Are there any homosexual characters in The Silmarillion?

[NelyafinweMaitimo]

I felt a sort of...something...with Maedhros and Fingon since I was very young. I don't know an English word for it at the moment. I think it's a vibration or vibe maybe?

Anyway, I feel that they were intimate, though perhaps not sexual.

[Belwen_of_nargothrond]

I totally agree with bropous in every way.

[Draken]

Just browse through some fangirl fanfiction. Apparently every character is gay, in every story. Ever.

[ecthelion]

what is fan girl fanfiction?

[BeardofPants]

Well, it's where the male elf takes his peepee, and the girl human from earth takes off all her clothes and... *insert birds & bees lecture here*.

[Mari]

Except that it often includes boy-boy relations and often doesn't go much further then a kiss. A few people I know are into this kind of thing and I sometimes check their English before they publish it online. Some stories are really funny! (Allthough they are certainly not intended te be )

[Gwaimir Windgem]

Originally Posted by Willow Oran

Don't. Expand it to account for historical correctness of definitions if you must. But it is true enough to stand on it's own. This is why possesion of a dirty sense of humor seems to be a requirment for all latin teachers...

Oh, yes, homosexuality is certainly very present in the classical tradition; I'm just really not sure they would consider a person to be "gay" or "straight". They would just look at the act, rather than trying to categorise the people, from the vast majority of what I've seen. In modern terminology, it would be more accurate to call what you find in classics "bisexuality", although even that doesn't really fit it. Achilles had his Patroclus, and his Bryseis; Zeus had his Europa, and his Ganymede; Socrates had his wife, and his Alcibiades; and so on.

[BeardofPants]

Yeah, but those are all prominent people. I wonder if those relationships were part & parcel of being wealthy or upper class, cos that sorta continued past the classical period (behaviours being acceptable in the upper class, but not so much in the lower ones).

[Belwen_of_nargothrond]

Originally Posted by Draken

Just browse through some fangirl fanfiction. Apparently every character is gay, in every story. Ever.

I can't stand to read any fanfiction. I prefer the original stories how they were meant to be and not changed or mangled by some crazed fans.

[Valandil]

Originally Posted by Belwen_of_nargothrond

I can't stand to read any fanfiction. I prefer the original stories how they were meant to be and not changed or mangled by some crazed fans.

I don't mangle. I fill gaps.

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by Belwen_of_nargothrond

I can't stand to read any fanfiction. I prefer the original stories how they were meant to be and not changed or mangled by some crazed fans.

The best fanfics change nothing in the main plot. They only explore Tolkien's world further - filling the gaps and telling new stories with their own original characters set in Tolkien's great universe. Some fics out there are quite good - sometimse they are even better written, as to the depth of character development, than Tolkien's own stories. Some but not most. Unfortunately, about 90 percent of fanfics are awful crap.

[inked]

NO! (see page 1 of this thread)

[Curubethion]

Originally Posted by Gwaimir Windgem

Oh, yes, homosexuality is certainly very present in the classical tradition; I'm just really not sure they would consider a person to be "gay" or "straight". They would just look at the act, rather than trying to categorise the people, from the vast majority of what I've seen. In modern terminology, it would be more accurate to call what you find in classics "bisexuality", although even that doesn't really fit it. Achilles had his Patroclus, and his Bryseis; Zeus had his Europa, and his Ganymede; Socrates had his wife, and his Alcibiades; and so on.

That's only in non-Judeo-Christian mythologies, however. The Judeo-Christian mythologies, which Tolkien primarily wrote from, did not feature homosexuality in a positive light.

The presence of homosexuality was also due to a mild dose of misogyny. In the Greek philosophical worldview, women were lesser beings than men. Therefore, the most perfect love would be that between a man and a man, because love between a man and a woman would only be "degrading" to the man.

[Gwaimir Windgem]

Originally Posted by BeardofPants

Yeah, but those are all prominent people. I wonder if those relationships were part & parcel of being wealthy or upper class, cos that sorta continued past the classical period (behaviours being acceptable in the upper class, but not so much in the lower ones).

Well, at least in ancient Greece, pederasty (which, it should be noted, is not the same thing as what we call homosexuality today) was viewed by many as being a higher form of love than that of a man and woman, though not to the point that it should exclude it; I also wonder to what extent ancient Athens or Sparta had class differences among the citizens. I'm not aware of such cut and dry class lines in ancient Greece as you would find in Roman or medieval culture, though perhaps you, having studied anthropology, might be able to share something I am not aware of. I'd certainly be interested.

But, also, the question was brought up in regard to the classical literary tradition, which tends to focus around, as you put it, "prominent people".

Originally Posted by Curubethion

That's only in non-Judeo-Christian mythologies, however. The Judeo-Christian mythologies, which Tolkien primarily wrote from, did not feature homosexuality in a positive light.

I don't really think that JRR primarily wrote from the Judeo-Christian mythologies; they were the basis of his layout of the world, but the actual stories and the characters seem (to me, at least) more influenced by pagan myth.

The presence of homosexuality was also due to a mild dose of misogyny. In the Greek philosophical worldview, women were lesser beings than men. Therefore, the most perfect love would be that between a man and a man, because love between a man and a woman would only be "degrading" to the man.

Just as a minor niggling point, it's not a man and a man, it's a man and an adolescent boy. That aside, I think that the misogyny which you refer to certainly helped to defend the pederastic tradition, but I don't really think you can say it stands as a cause to the Greek boy-love; I imagine it would have existed, even if there hadn't been the misogynistic tendencies.

[BeardofPants]

I was merely wondering aloud. I studied ancient history as well, and didn't really recollect much as it's been a while. I did a quick search in wikipedia (just now) and came up with this:

"Though the love of boys was freely practiced by the aristocracy, it remained a source of mirth for the common people, and a topic lampooned by the comedians. Aristophanes, in Peace, in a parody of Ganymede riding on the back of Zeus in eagle form, has his character ride to Olympus on the back of a dung beetle, a scatological pun on anal sex."

I've not read any sources for quite a while, so I've no real thoughts on this, and there's no much anthropology I can bring in (). Was really just musing out loud, cos certainly in latter historic periods, pederasty, etc, was openly practiced by aristocrats, and so forth, but not so much by lower ranking peoples (ie commoners).

[Gwaimir Windgem]

Speaking of Aristophanes, I remember one character talking about wishing some father in the society would come to him and complain that he (the character) hadn't been pursuing his (the father's) son; as I recall, the character was at least in fairly dire financial straits, which would seem to indicate that he would be in the lower strata of Athenian society.

EDIT: But we're rather off-topic...

[Jon S.]

Months later, I think I finally can articulate my answer to the OP's question. Yes, there are homosexual characters in the Simarillion. There has to be because the characters in the book include the full community of Elvish, mannish, and Dwarvish peoples and whether some are able to acknowledge it or not, a certain percentage of every community, always, has been, is, and will be gay.

Whether Tolkien presented any of his characters as overtly or covertly homosexual is a different question. Yes, it happens to be the question most of y'all would argue over but the answer to OP's question remains "yes."

[Curufin]

On the topic at hand, I couldn't care less.

It's not a Mills and Boon novel, and it shouldn't be read to discover characters' sexuality.

But, I do suggest that you take Aegnor/Aikanáro off the list of possibles, and read Athrabeth Finrod ah Andreth.

He was in love with Andreth, a daughter of Men.

[Curufin]

Originally Posted by katya

Ok, back on the whole Maedhros/Fingon thing, this was in "What Tolkien Officially Said About Elf Sex", but does anyone know the part in Morgoth's ring that it's referring to?

Ok, re-read this thread...I've read Laws and Customs many, many times, and that is not in there that I remember! I think that site may be misinterpreting. Anybody back me up/prove me wrong on this?

EDIT: Ok, that site is pulling it out of it's backside with the uncle and half-brother stuff. First cousins can marry. Simple. That's all Fingon and Maedhros would have needed to get around the incest 'thing.' This is from Laws and Customs among the Eldar.

’ For marriages of the Eldar do not take place between ‘close kin’. This again is a matter in which they needed no law or instruction, but acted by nature, though they gave reasons for it later, declaring that it was due to the nature of bodies, and the processes of generation; but also due to the nature of bodies and the processes of generation; but also to the nature of fëar. ‘For,’ they said, ‘fëar are also akin, and the motions of love between them, as say between a brother and sister, are not of the same kind as those that make the beginning of marriage. By ‘close kin’ for this purpose was meant members of one ‘house’, especially sisters and brothers. None of the Eldar married those in direct line of descent, nor children of the same parents, nor the sister or brother of either of their parents; nor did they wed ‘half-sisters’ or ‘half-brothers’. Since as has been shown only in the rarest events did the Eldar have second spouses, half-sister or half-brother had for them a special meaning: they used the terms when both of the parents of one child were related to both of the parents of another, as when two brothers married two sisters of another family, or a sister and a brother of one house married a brother and sister of another: things which often occurred. Otherwise, ‘first cousins’, as we should say, might marry, but seldom did so, or desired to do so, unless one of the parents of each were far-sundered in kin.

[Aikanáro]

They're not using 'half-brother' in the regular sense. From HoME X:

...nor did they wed 'half-sisters' or 'half-brothers'. Since as has been shown only in the rarest events did the Eldar have second spouses, half-sister or half-brother had for them a special meaning: they used these terms when both of the parents of one child were related to both of the parents of another, as when two brothers married two sisters of another family, or a sister and a brother of one house married a brother and sister of another: things which often occurred. Otherwise, 'first cousins', as we should say, might marry, but seldom did so, or desired to do so, unless one of the parents of each were far-sundered in kin.

I think that might be what they were referring to?

Edit: But you already found it. I don't type quickly enough!

Edit #2 - might as well add my opinion:

I don't think that any of the elves Tolkien wrote about were gay, simply because of Tolkien's views on the subject. I'd like to think, as someone else has mentioned, that there were gay elves, after all, why shouldn't there be?

Fingon and Maedhros - I've come across some well-written fanfic on the subject, but I'm not convinced. Interestingly, though, that first cousin marriages weren't entirely taboo for the Eldar does make Maeglin/Idril a lot less creepy.