Ilúvatar good & evil

[Rían]

It's 5 posts up from yours, but I'll repeat it here for your convenience

5 posts up from Arty's post, I said:
And then, further down, "it came into the heart of Melkor to interweave matters of his own imagining that were not in accord with the theme of Iluvatar, for he sought therein to increase the power and glory of the part assigned to himself." And the result of this? "discord arose about him, and many that sang nigh him grew despondent, and their thought was disturbed and their music faltered...

you said:

And even if Melkor did try to increase his own glory by altering the Great Music, can that be called evil? I don't think so, not unless the intention is to bring forth something bad, and there's no indication that that's what Melkor had in mind at this point.

Perhaps when he first started, his intent wasn't evil, but I think the fact that those around him "grew despondent" and he didn't stop shows great evil on Melkor's part

Maybe it's an English-language thing; but to me, the way it's worded, the "increase the power and glory" sentence shows that Melkor's intent was selfish ambition, and not an innocent thing at all.

[brownjenkins]

Originally posted by RÃ*an
Perhaps when he first started, his intent wasn't evil, but I think the fact that those around him "grew despondent" and he didn't stop shows great evil on Melkor's part

Maybe it's an English-language thing; but to me, the way it's worded, the "increase the power and glory" sentence shows that Melkor's intent was selfish ambition, and not an innocent thing at all.

so the bottom line is: some people are good and some people are evil... and, due to free will, there's really not much the creator can do about it one way or another?

[Artanis]

Originally posted by RÃ*an
Maybe it's an English-language thing; but to me, the way it's worded, the "increase the power and glory" sentence shows that Melkor's intent was selfish ambition, and not an innocent thing at all.

I don't think it's a language thing, I think we differ on what may be called evil.

[Rían]

Originally posted by Artanis
I don't think it's a language thing, I think we differ on what may be called evil.

But don't you think that if you "increase the power and glory" to yourself by hurting others, that it's evil?

by brownjenkins
so the bottom line is: some people are good and some people are evil... and, due to free will, there's really not much the creator can do about it one way or another?

No, not quite ... let's see if I can express my thoughts here *muses a bit* ...

There is indeed a LOT the Creator CAN do about it, and a fair amount that He WILL do about it - everything but force people to love Him, which He will not do.

OK (in terms of Christianity, which seems to parallel what we see in ME) - first, free will is a gift - and even now, free will is bounded, or limited, by the Creator - IOW, it's not unlimited. I can set out to murder someone, and God could stop me by, say, a car accident ... altho it's obvious that many murders are allowed at this time This concept of limited free will for humans is v. well illustrated in the book of Job, where Satan can only do what God gives him permission to do (we also see it in Middle Earth - the Valar intervene at times, and Iluvatar Himself intervenes, too, tho rarely at this point on the timeline - but more than is shown, as illustrated by Gandalf's comment about Bilbo finding the Ring). Even those in rebellion against God, like Satan, are not free to do whatever they want; their freedom is still bounded, because the simple fact is that it is the TRUTH that they are created beings, and thus are subject to God, whether they like it or not - just saying something is false doesn't make it so, if it is indeed true.

But the most important concept, I think, is that God's heart is not to have a bunch of people following His rules; God's heart is love for His creation, and relationship with His creation, and as anyone knows, forced "love" is not love - love in relationship can only exist with free will - which also puts into existence the possibility of evil, and of rejection of love. We also see this illustrated with how Iluvatar relates to the Valar, esp. that scene with Aule. But the limited freedom of people to choose evil will eventually be taken away - the final choice of those who reject the truth of the state of things will be to choose to enter Hell, over entering Heaven. The Bible says, and it makes sense, that God delays final judgement in order to give people all the time possible to come to Him. And this makes sense - I know that I would willingly endure a lot of evil if it helped anyone come to God, because my time here is only for a short while - followed by an eternity of joy. Also, pain is allowed because it often shocks people out of their false complacency, and gets them to reflect in ways that they normally wouldn't, and hopefully turn to God.

It's just a simple matter of truth - if it is indeed true (which I think it is, based on a ton of evidence ) that the Bible records the true state of things, then Hell is indeed the choice that people that hate God or deny Him will choose over being in Heaven, because Heaven is a place where God's glory is mind-blowingly evident, and those who love God will rejoice and be in everlasting joy there - and for those who deny or hate God, it would be a horrible place - they would prefer Hell. Hell, as I think I've said before, is a place that God had to make in order to honor the free will that He's given to men that use it to reject Him

[Artanis]

Originally posted by RÃ*an
But don't you think that if you "increase the power and glory" to yourself by hurting others, that it's evil?

Yes, if the hurting is intentional, but did Melkor hurt someone or wish to hurt someone at the point where the Great Music were made? He rebelled, he was ambitious and obstinate, but did he wish to destroy or do harm? I don't think so, I think at that point he just wanted to create.

But the most important concept, I think, is that God's heart is not to have a bunch of people following His rules; God's heart is love for His creation, and relationship with His creation, and as anyone knows, forced "love" is not love - love in relationship can only exist with free will - which also puts into existence the possibility of evil, and of rejection of love.

I like that RÃ*an. Forced love is not love. Very true indeed.

[Rían]

Originally posted by Artanis
Yes, if the hurting is intentional, but did Melkor hurt someone or wish to hurt someone at the point where the Great Music were made? He rebelled, he was ambitious and obstinate, but did he wish to destroy or do harm? I don't think so, I think at that point he just wanted to create.

It seems to me that it was intentional, because I think he must have noticed when his actions made those around him grow "despondent". Not intentional to the point of "I want to make them despondent!", but intentional to the point of "I want MY own way, and I don't care if those around me grow despondent!"

I like that RÃ*an. Forced love is not love. Very true indeed.

thanks

[brownjenkins]

interesting concepts RÃ*an... but it doesn't quite address my question... is the creator responsible for guiding his creations to the path of good or are they just supposed to "figure it out"?

[Rían]

Originally posted by brownjenkins
interesting concepts RÃ*an... but it doesn't quite address my question... is the creator responsible for guiding his creations to the path of good or are they just supposed to "figure it out"?

Oh, but that's a different question (at least to me) than your "there's really not much the creator can do about it one way or another?".

But to answer the "guiding" question - I would say He is certainly responsible to guide, and we see Him do this, but He has chosen to only guide, and not force - IOW, informed free will, I guess you could call it.

[brownjenkins]

Originally posted by RÃ*an
Oh, but that's a different question (at least to me) than your "there's really not much the creator can do about it one way or another?".

But to answer the "guiding" question - I would say He is certainly responsible to guide, and we see Him do this, but He has chosen to only guide, and not force - IOW, informed free will, I guess you could call it.

this basically goes back to my original point... there seemed to be somewhat of a lack of informing and/or guiding on eru's part

which is why i tend towards the "creator as an observer" theory... rarely interfering in affairs of his creation... even the instances in LoTR could be attributed to the valar as opposed to eru... off the top of my head, the only outright interference i can think of is the downfall of numenor... which involved a tampering with the gift of mankind

[Rían]

IMO, it's not a "tampering". I think you misunderstand the scope of the gift - as I said before, I would call it "limited" or "bounded" free will. But that's only MHO And I guess we also disagree on the amount of "guiding".

[Fat middle]

Originally posted by brownjenkins
this basically goes back to my original point... there seemed to be somewhat of a lack of informing and/or guiding on eru's part

which is why i tend towards the "creator as an observer" theory... rarely interfering in affairs of his creation... even the instances in LoTR could be attributed to the valar as opposed to eru... off the top of my head, the only outright interference i can think of is the downfall of numenor... which involved a tampering with the gift of mankind

Well, Eru certainly "interferes" with Aulë's making of dwarves. And also he acts after Yavanna's petition of help for her creatures.

[brownjenkins]

Originally posted by Fat middle
Well, Eru certainly "interferes" with Aulë's making of dwarves. And also he acts after Yavanna's petition of help for her creatures.

good point... however, in both of these instances (as in the numenor one) eru seems to be acting to preserve his vision of what "life" should be for his various creations... none of them really reflect any sort of morality... at best they say, only i can create life... they don't really touch upon how one should live their life... which seems to resemble the pagan belief systems of ancient mankind, more than the later monotheistic ones

[Rían]

Remember that the more specific rules were not given until the time of Moses. But the basic "rules of morality" are put into every person's heart, acc'd to the Bible (and validated by what we observe).

And any rebellion against Iluvatar is "sin" - not because Iluvatar has an ego problem, but because if Iluvatar is entirely good, than any deviation from Iluvatar is necessarily evil. And any denial of truth, which is entirely contained in Iluvatar, is also evil. And "I will be Iluvatar" falls into both the former and latter category; it is simply not TRUE that Melkor could EVER be God, and it is a deviation from Iluvatar's creation (in the sense that it is a denial of Melkor's very being) for Melkor to try.

[brownjenkins]

Originally posted by RÃ*an
Remember that the more specific rules were not given until the time of Moses. But the basic "rules of morality" are put into every person's heart, acc'd to the Bible (and validated by what we observe).

And any rebellion against Iluvatar is "sin" - not because Iluvatar has an ego problem, but because if Iluvatar is entirely good, than any deviation from Iluvatar is necessarily evil. And any denial of truth, which is entirely contained in Iluvatar, is also evil. And "I will be Iluvatar" falls into both the former and latter category; it is simply not TRUE that Melkor could EVER be God, and it is a deviation from Iluvatar's creation (in the sense that it is a denial of Melkor's very being) for Melkor to try.

since the last thing we need is another religion thread i probably shouldn't touch the first part, but i can help it

the idea of "rules of morality" being put into each person's heart kind of contradicts the "free will" idea... and even if you do buy it, then why the need for more specific rules later?

on the rest, i think you are putting a good bit more christianity into eru than even tolkien, a christian, did... eru does not call melkor evil, or accuse him of sin... in fact, he basically says that melkor's deviations are part of the plan, and in some ways even add to it... eru could very easily have chosen to not let melkor enter arda, but he did not

[Valandil]

Originally posted by brownjenkins
since the last thing we need is another religion thread i probably shouldn't touch the first part, but i can help it

the idea of "rules of morality" being put into each person's heart kind of contradicts the "free will" idea... and even if you do buy it, then why the need for more specific rules later?

on the rest, i think you are putting a good bit more christianity into eru than even tolkien, a christian, did... eru does not call melkor evil, or accuse him of sin... in fact, he basically says that melkor's deviations are part of the plan, and in some ways even add to it... eru could very easily have chosen to not let melkor enter arda, but he did not

*Valandil 'tags' Rian and leaps into the Ring*

Just because the rules are put on a person's heart does not mean they must follow them... just that they will have a pretty good idea when they are not doing so - though they may still choose not to do so. Continually going against those rules written on one's heart has a 'hardening' effect - such that each subsequent action against those rules causes less and less distress for the person doing so... eventually, maybe even less and less awareness that they ARE doing wrong.

Also - I don't think Rian's Eru is any more Christian than Tolkien's and I disagree with some of your last paragraph. Eru did NOT plan on Melkor's deviations - but he was able to subvert Melkor's deviations in such a way that they worked INTO his plan - which was certainly not what Melkor had intended (prob frustrated him to no end!). That's identical to the Christian view of God working evil into good. Also - it was not Melkor's deviations that enhance the plan - but Eru's dealing with Melkor's deviations (big difference).

For a greater discussion of the Christian view of the nature of sin, free will, law, etc - I could go on and on... but you'd be better off to just read the Book of Romans... get a nice, readable modern translation... double-dare ya!

*Valandil extends hand back toward corner, hoping for a 'tag' from Rian (before he gets pulverized!) *

[Fat middle]

Originally posted by Valandil
[B]Eru did NOT plan on Melkor's deviations - but he was able to subvert Melkor's deviations in such a way that they worked INTO his plan - which was certainly not what Melkor had intended (prob frustrated him to no end!). That's identical to the Christian view of God working evil into good. Also - it was not Melkor's deviations that enhance the plan - but Eru's dealing with Melkor's deviations (big difference).

I cannot agree more.

Eru "having a plan" (or rules) a running things into it is not opposed to the free will of his creatures. They may fall in evil or not, but that is mainly a problem to them, not to Eru's plan (which would be accomplished sooner or later).

I posted above something that may be related to this:

Originally said by Fat middle:
While playing the music that Eru had designed, they chose (free will) to play their appointed role or not. Some of them are more or less conscious of their own disagreement (Melkor) and some not.

Conscious disagreement leads to moral evil. Unconscious disagreement (the Valar summoning the elves, perhaps) leads only to "physical" evil.

Sorry for auto-quoting

Both moral and physical evil would perhaps interfere with Eru's plan, but only making it to take a new path to finally being accomplished.

[Radagast The Brown]

Originally posted by RÃ*an


OK (in terms of Christianity, which seems to parallel what we see in ME) - first, free will is a gift - and even now, free will is bounded, or limited, by the Creator - IOW, it's not unlimited. I can set out to murder someone, and God could stop me by, say, a car accident ... altho it's obvious that many murders are allowed at this time This concept of limited free will for humans is v. well illustrated in the book of Job, where Satan can only do what God gives him permission to do (we also see it in Middle Earth - the Valar intervene at times, and Iluvatar Himself intervenes, too, tho rarely at this point on the timeline - but more than is shown, as illustrated by Gandalf's comment about Bilbo finding the Ring). Even those in rebellion against God, like Satan, are not free to do whatever they want; their freedom is still bounded, because the simple fact is that it is the TRUTH that they are created beings, and thus are subject to God, whether they like it or not - just saying something is false doesn't make it so, if it is indeed true.

Hmmmm.
Well... Judaism is different then, in the free-will idea. Or that one of us is wrong.

From what I know - God has created the world as it is with free will for the men - he could choose to create it without it. I can't rmember though why...

Anyway, the idea of free-will is, that the men can do whatever they choose. But not exactly:
1. To people that make good action will be given 'presents' - wealth, wisdom, luck, to live until long age, etc.
2. Those who sin get punished.
So God doesn't stop people before their bad actions - but afterwards, punish them.

And thoguh there is Satan in the Bible, it is mentioned only in one book. And I haven't learnt it yet... I'm not sure what the Satan is.

And, also, in the bible Hell is not mentioned. I think dead people go to Eden Garden... I'm not sure.

[Rían]

Originally posted by Valandil
*Valandil 'tags' Rian and leaps into the Ring*

*RÃ*an plops down on the floor out of breath*

by Val
Just because the rules are put on a person's heart does not mean they must follow them... just that they will have a pretty good idea when they are not doing so - though they may still choose not to do so.

Absatootely.

by Val
Eru did NOT plan on Melkor's deviations - but he was able to subvert Melkor's deviations in such a way that they worked INTO his plan - which was certainly not what Melkor had intended (prob frustrated him to no end!). That's identical to the Christian view of God working evil into good. Also - it was not Melkor's deviations that enhance the plan - but Eru's dealing with Melkor's deviations (big difference).

I like how you worded that, esp. the last sentence.

by FM
Both moral and physical evil would perhaps interfere with Eru's plan, but only making it to take a new path to finally being accomplished.

I like the "new path" picture.

*RÃ*an jumps back in, but doesn't tag Val out, because she likes his company!*

JRRT may not have "recorded" Eru saying the words "Melkor, dude, you're evil", but I don't see how you could think Eru doesn't think Melkor is evil It's pretty evident in parts like where he is talking to Ulmo about the "bitter cold" that Melkor made, and things like that. JRRT is v. clear about Melkor being evil - esp. in parts like in Valaquenta: of the Enemies.

[brownjenkins]

as far as the big picture goes... i like to think that morality is self-evident... no need for any mystical heart implantations... if the rules don't work in the real world, ultimately they will not be followed, or at least not sincerely anyway

the moral path can be found just by living life... morality is not a means to an end, but an end in itself

on the melkor issue... i think he was a part of eru's plan... when the music was laid out, so was the history of arda... and, while no single ainu might comprehend it all, one gets the feeling that eru did... not only that, but melkor and every other ainu knew eru did... just because eru gave his creations free will does not mean that his understanding is not vast enough to forsee what this free will would lead to

he chose to create melkor in the first place, and to also allow him to enter and remain in arda, in spite of all that melkor did and what was to come

on the christianity bit... i think everyone has a right to read whatever they please into a literary piece (me too )... especially one as grand as tolkien's... but i don't think it was just an oversight on jrrt's part that the "christian" elements that existed in the early "lost tales" (i.e. a segmented afterlife that split the good and the evil) was dropped in later revisions

you can read between the lines as you like, but i notice a marked lack of anything to do with sin, judgement or redemption as far as eru's character goes

[Rían]

Originally posted by brownjenkins
... if the rules don't work in the real world, ultimately they will not be followed, or at least not sincerely anyway

So if ... oh, nevermind, this belongs in the religion thread - don't want to get too far OT.

... morality is not a means to an end, but an end in itself

What a depressing thought! Glad it's not true.

you can read between the lines as you like, but i notice a marked lack of anything to do with sin, judgement or redemption as far as eru's character goes

Yes, I agree there's not much.

Tag, I'm out! I'll be out of town for a few days - bye!