Why didn't Sauron lead the attacks?

[Agburanar]

I had another interesting thought. It's always been my suspicion that Sauron had no actual form at the end. He was embodied in the remains of the Nazgul and held together only by the power of the Great eye. I am a firm believer that the eye was somehow manifested in a huge statue in one of the highest chambers. It's just an image that appeals to me, he'd be a suitable candidate for some kind of Idolatry.

[ringbearer]

For some reason, while reading LotR, I never formed a "mind picture" of Sauron. The descriptions(in LotR only) were vague(perhaps because his form was vague at this stage). Therefore, I think he was a disembodied spirit. The "red eye thingie" is a symbol of his ability to see long distances through whatever means he used, and how whoever sensed his probing would picture it in their mind. Remember at the last battle...his emisary was called " the Mouth of Sauron"...because Sauron had no mouth of his own!

[Agburanar]

Well said.
Of course it's possible that the mouth WAS Sauron, however I think this unlikely. Had Sauron passed away and his minions were held in his 'imaginary' command only because the one Ring still remained? Had Sauron's spirit retreated into the ring giving it it's power to move between carriers and, finally tiring of life on middle earth, chose to have his spirit perish in the fires of Orodruin?

[Finmandos12]

Well, I can't see Sauron allowing himself to perish and giving up his plans of world domination so easily, if he was in the ring.

[ringbearer]

Originally posted by Agburanar
Well said.
Of course it's possible that the mouth WAS Sauron, however I think this unlikely. Had Sauron passed away and his minions were held in his 'imaginary' command only because the one Ring still remained? Had Sauron's spirit retreated into the ring giving it it's power to move between carriers and, finally tiring of life on middle earth, chose to have his spirit perish in the fires of Orodruin?

Sauron's spirit was not in the ring, only much of his power.

[Galadriel2002]

Also remember Saruman told Gandalf that they would deal with Sauron one way or another. What if two Istari, the two most powerful no less, went up against Sauron? Sauron may fear that.



going back to this i would be thinking if sauraman didn't becaome saurons helper and he remained good i think he and gandalf could have whipped saurons @ss!!

[ringbearer]

Originally posted by Galadriel2002
Also remember Saruman told Gandalf that they would deal with Sauron one way or another. What if two Istari, the two most powerful no less, went up against Sauron? Sauron may fear that.



going back to this i would be thinking if sauraman didn't becaome saurons helper and he remained good i think he and gandalf could have whipped saurons @ss!!

Gandalf was not allowed to contest Sauron with power and he would not violate this!

[Agburanar]

Gandalf wouldn't have, but what about the other Istari? Radagast is supposed to have given into the lure of Nature and Alatar and Pallando strayed as well didn't they? If these were directed by Saruman against Sauron (Assuming Sauron lessened his hold on Saruman) That would be four Istari and surely Sauron would fear that!

[olorin]

If I remember from the Sil, I think, Sauron was a Maia of higher order than the Istari were, more along the lines of Eonwe, the herald of Manwe. Also, after the Last Alliance, Sauron was vanquished (for the third time, if I remember correctly) and fled shapeless to widerness, so maybe the eye was the final shape he could take

[Agburanar]

So Sauron was the victim of a macabre game of 'Heads, shoulders, knees and toes'? He lost a bit each time! (Like several of the orcs at Cirith Ungol, hahaha!)

[Gandalf]

First regarding your Gandalf comment:
Gandalf the White and Gandalf the Grey are not the same. The Gandalf that whitstood the Witch King could have easily whooped the Balrog's arse. And besides, if it hadn't been for that whip Gandalf wouldn't have fallen in the first place.

Secondly:
Sauron has no body. It's quite hard to fight without one of those.

Third:
He did lead the attack, mentally.

- Bram;

[Gandalf]

Originally posted by olorin
If I remember from the Sil, I think, Sauron was a Maia of higher order than the Istari were, more along the lines of Eonwe, the herald of Manwe. Also, after the Last Alliance, Sauron was vanquished (for the third time, if I remember correctly) and fled shapeless to widerness, so maybe the eye was the final shape he could take

That's not quite true ... I can't find it in my notes at the moment (will look later), but the Istari - or at least Gandalf - outranked Sauron.

[Tar-Elenion]

Sauron had no body?
Thats odd Gollum describes him as having a hand. JRRT drew a picture of Sauron and Sauron looks reasonably 'humanoid' (the picture was drawn for a cover of RotK). Sauron, in the Third Age, took a 'human' form. He was not a disembodied 'Eye' (that was merely his symbol).

Sauron was more powerful than Gandalf.

[Ñólendil]

Gandalf, in Of the Istari in Unfinished Tales it is said that the Istari were not necessarily of the same rank as the other Maiar (they themselves were certainly Maiar), but it is not stated whether they were lesser or greater. I would be inclined to say lesser rather than greater, as Curumo (Saruman, if you didn't know) was a Maia of Aulë and Sauron was stated to be the greatest of that people.

Olórin was stated to be coeval with Manwë, but I think this just means they were of the same age.

[Gandalf]

That indeed was mentioned, yes, but both your as my version are possible, as neither of them are denied nor confirmed.


Perhaps Sauron was more powerful than Gandalf yes, but only in an Evil way. As we all (should) know, Sauron was Morgoth's apprentice and not a bit less evil than him. Gandalf however (note: I am referring to Gandalf the White here) is powerful as well. It is certain that Sauron was more powerful than Gandalf the Grey, but whether the same goes for Gandalf the White is a whole other issue ... I don't know the answer, but think that if Gandalf would have used his Ring (which he wasn't supposed to, but anyway) he might've nuked Sauron.

[Tar-Elenion]

Remember Gandalf's (as the White) own comment on the matter. He told Gimli that he was more dangerous than anything in Middle-earth except Sauron.

[Gandalf]

"Except" can also mean "along with" ... But anyway, let's not argue about that. Gandalf and Sauron are both fascinating, regardless of who was the best.

[samwise of the shire]

It said at the beggining that the Ring drew the will of Sauron to it,so during the times of quiet would'nt the Ring be able to call strong enough to draw Saurons mind to it?What happened? Did Frodos will cover it or was Sauron an idiot as well as a coward(which is the reason why I think he stayed in the tower)?
Sam

[Finmandos12]

Obviously, Sauron is more powerful than Saruman, who was more powerful than Gandalf the Grey (don't know about the White). If Saruman was more powerful than Sauron, he would've wiped him out when he turned to evil.

[Gandalf]

Saruman wasn't more powerful than Gandalf the White, I believe book III Chapter XI - or was it X? - explains that in great detail .

BTW: you will never see me refer to a chapter's title, because I read LOTR in Dutch, and therefor do not know the English names of the chapters.

- Bram