Didn't Sauron Know?

[BeardofPants]

Originally posted by aeglos
So how could the three be under the spell of the one if Sauron did not know of their existence?

I don't remember the UT version, but my feeling was that Sauron knew about the three, and when he put his ring on, it was detected, so the three went into hiding.

aeglos:
In all of this he knew that no one could wrestle control of the ring from him and that the only way to destroy the ring was to return it to Mt Doom and it seems that logically he would protect all approaches to that area.

That's not entirely true. Sauron feared that another would use the ring against him. And there were some contenders who could have done so with great effeciency, eg Gandalf, and perhaps even Aragorn... then Saruman.

Sauron could not conceive that the free peoples would want to destroy the ring; that is why he didn't work that into the equation. He could not get his head around the concept that they did not want to use the power of the ring to dominate over the enemy.

aeglos
Sauron may have been over confident that with or without the ring he could finally triumph. But he definetly knew the Ring was out there and should have been able to find it.

Yeah, but Middle Earth ain't that small. The task of finding one small ring, even with leads, is pretty daunting!

[Artanis]

Originally posted by aeglos
I just re-read Unfinished tales. There are some real oops in the book. I always thought that Sauron had Celebrimbor forge all the rings with his assistance. In the book it seems that Celebrimbor became aware of Sauron's intentions and forged the three elvish rings without Sauron's knowlege. Only under torture did he reveal the secret. So how could the three be under the spell of the one if Sauron did not know of their existence?

Sauron knew. From the Sil:

Now the Elves made many rings; but secretly Sauron made One Ring to rule all the others, and their power was bound up with it, to be subject wholly to it and to last only so long as it too should last. And much of the strenght and will of Sauron passed into that One Ring; for the power of the Elven-rings was very great, and that which should govern them must be a thing of surpassing potency; and Sauron forged it in the Mountain of Fire in the land of shadow. And while he wore the OneRing he could perceive all the things that were done by means of the lesser rings, and he could see and govern the very thoughts of those that wore them.

It goes on telling how the Elves became aware of Sauron's treason, and fled from him and hid their rings, and that

those who had them in their keeping could ward off the decays of time and postpone the weariness of the world. But Sauron could not discover them, for they were given into the hands of the Wise, who concealed them and never again used them openly while Sauron kept the Ruling Ring. Therefore the Three remained insullied, for they were forged by Celebrimbor alone, and the hand of Sauron hed never touched them; yet they also were subject to the One.

From the first qoute it also seems clear to me that Sauron and the One Ring is one, and not as two dissident parts as have been suggested.

[Blackheart]

<From the first qoute it also seems clear to me that Sauron and the One Ring is one, and not as two dissident parts as have been suggested.>

Here's an interesting side light.

There were no more artifacts, no more cities to be built in the lands of Men. And the Elves who understood that Arda still possessed the Morgoth-element might be reluctant to use it again on the scale of creating Rings of Power. They had learned through many bitter lessons what the price of working such magic would be.

The source of power for the rings was quite possibly the power Melkor invested into Arda. The elves learned to tap into this power from Sauron.

Think of what these rings were meant to do. Stop time? Preserve entire regions? Doesn't sound like any power short of something "godlike". Sauron may well have had to "invest" a good part of himself in creating the one ring (just as the elven smiths likely had to do) but it was indeed an investment, that paid handsome dividends in the amount of power he could reap from the remnants his old boss left behind.

The fact that all of the other rings were touched by Sauron, means a likely method of his exerting control over the user's was to invest an additional small part of his power into each of the nine and the seven. Nothing like the one however. Just enough to taint them.

The three were never tainted, never touched, and never sullied, but that doesn't mean that they were hidden. They all ran of the same batttery, so to speak. But since they weren't tainted, the users couldn't be controlled. They couldn't be dominated.

The link that Sauron forged to Morgoth's power must have been bound up in the ruling ring however. Which might be why he had to invest possibly the major portion of his power in it. Think of it not as the battery, but the battery terminal. When it was destroyed, the power ceased to flow to the other rings.

Sauron isn't the ring however. The power he invested in it was his. But the ring was in contact with a far greater power. Perhaps more than one.

[aeglos]

I do not believe that the Elves needed a ring to slow down years. They lived until they tired of life or were killed. So time was not a issue, protection was and I agree those rings had power. Sauron knew where two of the rings went. He knew Gil-galad had one and Galadriel the other. If he had known that Gil-galad had two he might have risked all to get them. I do not believe he had power over the rings. And since he had no part in crerating them they would not have the same effect the nine had on men. The fact that Gil-gald gave both rings away at least poses the theory that if they lost to Sauron these rings would still provide safty and power to the foes of Sauron. Melkor is a different story. I watched a program on C.S. Lewis this weekend and I had no idea he was such a relegious person. It is interesting to see how different his books are from Tolkien's, especially considering that Tolkien often ran his stuff by Lewis. The Valor in my opnion were pretty petty. They had been fighting with Melkor from the beginning but when the Noldor got their backs up they were thrown to the wolves. Where Aslan was always saving the day the Valor let the Noldor down over and over again. So I do not believe that Sauron needed Melkor for anything. Gandalf in his former self feared Sauron, and did not want to go to Middle-earth.

[BeardofPants]

Originally posted by aeglos
I do not believe that the Elves needed a ring to slow down years. They lived until they tired of life or were killed. So time was not a issue, protection was and I agree those rings had power.

The chief power (of all the rings alike) was the prevention or slowing of decay (i.e., 'change' viewed as a regrettable thing), the preservation of what is desired or loved, or its semblance -- this is more or less an Elvish motive. But also they enhanced the natural powers of a possessor -- thus approaching 'magic', a motive easily corruptible into evil, a lust for domination. And finally they had other powers, more directly derived from Sauron ('the Necromancer': so he is called as he casts a fleeting shadow and presage on the pages of The Hobbit): such as rendering invisible the material body, and making things of the invisible world visible." Letters, 131.

[Earniel]

What BoP said basically. The elves used the rings to preserve their realms not their own lives.

[Blackheart]

So I do not believe that Sauron needed Melkor for anything.

I don't even claim to know where to begin disabusing that...

[BeardofPants]

Might I suggest a swift smack around the head?

[aeglos]

Sauron by the third age was on the verge of controlling the middle-earth., something Melkor never did. The fact that Gandalf/Olorin when Manwe wanted to send him to middle=earth tried to decline, because he feared Sauron, showed the power he had.

It took the intervention of the Valor to get rid of Melkor, and then they withdrew from the world. So lacking another equal to deal with, I repeat Sauron had no need of Melkor in the third age.

[mirial]

blue

[Blackheart]

Originally posted by aeglos
[B]Sauron by the third age was on the verge of controlling the middle-earth., something Melkor never did.

What in the coppy hell? Morgoth held the majority of northern Beleriand, and held sway over most of the east over Ered Luin. The Noldor were at best a minor problem. The Sun and moon gave him more fits.

Sauron never did manage a major crushing defeat on the west. Everytime he tried he was repulsed. And this was during the second age, when he had the ring, and was arguably more powerful than he ever was during the third age.

The only reason he would have succedded in the third age was the decadance (in the original sense- not the modern sense) of his enemies.

The fact that Gandalf/Olorin when Manwe wanted to send him to middle=earth tried to decline, because he feared Sauron, showed the power he had.

A more likely explination is that Olórin was a student of Nienna. I doubt that fear led him to try and decline. More likely it was the tendancy towards wisdom and pity he learned there.

It took the intervention of the Valor to get rid of Melkor, and then they withdrew from the world. So lacking another equal to deal with, I repeat Sauron had no need of Melkor in the third age.

I think you are mistaking the entire point. Likely Sauron was enjoying being out from under the thumb yes. But his ultimate aim, probably not to be achieved for ages, was to prepare Arda for the return of his master.

But that certainly doesn't mean that he was above tapping the power Melkor invested in Arda. Indeed without it, he would have been hard pressed to carve out any sort of empire.

Even when he was near the height of his power, he was cowed by a bunch of pantywaist Numenorians in boats.