
Maybe one of Saurons underlings, a Ringwraith or maybe a spy of modor, was able to get some clue about suspicious activity on the river. Maybe Sauron got the info from Saruman via the palantir.

It could also be Serendipity. If the "good" guys can benefit from serendipity, why can't others benefit from serendipity.

[Forkbeard]

Originally Posted by mithrand1r

Hope all is better now.



Some thoughts on how/why the orcs could be at Sarn Gebir.

Perhaps Saruman had some information from his Palantir and used that information to direct the orcs.

Perhaps the mordor orcs were in the neighborhood. Maybe Sauron had abother reason for having orcs in the area. (At the moment I cant think of any )
Maybe one of Saurons underlings, a Ringwraith or maybe a spy of modor, was able to get some clue about suspicious activity on the river. Maybe Sauron got the info from Saruman via the palantir.

It could also be Serendipity. If the "good" guys can benefit from serendipity, why can't others benefit from serendipity.

Well I think it obvious. Especially after the Moria escapade, Saruman at the very least had an idea about where the Ring would be goiing--to Lothlorien. There is no doubt that orcs on both sides of the river spotted the company and shooting down the Nazgul's mount certainly alerted both Saruman and Sauron of hostiles on the river that should be watched carefully. If they are going downriver, and both Saruman and Sauron would think that the Ring was going to Minas Tirith in the hopes of using it against Sauron, then they had to port their boats around the Falls, and the best place to do that would be Sarn Gebir. So Saruman sends a force of orcs, they meet up with orcs from the mines tracking the company and seeking revenge and the White Handers press them into service. Recognizing the possibility that the Ring might be on the River, but certainly wanting to capture and question the Company Sauron and the Nazgul send a force over the river, and everyone comes crashing together at Sarn Gebir.

I think its just good strategy on the parts of Saruman and Sauron.

[Attalus]

Certainly the Orcs that were shooting at the Fellowship would have reported suspicious activity to their superiors. I do not know of any reason to station Orcs along Anduin except to keep an eye on Lorien. They could easily have been based at Dol Guldur, where Nazgul usually were stationed.

[Forkbeard]

Originally Posted by Attalus

Certainly the Orcs that were shooting at the Fellowship would have reported suspicious activity to their superiors. I do not know of any reason to station Orcs along Anduin except to keep an eye on Lorien. They could easily have been based at Dol Guldur, where Nazgul usually were stationed.

I rather think that all roads were watched...not just those leading in and out of Lothlorien

[Attalus]

Originally Posted by Forkbeard

I rather think that all roads were watched...not just those leading in and out of Lothlorien

All roads? Enough to draw an Orc attack on what might seem an ordinary group of travelers? Hm, maybe in the general vicinity of Moria, since the Balrog's death, if reported, and I think it was, would have alerted the power-that-be that something extremely powerful was in the vicinity.

[Forkbeard]

Originally Posted by Attalus

All roads? Enough to draw an Orc attack on what might seem an ordinary group of travelers? Hm, maybe in the general vicinity of Moria, since the Balrog's death, if reported, and I think it was, would have alerted the power-that-be that something extremely powerful was in the vicinity.

And just where would an ordinary group of travelers be going on the River Anduin between Lothlorien and the sea? Everyone (save Saruman) on the one shore is the enemy of Sauron: Lothlorien, Rohan, Gondor. If they aren't for you, they're against you. Best question them if they're skirting around my border when I'm about to launch a major offensive. Particularly when these ordinary travelers are floating along in Elven boats wearting elven cloaks and shoot down the flying steed of a Nazgul in the dark....indeed I'd want to question those ordinary travelers.

And remember, the Balrog's downfall occurred over a month before. Now, if you were Sauron/Saruman, and you knew that the Balrog of Moria had died (not knowing about Gandalf, and Saruman knew (or we can guess he knew) that Gandalf had company and among them were hobbitses (how else would his orcs have known what to look for at Sarn Gebir?)) and that orcs hadn't done it, but rather a band of interlopers, some of whom escaped. Well, if those interlopers aren't on your side, and were last seen hot footing it toward Lothlorien, where in fact they were tracked to; and a month later a group of Elven cloaked people of various races start floating downriver in Elven boats, wouldn't you think that there might be some connection, and want those chaps stopped and questioned? Particularly when it becomes known that there are halflings in the group?

[Attalus]

Oh, yes, I quite agree with that reasoning.

[Forkbeard]

Originally Posted by Attalus

Oh, yes, I quite agree with that reasoning.

I'm sorry, I thought you were disagreeing....I'm confused. But that's not unusual..eh?

[ItalianLegolas]

i think that the balrog would be to stupid to do anything with the ring, except KILL, KILL, KILL!

[Olmer]

Originally Posted by Forkbeard

Recognizing the possibility that the Ring might be on the River, but certainly wanting to capture and question the Company Sauron and the Nazgul send a force over the river, and everyone comes crashing together at Sarn Gebir.
I think its just good strategy on the parts of Saruman and Sauron.

A GOOD strategy?
Just think about it. According to Gandalf and the Elves Sauron "greatly desires" the Ring and "all his thoughts is bent on it".
Here comes a very definite chance to get the Ring by ambushing the Company, which is, thanks to Nazgul's scouting , certainly carrying the One.
You would do everything possible to insure that the object of yours "great desire" won't slip away from your grasp.
What did Sauron do? He sent 40 orcs. 40! Twice less than Saruman, who also desired the ring.You could say that he ,also, sent a Nazgul.
I like it! To make a wreck in Crickhollow and Bree and cause a panic and fright amidst of hobbit-burghers he sent all the Nine, but when here is a very good chance to get the Ring back, he sent just one Nazgul which was hiding somewere on another shore, faraway from the fight.
Obviously, Sauron was not that interested to get the Ring back. He was just immitating his interest. And Nazgul was neded just for one purpose:to detect who will be the next Ringbearer.

[Manveru]

Originally Posted by Olmer

A GOOD strategy?
Just think about it. According to Gandalf and the Elves Sauron "greatly desires" the Ring and "all his thoughts is bent on it".
Here comes a very definite chance to get the Ring by ambushing the Company, which is, thanks to Nazgul's scouting , certainly carrying the One.
You would do everything possible to insure that the object of yours "great desire" won't slip away from your grasp.
What did Sauron do? He sent 40 orcs. 40! Twice less than Saruman, who also desired the ring.You could say that he ,also, sent a Nazgul.
I like it! To make a wreck in Crickhollow and Bree and cause a panic and fright amidst of hobbit-burghers he sent all the Nine, but when here is a very good chance to get the Ring back, he sent just one Nazgul which was hiding somewere on another shore, faraway from the fight.
Obviously, Sauron was not that interested to get the Ring back. He was just immitating his interest. And Nazgul was neded just for one purpose:to detect who will be the next Ringbearer.

i dont think so, sauron probably didnt have time to send up a bigger force of orcs up there, and the other nazgul were needed for the war, plus what if this group was just a decoy? i dont think he would have been willing to risk sending everything against this one group when he's planning a major war. probably what happened was the nazgul stationed there had been watching the fellowship's movement from the east bank and was planning to ambush them, but since the fellowship can move faster cuz of the boats it was hard to actually do this, then his stead gets shot down, which makes it even worse, and one of the companies he sent for the ambush actually does meet up with the fellowship. there were probably other groups that didnt make it. instead of sending one large group to hunt down 8 camoflaged(sp?) travellers he sent out a bunch of smaller groups. it makes perfect sense since there is more chance of them finding them and a larger army couldve been noticed and avoided easier. plus there were only really 4 good warriors in the group. im sure 40 orcs could be expected to take on 4 warriors, especially if the 4 warriors are split up in the woods and all they have to do is kidnap some halflings and get out of there

[Olmer]

Based on WHAT text you can back up your suggestion?

[Forkbeard]

Originally Posted by Olmer

A GOOD strategy?
Just think about it. According to Gandalf and the Elves Sauron "greatly desires" the Ring and "all his thoughts is bent on it".
Here comes a very definite chance to get the Ring by ambushing the Company, which is, thanks to Nazgul's scouting , certainly carrying the One.
You would do everything possible to insure that the object of yours "great desire" won't slip away from your grasp.
What did Sauron do? He sent 40 orcs. 40! Twice less than Saruman, who also desired the ring.You could say that he ,also, sent a Nazgul.
I like it! To make a wreck in Crickhollow and Bree and cause a panic and fright amidst of hobbit-burghers he sent all the Nine, but when here is a very good chance to get the Ring back, he sent just one Nazgul which was hiding somewere on another shore, faraway from the fight.
Obviously, Sauron was not that interested to get the Ring back. He was just immitating his interest. And Nazgul was neded just for one purpose:to detect who will be the next Ringbearer.

Hi Olmer,
Yes, I'll defend my position that I think this was good strategy. First, how do you know that Sauron KNOWS that he has a chance to get the Ring? The Nazgul? That's problematic. Nazgul are certainly a lot closer to the Ring and Frodo on previous and subsequent occasions than the one flying over the river that Legolas shoots down. The Nazgul had many opportunities to seize the Ring since they were in close proximity and should have sensed it, but don't seem to. I think its too much to expect that the Nazgul sensed the Ring as it was flying high above the river. Would Sauron know through the Palantir? Probably not. The Palantir don't see through clothes. He may have discerned once he became aware of the party on the river that there were 8 hostiles consisting of 2 men, 1 elf, 1 dwarf, and 4 little people that must be halflings who may or may not have anything to do with the Ring, but undoubtedly would be wanted for questioning and enslavement later. So how would he KNOW that the Ring was on the river? He might suspect, but how would he know?

Second problem is one of logistics. To cross a river, one needs boats, a ford, a ferry, or a bridge. We know that no ford, ferry, or bridge existed at that point on the river or for some distance either direction. So this leaves boats. Orcs are not known for being particularly adept at boating. And unlike further down the river, there don't seem to have been any plans to invade Rohan that far north, all the boats and preparations for crossing the river seem to have been concentrated at Osgilliath, and from there forces went north to block the road from Rohan to Minas Tirith. So they need either to make boats quickly, limiting the number of troops to send across. Or they need to port materials up or down from the work sites preparing for river crossings at Osgilliath or against Lorien, again taking time and effort...to be done quickly, it means limiting the size of the troop.

On the other hand, there is Sauron's ally Saruman who is intended to draw off Rohan. But it is too soon to play that hand. So Sauron has Saruman send a force too, who meet up with a group of avengers from Moria. They high tail it across Rohan, Wormtongue influencing the king not to do anything about it. So between the forces coming from the west and those coming from the East, it shouldn't be a big deal for some 120 orcs to kill 4 warriors and kidnap four halflings.

As for the Nazgul, again, they had not been openly used in Gondor or Rohan or Lorien yet, they were yet disguised and visible only in the background. It is only us as Readers and the Fellowship plus Elrond and Galadriel who know that the 9 are abroad before war is on them. So, again, unless Sauron wants to tip his hand too soon, he doesn't want to reveal openly the Nazgul, unless he knows for certain that the Ring is with the Fellowship...and he doesn't. He can only suspect it or suspect that they have information about it.

So I think it good strategy and not a feint at all.

[Manveru]

i agree, also sauron isnt playing an RTS game on his computer, it takes a long time for orders to go down the line and so to plan an attack so far away from barad-dur would be hard to do quickly