The Lord of the Rings Discussion, Book II, Chapter 2: The Council of Elrond

[Butterbeer]

Originally Posted by Durin1
Let's face it, why would either race waste their energies on being overtly against each other?

Olmer:
Can you answer this rhetorical question, which all nations of the world continue to ask since the dawn of human race?[/QUOTE]

May not always agree with him, But you've got to give it to Olmer there!

Generally i find his posts refreshing and thought-provoking, and agree with some of it, whilst finding overall that it tends to have a consistent slant i am not in tune with personally - but like i said: certainly thought provoking and in the above quote: UNCONTESTABLE!

[Butterbeer]

Originally Posted by Nurvingiel

I agree Val, the Nazgul just radiate evil and might have 'given away the game' as they say.

I don't see why sending Gloin and Gimli to Rivendell was some sort of conspiracy theory. Elrond and the other elves there had nothing against Dwarves, as Elrond demonstrated.

Further, it is made abundantly clear in this chapter (by Elrond) that all Free Peoples of Middle-earth are to be represented in the Fellowship - Nine Walkers against Nine Riders.

Finrod, your summary of this chapter is completely brilliant! Nice job. I really like this chapter so it was very enjoyable to read, but I can see that it would have been difficult!

*tippetty-tap - posting tonight! frenzy!!*
Yup agree with you Nurvingel (& Valandil) : also agree one of the best summaries of a chapter ,i, in my relative freshness to Entmoot, have read: well edited!

Quote: "Elrond and the other elves there had nothing against Dwarves" - well yeah kinda basically in tune with you generally there, but as a statement it seems a bit wide or vague certainly in historical terms - what i mean by that is: i'm sure Olmer could quite justifiably - if you are that way inclined to view it that way could for a change! - at least on some of it! shred that statement to bits (maybe he does later in the post? I, as usual am jumping in BIg FEET first as per).

By the way i had a really good ( for once) repost to the Ring (being sentient? / isludur jumping in river /corrupting him /bombadil (power over ring etc) thread, but somehow lost it from my computer and felt the (rare) inspiration gone never to be seen in this fair world again? Shame: but ce la vie.
As i recall i again found olmer's iideas refreshing and thought provoking with elements of justification in there and also Gorbis's ideas to a degree also, although overall thought they went too far (olmers anyway)

sorry i can't recall the peoper name of that discussion, perhaps you could post it if necessary????

[Butterbeer]

Originally Posted by Forkbeard

I guess I don't see that, Nurvingiel. Where is the Mouth described as having a breath that hisses like snakes, whose presence strikes inexplicable terror into those who stand near, can not make his voice sound fair and has a fell voice? If anything, the description of the Mouth. So while some of the points could apply to the Mouth or another like him, these features seem to me to speak only of the Nazgul.

As for trusting the Mouth, how do we know he was as loyal as a Nazgul and wouldn't be tempted by the Ring? EVERYONE, even Gandalf and Galadriel, though loyal to the Free Peoples and the Valar are tempted by it, and resist the temptation. WOuld the Mouth have so resisted? Saruman didn't.


I'm not sure that that is true. Bilbo and Frodo frequently used the Ring and Sauron didn't know. And when Frodo puts on the Ring on Amon Hen, is the wearing of the Ring, or the wearing of the Ring on Amon Hen that alerts Sauron? Even then, he can't pinpoint its location. And Tolkien does not say that ONLY Sauron can master it, just that it would take a "large" person to do so, someone perhaps like Gandalf or Galadriel rather than Frodo or Gollum.

And the point of course isn't whether or not the Mouth COULD master the Ring so much as he would be tempted to do so...even Isildur attempted it.



I disagree here too: Boromir's idea was shot down because the Ring was evil, none can wield unless they have a great power of their own, and the Ring would corrupt. The Mouth is already "corrupt" and evil, has a great power of his own (like Isildur except that he has long studied "sorcery" under Sauron), he's a very good candidate to try and master the Ring.

FB

yup pretty much agree with all that: IMHO twas' a Nazgul (fair play it coula' been MOS but don't think so)
Agree MOS might possibly have tried to take ring in - though in practice no way it would have worked - finding the Shire?? findng a hobbit called Baggins etc on his own, across whole stretches of wilderland etc all time sauron and the nazgul wondering where he's got off to??? Nah not practical - but agree he may have been tempted to try: would sauron welcome this? Possibly - on Amon Hen he sensed the ring and his eye over great distance swept the hill top several times until gandalf sitting in a high place himself helped out - but given time (plenty more time than it would have taken MOS to learn to -if possible for him, control and make full use of the ring) Sauron WOULD have located the ring eventually.

[Butterbeer]

Quote:
Originally Posted by inked
So, TD, what has that to do with the discussion?

We were discussing why Boromir and not Faramir. Knowledge of the Ring was not present to B, F, or D. It isn't necessary to explain their interactions and we haven't resorted to it. It's all about the dysfunctional relationships within the Denethorian family.


Durin:
Which doesn't belong to the remit of this chapter. Faramir and Denethor are hardly mentioned.

Can we keep to things more relevant to what is DISCUSSED during the Council?
__________________
Durin the Sleepless!

INked: paraphrase: my pardon!


Classic !
- er know this off subject but found whole Faramir/ Boromir / Denethor / why dream etc fascinating. - Was it not an original question from FF though??
Right - forgot what i was going to say now.

[CrazySquirrel]

I wonder why didn't they send elves like Glorfindel or Elrond's sons with the company instead of the fool of a Pippin at least.

[Last Child of Ungoliant]

because gandalf advised against it, and elrond had to bow to the superior intellect of a maia

[Olmer]

Originally Posted by CrazySquirrel

I wonder why didn't they send elves like Glorfindel or Elrond's sons with the company instead of the fool of a Pippin at least.

Because Glorfindel, indeed , can't do the task which was heaved by Frodo-the hobbit. As Elrond profoundly declared:"It is fate that the HOBBITS should rid the world of it".. (HOME,"The Retutn of the Shadow")
If interested, here is the whole tread on this subject:
Why have Merry & Pippin in Fellowship?

[Finrod Felagund]

Originally Posted by Durin1

I actually agree partly with you on this Gaffer. I remember one of my first (naive) readings of LoTR when I was young(er) and I thought to myself: But WHY don't they TRY and use it!!! I always thought that Boromir had a valid point and was probably just airing what others must have been thinking. However, ultimately it was this "desire" to do good that led to Boromir's downfall.

I once read an interesting quote...I THINK it was in Unfinished Tales maybe...

But in effect, it said that Boromir's desire for the ring largely echoes Melkor (Morgot), in the Silmarillion. From a desire for light, caem darkness. They both wanted, in essence, to create something beautiful or pure...but in naivety, both went about it on their own in their own way, and ended in only darkness and pain.


Also...in re-reading Olmers first posts in the thread here...I really can see where he's coming from...perhaps not the full extent.

Certainly, they wanted advice...but I see also a desire to be included, as the dwarves largely weren't in the last Alliance. They didn't want to become obsolete.
And also, I think a desire to see that their interests were put forward regarding the ring, so that indeed, it didn't end up going to the elves or anything like that.
And lastly, perhaps a genuine curiosity about this ring that little Bilbo had and the Dark Lord so desired.

[sisterandcousinandaunt]

All this hoo-rah about why certain representatives were sent to the Council misses an obvious point. This was "top brass only". Other than Elrond's personal buddies,(and some riff-raff Gandalf dragged in ) the representatives were the Heir of Isildur, the king's son from Mirkwood, the king's son from Minas Tirith (for all intents and purposes) and a senior member of the royal family of the Lonely Mountain. Elrond felt these people were "meant" to be the ones at this decision point. And Denethor sent Boromir because he was less "subtle" and therefore less subject to either inadvertently revealing Denethor's machinations or being subverted to Gandalf's 'greater cause'. And Borormir wanted to go, because he was a big sword carrying ass, and a lengthy journey through hazardous terrain to a hidden valley was just his cuppa.

But maybe (without bringing in all kinds of books authored by Chris Tolkien ) someone could tell me what "Saruman ring maker", as quoted by Gandalf, is supposed to refer to. I always felt that was kind of a red herring Tolkien later dropped.

[Earniel]

I always kind of suspected that Saruman wasn't just interested in finding the One Ring, but also in the skills and processes of Ring-making. Therefore I thought it very likely he also experimented and attempted ring-making and that Gandalf had found out. Considering the damage the ring-making craft had wreaked in the wrong hands, a throw-away mention of Saruman's ring-making endeavours may have been a simple way of trying to show how dangerous Saruman could be, or maybe how deep his obsession for the rings of power had become. Pure speculation on my part, however.

Or maybe Gandalf was just this teeny bit vindicated about being locked on the top of the tower, that he couldn't resist a quick jab in the direction of Saruman. Something akin to Saruman's use of 'Radagast the bird-tamer'?

[Butterbeer]

haven't much of a clue what we are on about - but some of my old posts made me laugh - somet' about keeping to the discussion?

I tend to disagree Duke S - "top brass" for me was not, i feel, the point - but rather a calling and of those that were called seems important - regardless of how shiny their "brass" might be.

I think the theme here was more inclusive, and at this stage of composition to JRR, far more important in redefining his world after 'the Hobbit'.

...............

Wotcha Eärniel! - How's things? ..long time!

Since Saruman created his own minor ring, i'd say that is true - but to my mind, then the more interesting angle is - if - that is the major consideration - how much, and by when, was he influenced and tainted by looking into the palantir of orthanc?

Because, if that was in his mind- then i'd suggest it was planted there- as i doubt a Major ring was at this time possible from learned Lore, after the ONE was made.

What do you think?

[Earniel]

*waves to BB*

If Saruman was practising ring-making, I'm pretty sure most of the knowlegde must have been coming from Mordor via the PalantÃ*r. The Gwaith-I-Mirdain had pretty much all perished, so that 'fountain' of lore was equally pretty much gone. And Sauron was after all, the original source of the craft, so it's logically Saruman got some from him. Sauron on his part may just have been feeding Saruman little tidbits to keep him hooked.

[Forkbeard]

Originally Posted by Eärniel

*waves to BB*

If Saruman was practising ring-making, I'm pretty sure most of the knowlegde must have been coming from Mordor via the PalantÃ*r. The Gwaith-I-Mirdain had pretty much all perished, so that 'fountain' of lore was equally pretty much gone. And Sauron was after all, the original source of the craft, so it's logically Saruman got some from him. Sauron on his part may just have been feeding Saruman little tidbits to keep him hooked.

But hadn't both been Maia of Aule?

[sisterandcousinandaunt]

*clears throat*
In LOTR, folks, not UT or summat.

There's no evidence that Saruman used rings (his own or anyone else's) at all. His staff, that's the issue. Without his staff, he could "make mischief in a small mean way." according to Gandalf, talking to Treebeard.

But that's much later. In THIS chapter, Gandalf brings it up, and it never reappears, although they run through the list of the original rings.

Why?

[Butterbeer]

.. you mean apart from all the incontovertible evidence that Saruman had made himself a ring?

other than that ... ... do carry on!

*passes Duke S a throat pastle - very good for coughs and sore throats*

[sisterandcousinandaunt]

Originally Posted by Butterbeer

.. you mean apart from all the incontovertible evidence that Saruman had made himself a ring?

other than that ... ... do carry on!

*passes Duke S a throat pastle - very good for coughs and sore throats*

Thank you. Tell me about this ring, then.

[Forkbeard]

Originally Posted by sisterandcousinandaunt

Thank you. Tell me about this ring, then.

Gandalf explicitly mentions it in his report to the Council and as I recall it is mentioned in UT: Hunt for the Ring.

[sisterandcousinandaunt]

Originally Posted by Forkbeard

Gandalf explicitly mentions it in his report to the Council and as I recall it is mentioned in UT: Hunt for the Ring.

out of bounds, technical foul. Which report to the council? This one? He reports that Saruman goes on about "I am Saruman of many colors! Ringmaker!" bwahahaha etc. but what happens next? Is there any first hand (really, this isn't intentional, today.)report of it? Is anyone detailed to collect it from Orthanc, after Saruman is defeated?

In LOTR, and not in those endless tidying up materials from Chris' basement clearouts, what happens to an obviously significant (if extant) weapon?

[Valandil]

sis...

Several paragraphs before the, "I am Saruman... Ring-maker", we have Gandalf's description of his arrival at Isengard:

'But I rode to the foot of Orthanc, and came to the stair of Saruman; and there he met me and led me up to his high chamber. He wore a ring on his finger.'

(boldness is mine)

So - Gandalf explicitly mentions seeing a ring on Saruman's finger, and then that Saruman proclaimed himself "Ring-maker". I think Tolkien is clearly hinting to us that Saruman is trying to dabble in the making of rings of power.

[The Gaffer]

Plus he is explicitly acknowledged as the most knowledgeable member of the White Council when it comes to Rings of Power. More knowledgeable than the bearers of the Three...