How to take a Ring from an unwilling Ring-wielder? - crazy ideas

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by Landroval

Tolkien used the word "compared to"; plus the nazgul aren't savage people, at least not in the direct sense of the word. Moreover, the fictitious event you are reffering to is much further in time, when Frodo is far greater - as I pointed to Olmer previously.

One can be a cultured man but a savage warrior. I don't think anyone would think "savage" here was meant literally. The Quotes ARE conflicting all the same.
As for "further in time, it is so, but the nazgul saw this particular hobbit for the first time in their lives. They couldn't know how strong he could prove to be. They didn't expect resistance at all, when they advanced, then the hobbit puts on the Ring - still an object of terror to the Nazgul, now or several months further (what is the difference?) , draws the anti-nazgul blade the likes of which has not been seen for 1500 years and that the Barrow-wights guarded. Sure the nazgul were dismayed swiftly coming from under-estimation of Frodo to over-estimation of him.

Originally Posted by Landroval

And, even if true, this is relevant to your theory - how? Not to mention that Goldberry was expecting the hobbits and received news about them .

Very relevant. IF the nazgul knew a Barrow was plundered and the Wight sent away, they didn't think of the weak hobbits and peaceful Bombadil, but of the meddling Maia Gandalf who they knew was around looking for the hobbits. They thought it was Gandalf who had the blades, and they scared Gandalf away before he met the hobbits. Then when they saw the BD blade in Frodo's hand, they understood it was not Gandalf, but the hobbits with the Ring.
And how on earth is Goldberry relevant here?

Gordis: And Aragorn said "pierce" not "wound". I see no contradiction to my idea.
Landroval: I see; so if one gets stabbed, that doesn't qualify as a wound?

I cut my hand with a six inch-long kitchen knife. Pierced the skin, drew some blood. Had I got all the length of it in my body, I would have been dead. But it only pierced the skin, then stopped. - Could it be called a "wound"? I think, yes. - Is it as bad a wound that can be inflicted by the same knife if it went all the way in? Not really.

The shattering of the blades at the first "piercing" of the skin, assures a certain immunity, does it not? The nazgul get a superficial wound, then the blade perishes.

Originally Posted by Landroval

I am afraid that since no one seems to complain about it, you raised a false dillema. Not to mention that it would still come handy if your enemy's sword perishes - after all, not all first wounds are lethal.

Then you suppose that the spell assuring certain immunity to the nazgul (they can't be killed by arrows, said Gandalf) is a different spell from the one that shatters the blades used on them? I say, that was the SAME spell You stipulate the presence of two spells instead of one.. Don't forget Occam's razor, Landroval.

Gordis: Initially Gandalf would use the Ring to do good.
Landroval: Not for long, if you ask me; and Frodo's independence would last even less, seeing that we are comparing a maia with a secondborn; but I will conceed we are merely speculating.

It is irrelevant for how long here. To the nazgul's knowledge, even if Frodo DID use the Ring against the Wight, he didn't use it too many times to be unable to pronounce the name of Elbereth.

Originally Posted by Landroval

I see; so neither the mouth knew about how just deadly that sword is, plus he is foolish, even though his name/action/ranks qualify him as their highest 'diplomat' around, so to speak . So much ignorance on all sides...

I explained the reason for their ignorance in my previous post and explain it again below. If you want to argue, please, refer to the reasons I gave, not sneer at the conclusion.
As for the Mouth being "foolish", it was not a smart thing to allow Gandalf to take the sword from him unhindered. The only explanation for this utter foolishness was that he didn't know what an unique thing it was.

Originally Posted by Landroval

It depends on where the wound occured, strenght, shock, etc..

Not an answer . It could be said of any blade.

Gordis: But only the runes on the blade gave away the nature of the spell laid on them
Landroval: Hm, can you quote a text concerning the runes on the blades?

No, I can't. And that is great you noticed it, Landroval! There were NO RUNES visible on the Barrow blades:

For each of the hobbits he chose a dagger, long, leaf-shaped, and keen, of marvellous workmanship, damasked with serpent-forms in red and gold. They gleamed as he drew them from their black sheaths, wrought of some strange metal, light and strong, and set with many fiery stones. Whether by some virtue in these sheaths or because of the spell that lay on the mound, the blades seemed untouched by time, unrusted, sharp, glittering in the sun.

Now, for enspelling things, runes of Power were normally used:

Eärendil was a mariner...
.
In panoply of ancient kings,
in chainéd rings he armoured him;
his shining shield was scored with runes
to ward all wounds and harm from him

Here you see that RUNES were used for a spell to ward all wounds and harm.

The Sword of Elendil was forged anew by Elvish smiths, and on its blade was traced a device of seven stars set between the crescent Moon and the rayed Sun, and about them was written many runes; for Aragorn son of Arathorn was going to war upon the marches of Mordor.

Here we again see runes used in the same way, either for the bane of Mordor, or just for protection, or for both.

The Dwarves also used runes of Power

With golden roof and silver floor,
And runes of power upon the door.

The Rohirrim also used spell-runes:

Then Éowyn gave to Merry an ancient horn, small but cunningly wrought all of fair silver with a baldric of green; and wrights had engraven upon it swift horsemen riding in a line that wound about it from the tip to the mouth; and there were set runes of great virtue.

Even think of the Ring. Only those who could READ the RUNES on it knew what exactly was the Rings magic. Gandalf couldn't tell WHICH ring it was BEFORE he read the spell - inscription on it "One Ring to rule them all and in the Darkness bind them."

So before one deciphers the runes and understands the nature of the spell, there is no way one could know WHAT spell it was. It could have been anything... But when there were NO RUNES to read on the Barrow-blades, or maybe only invisible runes, that one can see only in the Spirit World, how could the spell be understood? Workmanship was Arnorian, that was ALL that an EXPERT such as Aragorn or Denethor or the Mouth could see!

Can you prove that Aragorn know about them later?
You're joking, right?

Not at all. Can you prove that Aragorn knew WHAT spell was on the blades before the Witch-King was stabbed?
I can prove that he mistakenly thought it to be a general "anti-Mordor" spell.

I am not arguing these were anti-nazgul, only that the orcs feared them - apparently, more than the nazguls do.

Wrong. The Witch-King wouldn't have left such swords lying around unguarded for all to find. Orcs did. Who feared the blades more?

Gordis: Note that the Mouth of Sauron and probably Sauron himself were equally mistaken, it seems.
Landroval: Yea, can you believe it??
I find that hypothesis to be absurd.

Thank-you -very-much. So kind of you.

I say I am sure that Mouth was unable to recognize the blades unless Sauron or a nazgul told him.
As for Sauron, I said "probably". He had too much on his mind to peer at all the blades captured by his orcs.

Gordis: Even (the ressurected Elves's) position in space was at will", the super-powerful magical dudes
Landroval: Would you be so kind as to provide that quote?

Notes following the Appendix to Athrabeth Finrod Ah Andreth: The resurrection of the body (at least as far as Elves were concerned) was in a sense incorporeal. But while it could pass physical barriers at will, it could at will oppose a barrier to matter. If you touched a resurrected body you felt it. Or if it willed it could simply elude you - disappear. Its position in space was at will.

Compare it with the LORT quote:

Those who have dwelt in the Blessed Realm live at once in both worlds, and against both the Seen and the Unseen they have great power

Originally Posted by Landroval

Oh, your sweetheart? (Gosh, I remember how good it was teasing girls.)

So you have NO arguments.

Originally Posted by Landroval

Gordis, though I left your other (good) points, unaddressed, they are irrelevant as long as the main issue I raised previously is left standing: the nazguls underestimated Frodo at Wheathertop, not the other way around.

Well, I happily announce that now I have found proof for my hypothesis.

I was looking for proof since I posted my theory and I found it finally in a book that I don't have and that I didn't ever read: "Hammond and Scull, LOTR Readers Companion"

About a month ago, in another thread Roccondil, one of the best Tolkien scholars I know, has pointed to me the existence of this rather recently published book containing TOLKIEN'S OWN, previously unpublished NOTES. I have tracked Roccondil on other forums and I have found the proof for my (and Alcuin's - because Alcuin was the first to consider the Wight's problem) theory in this thread on theonering.net:

http://forums.theonering.com/viewtop...er=asc&start=0

Tolkien has considered the Weathertop situation and made such comments:

Tolkien wrote:

… the Witch-King, the great captain, was actually dismayed. He had been shaken by the fire of Gandalf, and began to perceive that the mission on which Sauron had sent him was one of great peril to himself both by the way and on his return to his Master (if unsuccessful); and he had been doing ill, so far achieving nothing save rousing the power of the Wise and directing them to the Ring. But above all the timid and terrified Bearer had resisted him, had dared to strike at him with an enchanted sword made by his own enemies long ago for his destruction. Narrowly it had missed him. How he had come by it – save in the Barrows of Cardolan. Then he was in some way mightier than the Barrow-wight; and he called on Elbereth, a name of terror to the Nazgûl. He was then in league with the High Elves of the Havens.

Escaping from a wound that would have been as deadly to him as the Mordor-knife to Frodo (as was proved in the end), he withdrew and hid for a while, out of doubt and fear both of Aragorn and especially of Frodo. But fear of Sauron…. was the stronger.

Oct 7. He arose and cried out to his companions, and drew the other four back to him. He then patrols the road to the Bridge of Mitheithel, knowing that it was practically impossible to cross the Greyflood between Tharbad and the Bridge. The Nazgûl search in vain for the Bearer while Aragorn leads Frodo in the pathless lands south of the Road.

Hammond and Scull, Readers Companion notes to p. 208

The nazgul DID recognize the blades, DID associate them with the destruction of the Wight and WERE afraid of Frodo. Now it is irrefutable.

On the Minas Tirith forum my "opponent" has deleted the whole thread once he saw this post. All my posts and Alcuin's are now gone. Some cowards just hate to be proven wrong. Here I hope it will only provide us with more things to discuss.

[CAB]

I don’t think that there is really anything left to discuss. That quote is almost completely true to your theory, point by point. The only thing I see lacking is the Witch King’s assumption that Frodo got his (apparent) strength from the Ring, but even that could be (probably, should be) implied. Congratulations Gordis.

[jammi567]

Hellow all. comparitivly late to join in the discussion, but have been keeping up with it. anyways, i wish to present you with a quote that no-one seems to have noticed. frodo has been captured by the wights, and is about to defeat it.

Originally Posted by Fog on the barrow-downs

With what strength he had he [Frodo] hewed at the crawling arm near the wrist, and the hand broke off; but at the same moment, the sword splintered up to the hilt. There was a shriek and the light vanished. In the dark there was a snarling noise.

In my personal opinion, i believe that Frodo picked up a sword that was the same type that Tom later gave (i.e. anti-evil blades). Merry's sword, when he stabs the Witch king, does excactly the same thing. Therefore, in my mind at least, this proves that both the wights and the nazgul are able to have physical bodies held together by magic, but when the blade pierced them, the magic of the blades distroyed the magic holding the bodies together. This is why i think the nazgul were cautious of Frodo on Weathertop.

[Butterbeer]

Yes I wholly fail to see that. Where is the metaphor?

you are joking right????

best BB

[Landroval]

I don't think anyone would think "savage" here was meant literally.

We have such different undestanding of what a metaphor is, that I will stop here.

then the hobbit puts on the Ring

Under their command

what is the difference?

Frodo is far greater

And how on earth is Goldberry relevant here?

Well, I would have speculated that her keeping in touch with the good guys wouldnt go unnoticed. But that is not relevant anymore.

Pierced the skin, drew some blood.

I won 't nickpick on what a wound is either.

You stipulate the presence of two spells instead of one

Resistance due to armor was my point, not due to magic.

But when there were NO RUNES to read on the Barrow-blades, or maybe only invisible runes, that one can see only in the Spirit World, how could the spell be understood?

Runes are not prerequisite to endowing objects with magic, if that is what you imply. As far as I know, there were no runes on the silmarils, palantirs or elven rings

Can you prove that Aragorn knew WHAT spell was on the blades before the Witch-King was stabbed?

No, I can't. But your theory implies that sometime in the future he got to know, which I find unlikely.

He had too much on his mind to peer at all the blades captured by his orcs.

Only that on this case, he requested immediate and exclusive information on such events.

Notes following the Appendix to Athrabeth Finrod Ah Andreth:

Grrr, where are my books.. good quote anyway.

But above all the timid and terrified Bearer had resisted him, had dared to strike at him

The nazguls underestimated him before his attack, that was my point. It is also evident that they didn't know about the blade than after the wheatertop, (the opposite was part of your supposition, IIRC). Congrats on your quote anyway, it spoiled my day

Escaping from a wound that would have been as deadly to him as the Mordor-knife to Frodo (as was proved in the end),

I will note that this doesnt exclude that other weapons can't harm the nazgul, seeing that both Fingolfin and Thorondor harmed Melkor, (and the same can be said of Sauron the necromancer being overthrown by Elendil and Gil-Galad) - the nazgul being vastly inferior to both these masters of them.

The only thing I see lacking is the Witch King’s assumption that Frodo got his (apparent) strength from the Ring, but even that could be (probably, should be) implied.

Seeing that they are capable of commanding him both here and at the Ford, and not the other way around, I will argue the contrary is true.

[jammi567]

er, hello, anyone going to look at my post.

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by CAB

I don’t think that there is really anything left to discuss. That quote is almost completely true to your theory, point by point. The only thing I see lacking is the Witch King’s assumption that Frodo got his (apparent) strength from the Ring, but even that could be (probably, should be) implied. Congratulations Gordis.

Thanks, CAB.
No there is still a lot to discuss, I think. We don't have the answer whether the nazgul knew about Tom. We don't know whether they knew about the Wight destruction before Weathertop - though it seems not, after all. The quote doesn't say whether Aragorn, Gandalf etc. recognized the swords. And there is an additional element, not really discussed before: the nazgul believed that Frodo was somehow associated with High Elves.

And another matter: the nazgul here seem so very HUMAN in mind, not some zombie-like creatures implied by UT quotes "had no will of their own", "utterly subservient" etc. They had their own good and bad moments, their own fears and doubts, different from Sauron's. Also, the quote says that the only thing that made the Witch-King act was his fear of Sauron. NOT the desire to get the Ring for his master. Whatever the UT may say, they were motivated in exactly the same way as all the servants of Mordor.

Also, we learned the reason why the nazgul didn't attack again - not that they were busy preparing spells to shatter the sword, but they were simply too dismayed. The WK went away from the others (isn't it very human not to wish your underlings to see your bad moments?), while the others were more bothered with what happened with their Captain, that with the hobbits. That is how the company of the ringbearer slipped away on the early morning of 7.

Also, from the quote in Reader's Companion, it seems very probable that the spells on the sword were NOT against all the nazgul, but against the WK alone. Have you also got this impression?

Originally Posted by Landroval

Then the hobbit puts on the Ring. - Under their command

Seeing that they are capable of commanding him both here and at the Ford, and not the other way around,

We have addressed this before. Now, would the nazgul be so afraid of Frodo, if he had just obeyed THEIR COMMAND to put on the Ring? Why couldn't they command him to drop his blade and follow them nicely to discuss some legal issues of the Ring's rightful ownership?
To me the new quote is another proof that they DIDN't and COULDN'T command him before he got stabbed by the Morgul blade..

Originally Posted by Landroval

Frodo is far greater (at Orodruin)

.
You miss my point entirely. How could the nazgul at Weathertop know how great Frodo was at that moment? They saw the guy for the first time! I am not saying that he COULD at this point command the nazgul, as he would be able later, but that the nazgul THOUGHT that he could.

Originally Posted by Landroval

Runes are not prerequisite to endowing objects with magic, if that is what you imply.

No, it is not at all what I imply. I say that the runes are something cultured people can read. If the BD blades had an inscription in plain Tengwar/ Kertar "Die, the accursed Witch-King!", than Aragorn and Denethor and the Mouth could read it. If there were no runes, then it took someone far more competent in sorcery to learn what the spell was. It can't be told at the first glance even by them. Or it took a nazgul, who didn't need to read anything, but just saw how the blades burned red in their presence.

Gordis: Can you prove that Aragorn knew WHAT spell was on the blades before the Witch-King was stabbed?
Landroval: No, I can't. But your theory implies that sometime in the future he got to know, which I find unlikely.

I believe the nature of Tom's swords became known to the Wise, and therefore Aragorn, only AFTER the WK was killed.
For instance, Gandalf visiting Tom after the War could have asked him "By the way, old chap, what were these handy little swords you gave to the hobbits? One proved really useful!"
And Tom told him the story about "him who made the sword long ago when Dunedain were young.. and "no other sword..." thing and so the story got into the chronicles, and from there into the Red Book.

Think on it. No character in ALL the story has told the hobbits: "keep your blades at hand, these are the only things really handy against a nazgul!" Why?
No one told it to Sam, for instance - he left his sword at the "dead" Frodo's side for the orcs to take and took Sting instead, because he believed Sting was a better sword!
Imagine that the confrontation with the nazgul at Sammath Naur, so many times sketched by Tolkien, DID indeed happen. Dearly would he have paid for that choice!
To me it is PROOF that NO ONE in the Fellowship knew the truth about the swords before Path Galen, and therefore practically surely before the Pelennor.

Gordis: Sauron had too much on his mind to peer at all the blades captured by his orcs.
Landroval: Only that on this case, he requested immediate and exclusive information on such events.

CAB has all but proved that the order to send all the items found on the captured prisoners to Barad Dur was a STANDING order at Cirith Ungol. Note also that the blade was delivered to Barad Dur on the very day of the Pelennor battle. Sauron could have relied on the Mouth to examine the sword and the mail shirt. He WAS busy, you know.

Originally Posted by Landroval

The nazguls underestimated him before his attack, that was my point.

And my also. As I have pointed out in my first (?) post on the matter, 2 nazgul of the 5 were left standing idle on the lip of the dell - they had nothing to do, the hobbits and the man being already outnumbered.
We differed later, you said they underestimated him during the attack, I said that the sight of Frodo's sword and his puttimng on the Ring made them pause and come from under-estimation to overestimation.

Originally Posted by Landroval

It is also evident that they didn't know about the blade than after the wheatertop, (the opposite was part of your supposition, IIRC).

Not necessarily. They didn't know that the HOBBIT had the blade, but my hypothesis that they thought that it was Gandalf who plundered the Barrow is not disproved. Neither is it confirmed.

Originally Posted by Landroval

I will note that this doesnt exclude that other weapons can't harm the nazgul, seeing that both Fingolfin and Thorondor harmed Melkor, (and the same can be said of Sauron the necromancer being overthrown by Elendil and Gil-Galad) - the nazgul being vastly inferior to both these masters of them.

I always agreed that other weapons were able to HARM nazgul. The question was how badly? "Wound, not kill" that is what I said about the ordinary blades. Note that Narsil was hardly an ordinary blade, it could have been enspelled against Sauron, but still it didn't kill Sauron. Narsil and Aiglos "brought Sauron down". . His spirit left his body when the Ring was cut from his finger. If not for it, he would have recovered, IMHO.

Originally Posted by Jammi

In my personal opinion, i believe that Frodo picked up a sword that was the same type that Tom later gave (i.e. anti-evil blades). Merry's sword, when he stabs the Witch king, does excactly the same thing. Therefore, in my mind at least, this proves that both the wights and the nazgul are able to have physical bodies held together by magic, but when the blade pierced them, the magic of the blades distroyed the magic holding the bodies together. This is why i think the nazgul were cautious of Frodo on Weathertop.

It is a gem of a quote, Jammi!

I think it is more than likely that Frodo picked one of the Barrow-Downs TM swords, enspelled against the WK and used it on a Wight.

Tolkien in his earlier drafts in HOME VI believed that Wights were akin to the nazgul, but later dropped the idea. As it stands now (as far as I remember from numerous threads on the matter) the Wights are thought to be Housless Spirits inhabiting dead bodies in the Barrow. But it seems the Wights had similar to the nazgul's protection spell on them, that made the sword shatter.
Anyway, it is canon, that it was the WK who sent them to Tyrn Gorthad. So being his creatures, they may have been vulnerable to the blades enspelled against him. But may be not so vulnerable as the Witch-King himself (if the spell was indeed very specific)? The wight lost its arm, but still snarled and may have recovered, had not Bombadil intervened.

So, Jammi, it is a very good observation. The more the wights were similar to the nazgul, the more the news of the Wight's destruction should have been ominous to them.

[jammi567]

Thanks Gordis. i'm surprised that no-one picked this quote up earlier.

[Butterbeer]

chickening out of the question huh Gor??

..............

seriously though, i wish you guys would write slightly less sometimes .. it is frankly impossible for me, with what time i have, to actually follow it, and it seems like a good one this...

can someone give me a concise summary of where we are at ?

[jammi567]

very good point butterbeer.

[Rían]

Originally Posted by Gordis

Perhaps some torment was what every prisoner received in Sauron's dungeon's just as a part of the service - like towels in a hotel??

ROTFL!!

That is so funny I can't even read the rest of the thread now!

[Landroval]

The quote doesn't say whether Aragorn, Gandalf etc. recognized the swords.

In one of the drafts, "At Rivendell", The Return of the Shadow, Gandalf states that "Not to mention courage - and also swords and a strange and ancient name. Later on I must be told about that curious sword of yours, and how you knew the name of Elbereth". Then again, in no version do I know of any special recomendation to the hobbits regarding the swords.. richly bizzare

And there is an additional element, not really discussed before: the nazgul believed that Frodo was somehow associated with High Elves.

Well, it seems that the w-k is looking for explanations and reasons, but the "R" word just doesn't want to come to his mind; high-elves, the wise... but not the "R" word .

And another matter: the nazgul here seem so very HUMAN in mind, not some zombie-like creatures implied by UT quotes "had no will of their own", "utterly subservient" etc.

Good observation - this goes against both UT and the letters; it almost calls into question just how "canonical" that quote is - seeing that it was written before the end of Lotr.

Why couldn't they command him to drop his blade and follow them nicely

They most probably intended that, before some weird thoughts about forgotten valar started messing with his mind

They saw the guy for the first time!

Yeah, and came with preconceptions due to underestimation, as I believe you agree.

I am not saying that he COULD at this point command the nazgul, as he would be able later

When later, Gordis? I don't have the letters, but I remember that not even at Mount Doom is he able to command their wishes - correct me if I'm wrong. We are talking about a very hypothetical future.

If there were no runes, then it took someone far more competent in sorcery to learn what the spell was. It can't be told at the first glance even by them

Aragorn recognized the general effect against the "Mordor" - there is also a nice quote about Ugluk throwing the swords away as if they burned him . Now, with no runes but only graphical elements but still correctly identified - it is most likely that (at least) the swords of that design carry those anti-Mordor spells.

Note also that the blade was delivered to Barad Dur on the very day of the Pelennor battle. Sauron could have relied on the Mouth to examine the sword and the mail shirt. He WAS busy, you know.

There was plenty of time between the two battles - not to mention that the incident at the tower requested an even more special attention.

They didn't know that the HOBBIT had the blade, but my hypothesis that they thought that it was Gandalf who plundered the Barrow is not disproved.

If that is true, I would like to reffer to a previous point: if these swords are the only one deadly to them, why would they leave them around, with guys like Glorfy and Gandie walking around? Tom also mentions, IIRC, that unless one is fearless, one should be aware of the wights. Seeing how precarious the defence of the blades is against such odds, if they are exclusively deadly, why leave them around?

[Alcuin]

Originally Posted by Landroval

In one of the drafts, … Gandalf states that "… I must be told about that curious sword of yours, and how you knew the name of Elbereth".

Taking intent from the drafts, and in particular extra or background information, such as plot devices, is probably a better use of them than relying upon them for the final plotlines: those are in the published novel. Characters and events emerged and submerged in the drafts, some of which were jiggered for years before they settled into final form. Some of the flaws in the finished product reflect discarded plotlines, such as when Harry the Gatekeeper slips out of the Prancing Pony after Frodo’s accident with the Ring: Harry had never entered the inn in the final telling; but he still departed. The incident can be explained away, but it is still a small error.

Originally Posted by Landroval

Well, it seems that the w-k is looking for explanations and reasons, but the "R" word just doesn't want to come to his mind; high-elves, the wise... but not the "R" word

I am afraid the ‘“R� word’ reference is lost to me; what is it? (He asks rudely.) Frodo’s association with the Noldor would already be known to the Witch-king: Gildor and his friends surprised Khamûl in the Woody End and prevented his finding Frodo and his companions.

-|-

Originally Posted by Landroval

Good observation - this goes against both UT and the letters; it almost calls into question just how "canonical" that quote is - seeing that it was written before the end of Lotr.

The whole notion that the Nazgûl were “zombies� or automatons is probably misplaced. They were individuals, with the gifts and deficiencies they had in normal life, but with altered perceptions, and of course, their bodies had faded into the wraith (or “shadow� or spirit) world.

The Nazgûl had no “will� of their own in matters concerning their instructions from Sauron. To the best of their abilities, they would carry out not only the letter of his instructions, but the malign spirit of them, too. That they could still make mistakes in these matters is demonstrated by the incident in “The Hunt for the Ring� in which the Nine wander about the Vales of Anduin, hunting fruitlessly for “Shire�, when it was on the other side of the Misty Mountains.

As an aside here, I believe that Christopher Tolkien has wondered in print why the Witch-king would have been unfamiliar with “Shire� and its locale. I think the answer is fairly straightforward. “Shire� was in fact the old royal demesne of the Kings of Arnor, given over to the halflings after it had become depopulated of Dúnedain with stipulations the hobbits continued to follow for 1400 years, 1000 of which were without a sitting king in Fornost. Had the Nazgûl left with instructions to find the old royal demesne, they would have headed straight for it: the Witch-king knew where that was. But “Shire� was a new one: he simply did not recognize the name, nor did he understand the association between the two. Such transpositions and changes in the names of regions are common over history: how old were you when you learned that Portugal is part of the ancient Kingdom of the Visigoths? (Maybe just now…?) If you were a Roman transported into the 21st century, and someone said, “Oh, we’re going to Colchester, you know where that is!� even when you arrived, would you recognize it as the old provincial capital city, Camulodenum?

Originally Posted by Landroval

When later, Gordis? I don't have the letters, but I remember that not even at Mount Doom is he able to command their wishes - correct me if I'm wrong. We are talking about a very hypothetical future.

I believe that in Letter 246, written in 1963, Tolkien says that not even Aragorn could wrest the Ruling Ring from Sauron. The Nazgûl were under no illusions as to who their real master was. Even of the Wise, only Gandalf might have been able to wrench it away from Sauron: Galadriel or Elrond would have kept his distance and attempted to conquer Sauron from afar had either wielded the One Ring.

-|-

Recognition that the barrow-blades were the “work of Westernesse, wound about with spells for the bane of Mordor,� as Aragorn put it, does not seem to have been secret. Aragorn knew it, the orcs of Isengard knew it, the Nazgûl certainly knew it, and the Mouth of Sauron knew it. What none of them other than the Nazgûl and Bombadil seem to have recognized was that they were designed to do grievous harm to the Ringwraiths. Had Sauron closely inspected Sam’s barrow-blade himself, he might have realized this; but the way events fell out, the implication is that he did not: in his impatience, he seems to have focused entirely upon the assault on the Morannon by Aragorn, taking the bait that Aragorn and Gandalf dangled before him: the façade that they had the Ruling Ring and were challenging Sauron for supremacy, just as Ar-Pharazôn had at the end of the Second Age. Sauron seems to have grasped Mark Twain’s observation that, “History never repeats itself, but it rhymes.� Fortunately for the Good Guys, he was humming the wrong tune. (And yes, that is a reference to the Ainulindalë.) It was a masterful deception, and Sauron was taken in completely, as Gandalf hoped he would be.

[jammi567]

This has been discussed on another thread about wether the nazgul had any free will of their own here. in my personal opinion, i believe Sauron had to be focusing on them to be able to control them. so when they were serching for the Ring aroung Anduin, he was throrughly serching there because that's where he know it last was. once he realized it wasn't there, and gollum said 'shire' and 'baggins', he let the nazgul have their free will back because a) he had other things to focus on, and b) they're his most loyal servents, and so should be able to find it quickly and efficiantly. of course, once they got their will back, they also recovered their former fears etc. i think this is the best senario with the evidence we've got, both from UT and letters, as well as lotr itself. what do you guys think.

[Alcuin]

Originally Posted by Landroval

…if these swords are the only one deadly to them, why would [the Nazgûl] leave them around, with guys like Glorfy and Gandie walking around? Tom also mentions, IIRC, that unless one is fearless, one should be aware of the wights.

They did not “leave them around.� They were in a barrow haunted by a barrow-wight, a necromantic creature sent there by the Witch-king after the Great Plague in III 1636, over 200 years after the collapse of Cardolan in III 1409. Gandalf told Frodo when he awoke in Rivendell that his capture in the Barrow was “perhaps the most dangerous moment of all.� Coming from Gandalf, and bearing in mind the terrible hazards Frodo faced on Weathertop and at the Ford of Bruinen, this is a very strong statement. The barrow-wight was an extremely dangerous guardian infesting the tomb.

Since Aragorn, Gandalf, and even Elrond failed to recognize completely the significance of the blades, I think we can speculate that they were manufactured only in Cardolan. Had they been devised by the smiths of Arthedain, or had they been used in both daughter kingdoms of Arnor, then Elrond would likely have known all about them; but the wars with Angmar under the Witch-king’s leadership broke out in the 14th century of the Third Age (that would be during the 1300s, not the 1400s), and Cardolan fell early in the 15th century.

Frodo and his companions were trapped by a barrow in the tomb of the last Prince of Cardolan, who died in III 1409. Tom knew him as well as his family, it would seem, and it seems he was aware of the knives’ powers and purposes. There do seem to have been quite a few of them in the tomb: each of the hobbits received one from Tom that he selected, and it may be that the blade that splintered when Frodo struck the barrow-wight was a fifth blade of that kind. The Dúnedain seem to have buried their dead kings much as the Egyptians had (and also the heathen Anglo-Saxon and Norse, as well as many other peoples throughout history), with rich treasures. That the survivors of devastated Cardolan would bury the last royal heir of their little kingdom with the best treasures they could afford would not be surprising: after he died, they all again became subjects of the king at Fornost, and Cardolan ceased to exist as a separate kingdom.

We should consider two points. First, why would these blades appear in Cardolan and not in Arthedain, the senior and greater kingdom? Second, how would Bombadil know the purpose and powers of the blades when even Elrond seems to have been unaware of them?

Again, we are speculating, but an answer the first question might be this. Cardolan was likely by far more heavily traveled by visitors than Arthedain, whose capital at Fornost was well north of the main trade routes. Cardolan sat astride the Greenway and along the Great East Road (a very ancient route: it was probably the same as the old Dwarf Road whose western end led past Nogrod in the Blue Mountains to Doriath). Tharbad, at one time both a great inland port and the site of the bridge across the Greyflood maintained jointly by both Arnor and Gondor, was on Cardolan’s border and thus its concern as long as Cardolan was independent. Bree was part of Cardolan, too: it was one of the primary junctions of the northern trading system. This might mean that the Dúnedain of Cardolan were able to obtain knowledge from Arthedain, which was once again an ally after the wars with Angmar began; from Rivendell and Lindon; and from the other great Dúnedain kingdom, Gondor. We might suppose that scholars would have traveled south from time to time to study the ancient documents stored in Osgiliath, Minas Tirith, and Minas Ithil, all of which still stood. What was lost in the ruin of Osgiliath and the capture of Minas Ithil can only be imagined, but it must have been similar to the information lost when Fornost fell. The Dúnedain of the late Third Age were a mere shadow of themselves at the end of the first millennium. The Elves and Dúnedain probably realized fairly quickly what the Witch-king of Angmar was: a Nazgûl. It is no great stretch to imagine that some genius of Cardolan, which was likely a wealthy and prosperous kingdom due to its location, started hunting about for a means of fighting this scourge, particularly if the Witch-king was already using Morgul-knives: after all, if the process of turning someone into a wraith using an enchanted blade worked, why could not the process be reversed, and a wraith be made vulnerable to the weapons of the physical world? It is also possible that these blades were copies of weapons made in the Second Age, when the Nazgûl were first encountered by the Númenóreans, or based in part upon knowledge still intact from those days. Cardolan was most centrally located for such an effort, and if the junior kingdom was under greater threat and stress than anyplace else in Eriador (Rhudaur had already fallen to Angmar’s control), the learnéd Dúnedain of Cardolan had by far the greatest motivation to discover some means of combating their undead foe.

If you can swallow all this speculation, the second question becomes much easier. I have suggested that the folk of Cardolan went all over the West to find a solution to the problem of making the Nazgûl vulnerable to their weapons. This might have been the life-long pursuit of several learnéd men, and possibly with royal support. Bombadil was their neighbor, and they actually claimed to rule the territory that he also claimed: the Old Forest and the Barrow-downs. As long as they adopted a live-and-let-live attitude to Tom Bombadil, and they were not evil, as seems likely, they would have had some interaction with him: after all, Bombadil maintained contacts in the Shire: with Farmer Maggot for instance; and Aragorn knew him, too, indicating that he had had some conversations with Bombadil in his lifetime. It might even be that Bombadil had been consulted in the matter of overcoming the necromantic defenses of the Nazgûl: if he had, that would explain his extraordinary interest in the Black Riders when Frodo was telling about his adventures on the way to meeting Tom at Old Man Willow. And if Old Man Willow was one of the “things of evil spirit, hostile to Elves and Men, … on the watch in the Old Forest� stirred up by the Witch-king during the hunt for the Ring (Unfinished Tales, “The Hunt for the Ring�), then that would be an added impetus for Bombadil to think about how Frodo might best deal with the Nazgûl, whom he was likely to encounter again. Had someone consulted with him 700 years earlier, he would be unlikely to forget; but even if had never been consulted, were the barrow-blades of Cardolan’s exclusive manufacture, and the folk of Cardolan in contact with Tom the way Farmer Maggot was in Frodo’s day, he might be the only living creature other than the Nazgûl themselves who remembered it.

Now, as a parting thought, consider this: whether any of this speculation about where the barrow-blades was constructed is correct or not, it is quite possible that the Witch-king was unaware of the disposition of the knives custom-designed to destroy him and his eight necromantic fellows despite the fact that the wight had them in the tomb. The wight might or might not have been aware of it; and even if he were, there is no way to know that the Witch-king made the rounds to check on his undead minions once he had sent them to haunt the barrows.

Originally Posted by jammi567

This has been discussed on another thread about wether the nazgul had any free will of their own here. ... i think this is the best senario with the evidence we've got, both from UT and letters, as well as lotr itself. what do you guys think.

I am afraid I do not agree, but perhaps it would be best to discuss that in the other thread you reference?

[jammi567]

Originally Posted by Alcuin

Now, as a parting thought, consider this: whether any of this speculation about where the barrow-blades was constructed is correct or not, it is quite possible that the Witch-king was unaware of the disposition of the knives custom-designed to destroy him and his eight necromantic fellows despite the fact that the wight had them in the tomb. The wight might or might not have been aware of it; and even if he were, there is no way to know that the Witch-king made the rounds to check on his undead minions once he had sent them to haunt the barrows.

i agree with you here, because who the hell would want to go there after hearing that the dead guard the places that that they're barried in, and that they kill anyone who enters.

[CAB]

Originally Posted by Gordis

We don't have the answer whether the nazgul knew about Tom. We don't know whether they knew about the Wight destruction before Weathertop - though it seems not, after all.

Well, we can still discuss these questions, but they no longer have any importance concerning the happenings on Weathertop.

Originally Posted by Gordis

The quote doesn't say whether Aragorn, Gandalf etc. recognized the swords.

I still think that, if they weren’t familiar with these swords (which seems pretty reasonable, after all the swords had never been used successfully before), they could have deduced their most likely purpose. Maybe, like you suggested before Gordis, they just never took the time to think about it.

Originally Posted by Gordis

Think on it. No character in ALL the story has told the hobbits: "keep your blades at hand, these are the only things really handy against a nazgul!" Why?

My first impression after reading this was that maybe no one thought that the Hobbits were capable of attacking a Nazgul, but this probably wasn’t true for Gandalf at least. I now think you are right. They probably didn’t know what the swords were meant for.

Originally Posted by Gordis

Also, from the quote in Reader's Companion, it seems very probable that the spells on the sword were NOT against all the nazgul, but against the WK alone. Have you also got this impression?

I think the swords were almost certainly made exclusively for the Witch King (since there were no other Nazgul in Angmar) but would be just as effective against the other Nazgul. The impression that I get from the quote is that the Witch King was really only concerned for himself (which in the context of that quote could make it sound like the swords would only work on him alone).

Originally Posted by Gordis

Not necessarily. They didn't know that the HOBBIT had the blade, but my hypothesis that they thought that it was Gandalf who plundered the Barrow is not disproved. Neither is it confirmed.

When we talk about a barrow being plundered in this way, we are making a lot of assumptions, even leaving alone the question of whether or not they heard about the wight before Weathertop. Did every barrow (or at least every barrow with a wight) have the anti-Nazgul blades in them? How many were in each barrow? Certainly the Nazgul didn’t have an inventory of what was in each barrow, so they couldn’t know what was removed from the one that the Hobbits were trapped in. Now, it is possible that they assumed (before Weathertop) that the wight was destroyed only to obtain a barrow-blade. But this would be a big assumption (again, pre-Weathertop) and would lessen the shock that Frodo gave them (which is an important part of the explanation of events on Weathertop).

Originally Posted by Gordis

But it seems the Wights had similar to the nazgul's protection spell on them, that made the sword shatter.

That was my feeling at first, but I don’t think so now. We seem to have forgotten (and this applies to the Nazgul “semi-invincibility� also) about the “shock� that one gets when stabbing a Nazgul (or, at least the Witch King, and probably the others). Frodo doesn’t experience this, so the spell wasn’t the same (though, I suppose it could be merely similar, as you mentioned). I think that probably Frodo didn’t pick up a mystical sword, but rather a normal one. Being very old and non-mystical, the sword probably broke due to brittleness.

Originally Posted by Gordis

I say I am sure that Mouth was unable to recognize the blades unless Sauron or a nazgul told him.

Originally Posted by Alcuin

What none of them other than the Nazgûl and Bombadil seem to have recognized was that they were designed to do grievous harm to the Ringwraiths. Had Sauron closely inspected Sam’s barrow-blade himself, he might have realized this; but the way events fell out, the implication is that he did not

I agree that the Mouth would almost certainly not recognize the sword, but I think that the question of whether or not Sauron saw it and Frodo’s things is an open one. One way or the other, I doubt that Sauron would have acted differently at that point. In his mind, what was the danger of the sword? He had “forces ten times and more than ten times their match� on the scene. He had to think that all the enemy forces before his gates would be dead or prisoners by the end of the day. More importantly, the Ring (in his mind) was right in front of him, so why would he care about one measly sword that wasn’t even meant for him personally, but rather for one (or nine) of his servants?

Alcuin, I like your theory concerning the origins of the barrow-blades. Seems very reasonable. But I have to question this part:

Originally Posted by Alcuin

Now, as a parting thought, consider this: whether any of this speculation about where the barrow-blades was constructed is correct or not, it is quite possible that the Witch-king was unaware of the disposition of the knives custom-designed to destroy him and his eight necromantic fellows despite the fact that the wight had them in the tomb.

Doesn’t it seem that the quote from the LOTR Readers Companion disproves this idea? Also, Gordis has theorized that the Witch King sent the wights to the barrows specifically to guard the swords. Isn’t that the best explanation for their presence there?

Originally Posted by Landroval

Well, it seems that the w-k is looking for explanations and reasons, but the "R" word just doesn't want to come to his mind; high-elves, the wise... but not the "R" word .

I’m not sure what you are referring to either, Landroval. Let me throw out a guess. Could the “R� word be “Religion�? We are talking about Frodo calling to Elbereth, after all.

[Alcuin]

Originally Posted by CAB

Doesn’t it seem that the quote from the LOTR Readers Companion disproves this idea? Also, Gordis has theorized that the Witch King sent the wights to the barrows specifically to guard the swords. Isn’t that the best explanation for their presence there?

CAB, I am afraid I have not read Hammond and Scully’s work, but only citations from it; though I plan to rectify my short-coming in the next several days. Until I have, I would rather not address how the Reader’s Companion might provide a response to your question. If you will be patient with me, however, I shall try to answer you when I have finished with that text.

As for the Witch-king’s sending the wights to the barrows specifically to guard the swords, I do not think that was his primary purpose, although perhaps it was a consideration.

The Kingdom of Cardolan ceased to be an independent, junior monarchy in III 1409. Its last prince died in the war that year, and Amon Sûl was also destroyed in that war, and its palantir removed to Fornost. During the war, Appendix A of Return of the King tells us,

A remnant of the faithful among the Dúnedain of Cardolan also held out in Tyrn Gorthad (the Barrowdowns), or took refuge in the Forest behind.

This passage tells us several things. First of all, there were “faithful among the Dúnedain of Cardolan�. This kind of phrasing “faithful among…� is also used concerning the Númenóreans at the end of their island kingdom, and if we combine this with Faramir’s almost off-hand remark to Frodo that “‘It is not said that evil arts were ever practiced in Gondor, or that the Nameless One was ever named in honor there…’� we might easily draw the conclusion that part of the dissension among the Dúnedain of Arnor might have come from some of the Dúnedain worshipping the Dark, as had the Black Númenóreans of old. That isn’t a certainty, of course, but in addition to the fact that of the three daughter kingdoms of Arnor, it was least well-populated by Dúnedain, it could in part explain why Rhudaur was overrun by allies of the Witch-king; it would explain why Arnor was more susceptible to being overrun and destroyed by the forces of Morgul than Gondor, where such practices were never tolerated; and it might explain some of the dissension within Arnor before its division.

But the clear text says that they “held out in Tyrn Gorthad (the Barrowdowns)â€� during the war of 1409: they were hiding out in and amongst the tombs themselves. Fornost had been overrun by the forces of Angmar, and Araphor, who became king of Arthedain when his father Arveleg was killed fighting at Weathertop, was able to defeat Angmar only with help from CÃ*rdan in Lindon. The implication is that the enemy was not cleared from Cardolan until after Fornost had been secured: in other words, the Dúnedain engaged in the kind of guerilla warfare against Angmar that their distant Edain ancestors had waged against the forces of Angband toward the end of the First Age. Bombadil was in the Forest and among the barrows, as well; but whether he made himself known is not clear.

Put yourself for a moment in the Witch-king’s position at the conclusion of the war of 1409. Amon Sûl, which posed a serious impediment to the domination of eastern Eriador, is destroyed. You can’t use it, but neither can your enemies. The palantir has eluded you, but you get another shot at it later, as well as at the palantir of Annúminas: both are now in Fornost. You have entered your enemy’s capital, killed or enslaved the inhabitants who did not escape, looted the city of whatever treasures and information (another kind of treasure) left behind, and possibly burned it as well when you were forced to leave. But you were unable to secure the southern border of Cardolan and complete an envelopment of the Dúnedain because you were unable to clear them from the barrows and the Forest. The Forest, for some reason, you cannot overrun; but the barrows, which are stone (or wood) tombs dug into the earth, represent a large number of localized fortifications that your opponents have used to deny you control of the Barrowdowns. The use of these barrows must be denied to them if you are to conquer Arthedain; otherwise, the Dúnedain will be able to bring up reinforcements from Lindon through Cardolan, or perhaps by landing them at Tharbad or marching overland from Gondor or Lórien or maybe even from Khazad-dûm.

How do you stop the Dúnedain from using the barrows as cover and make-shift fortifications? Why, you infest them with wights, of course! And after Cardolan’s population was nearly annihilated through the ravages of the Great Plague in III 1636, and they are unable to resist or repel the invasion of the tombs by the wights, you seize complete control of the formerly productive and defensible Barrowdowns, which now become your defensible positions and all but unassailable unless the Dúnedain really expend a lot of resources to dislodge and destroy the wights.

By now, fellow ’Mooters, you’ve either decided I’ve wasted a lot of your time and posting-space, or you understand where I’m headed with this: the wights are not in place to prevent the Dúnedain from retrieving the enchanted knives they have constructed to fight the Nazgûl, although that might have been a consideration, assuming that the Morgul-lord knew where these weapons were disposed. The barrows were infested with wights in order to prevent the Dúnedain from using them to fortify and secure what had once been central Arnor. In fact, what had been a series of Dúnedain strongholds now becomes a series of Morgul strongholds.

Moreover, the barrows were exceedingly ancient. The Edain had buried their lords in the oldest of the barrows in the First Age before ever they crossed the Ered Luin into Beleriand and met the Eldar. The Barrowdowns were a place of not only immense antiquity, they were revered as the place in which their forefathers lay before they became “the Edainâ€�. The Dúnedain buried their own lords and noblemen in barrows on the downs. They were outstanding scholars, and they still had the resources of the Eldar to help them remember their history; it is likely that, during the Second Age, and certainly during the Third Age, they were able to identify the tombs of some of the ancestors of Bëor the Old, lord of the First House; Marach, lord of the Third House; and possibly even some of the Haladin, the folk of the Second House. This was an important place to the Dúnedain of Arnor. Remember how hard their southern cousins must have worked to build and maintain Rath DÃ*nen and its Houses of the Dead in Minas Tirith; and in Númenor, the Kings and Queens were buried in the Noirinan, the Valley of the Tombs between the southeastern and southwestern spurs of Meneltarma. This is an echo in literature of ancient Egypt’s Valley of the Kings, and like the ancient Egyptians of the real world, like the ancient builders of New Grange in Ireland, and the barrows in sight of Stonehenge in Wiltshire, England, they remained places of special reverence: the place of the ancestors. (Stonehenge itself is not a tomb but a stone circle within a complex of stone row approaches and menhir, or standing stones, outside the circle.) Besides Stonehenge and the barrows of Wiltshire, there are barrows all over the island, especially in Hampshire, Dorset, Somerset, Shropshire, Cornwall, Norfolk, Somerset – you get the picture. There are other stone circles, portal tombs, dolmens (burial chambers), cairns (piles of stone above a tomb) – the remains of a veritable stone-age civilization. Tolkien was aware of them: so were the Dark Age writers that he studied, both in Britain and across Western Europe. These are the archetype of the barrows of the Barrowdowns. The people who lived in the places – whether in Egypt or the long-lost kingdom of Mercia (Tolkien considered himself a descendant of the Mercians: see Letter 55 and especially Letter 95) – value these ancient tombs as the resting places of their forefathers.

How the Dúnedain of Arnor must have valued their ancient tombs! It was the one thing that they possessed that preceded even their experience with the Eldar. To lose possession of these tombs, to be denied access to them as a places of refuge, and to find them desecrated by evil wights, must have been very demoralizing to the Dúnedain, especially to the few survivors in Cardolan of the Great Plague.

I have rattled on far too long. (Cheers from the sidelines as Alcuin finally stops!) But the infestation of the barrows – and their importance to the Dúnedain as tombs, as refuges, perhaps even for storage of foodstuffs and reserves and weapons for war, and certainly as places of reverence, should not be underestimated. Control of the Barrowdowns was crucial to control of central Arnor, and loss of control of the Barrowdowns has to be one of the contributing factors that led to the ultimate destruction of the state of Arnor.

‘You do not know your danger, Théoden,’ interrupted Gandalf. ‘These hobbits will sit on the edge of ruin and discuss the pleasures of the table, or the small doings of their fathers, grandfathers, and great-grandfathers, and remoter cousins to the ninth degree, if you encourage them with undue patience…’

[jammi567]

bloody hell, you're excelent! why didn't you join earlier! . i just have one question. how could the barrow blades that the hobbits have just be specific to the witch-king, and not to any of the other nazgul?

[CAB]

Excellent post Alcuin.

You do not know your danger, Théoden,’ interrupted Gandalf. ‘These hobbits will sit on the edge of ruin and discuss the pleasures of the table, or the small doings of their fathers, grandfathers, and great-grandfathers, and remoter cousins to the ninth degree, if you encourage them with undue patience…’

What a terribly misplaced quote! At the bottom of one of Alcuin’s (far too rare, if you ask me) posts. Doesn’t apply at all.


I must admit that I never gave too much thought to the Witch King’s reasons for sending the wights to the barrows. It seemed to require more “strength� than the he should have had (but obviously, that isn’t true), so I looked at it from a story external point of view: Tolkien wanted Frodo to encounter a wight on the way to Rivendell and he needed a reason for the wight to be there.



I hate to go back to this now, but...

Originally Posted by Alcuin

I am afraid I have not read Hammond and Scully’s work, but only citations from it; though I plan to rectify my short-coming in the next several days.

I haven’t read this book either. I was referring to the quote from it that Gordis used (in post #61 of this thread) to essentially prove her (and your) theory concerning the events on Weathertop. The quote that apparently got the thread on the other forum erased by a sore loser. In this quote we are seeing things from the Witch King’s view and the danger the sword presented is clearly a major concern for him, so it seems very unlikely that he didn’t know what it was made for.

Originally Posted by jammi567

how could the barrow blades that the hobbits have just be specific to the witch-king, and not to any of the other nazgul?

The Witch King and other Nazgul are each individuals, just like you, me, and everyone else. If I had the knowledge, I could make an “anti-jammi567" blade (of course I wouldn’t do that ) which would be extra effective when used against you but not against me, even though you and I are in the same category (normal human beings).

Since there were no other Nazgul in Angmar, the barrow blades were probably meant for the Witch King alone. Having said that, I would guess that the blades would have been equally effective against the other Nazgul since it is probably easier to make a weapon which is strong against a category of beings rather than against an individual. However, there are other ways to look at the issue, and I couldn’t really get into it without going on and on (and I’m not Alcuin, so it wouldn’t be as informative or interesting).