The Lord of the Rings Discussion : Chpts 7 and 8

[Elanor the Fair]

Thanks, Valandil, but I don't understand!! When I checked my post earlier today the picture was not there and now it is!! It's like magic!!

[Elanor the Fair]

Oh!! I just read my PM's and discovered it was not magic that made my image appear, but some clever manipulation by Khamul.

Thanks Khamul!!

[Linaewen]

Originally posted by Artanis

I've read many theories on who Tom is - and I think there have been flaws in them all, but the one I like most is that Tom is the spirit of the Earth itself, or perhaps I should say, the Earth as it was meant to be, before it was corrupted by Morgoth (bringing in Sil things here ). There is a connection between Goldberry's "He is", and Eru's "Ea - Let these things be". People have speculated that he might be one of the Ainur, but I don't think so. He is certainly not a Vala, and he is probably not a Maia, in that case the Ring would have power over him. Just look at Saruman, Sauron and Gandalf. And it is said that Tom is the Eldest, that he was present before any other spirit in the world. "He knew the dark under the stars when it was fearless - before the Dark Lord came from Outside."

Most people have said that they think Tom is some sort of earth spirit, which I agree with. It's interesting that you say the earth spirit, Arty, because I find it hard to imagine the spirit of all of Arda encompassed in one being (i.e. Tom).
So then, can't other 'earth spirits' exist, or is Tom the most significant since he is Eldest?

And good job, Elanor and thanks Khamul.

[Linaewen]

Originally posted by RÃ*an
Question 2 : So why the singing and rhyming?

I would say to show how unaffected he can be to everything else that's going on in the world, like how the Ring has no power over him. Maybe it shows how above and beyond the current events Tom is- in the grand scheme of things in the history of Me (past and future), the conflict over the Ring is minor.

I also like to think that Tolkien put it in to add some 'lighter moments' to the book's contents. One of the reasons I enjoy LotR so much is that despite the element of grimness and misery that permeates much of the book, there are still a number of moments of joy and light-heartedness.

[Artanis]

Elanor, lovely maps!

Originally posted by Linaewen
It's interesting that you say the earth spirit, Arty, because I find it hard to imagine the spirit of all of Arda encompassed in one being (i.e. Tom).
So then, can't other 'earth spirits' exist, or is Tom the most significant since he is Eldest?

I would argue that Tom is not significant because he is the Eldest, but because he is a symbol of Arda unmarred. Which would also perhaps serve to explain why he will not leave his little realm - he has no place in the world outside which is touched by evil.

Actually, I'm posting this against my own councel, for though I too have my theories about who Tom is, I do think he serves the story and the atmosphere in the book best if he is left as an enigma.

[Rían]

I'm baaaaack - thanks for the nice weekend wishes, it was fabulous! (see happy thread)

Wow, some great thoughts while I was gone -

by Beren3000
An interesting similar feature that unites all of Tolkien's villains is their use of deception and/or temptation. This occured in the cases of OMW and the Wight and we'll see it later with "the voice of Saruman" and Sauron's deception of Denethor and his whisperings in the ears of the Numenoreans and the Elves of Eregion. This is characteristic of the concept of evil in Christianity (and perhaps many other religions): evil often comes down on you disguised and tries to play on your weaknesses or desires to achieve its end...

Yes, that's kinda the idea I was trying to get at with my question - I just finished the temptation section of Milton's Paradise Lost last night - I'll have to quote some excerpts, there's some GREAT examples of this, esp. the whole idea of deception to further the evil one's ends (like the voices Frodo hears in the fog, and the suggestions of sleepiness, etc.)

by the Gaf
One difference is how Tom treats them: he seems to have respect for Old Man Willow (at least he respects his right to exist, and doesn't dig him up) whereas the wight is despatched post haste.

Now that's interesting; I never thought of that difference before. I wonder why that is? Is it because of the whole redemption thing that Val brought up in that other thread? OMW is alive still; wights are NOT (at least I always thought of them as dead thingys) and so can't be redeemed? Or does Tom think like Gandalf about dealing out death, and again, the wights are already "dead" but just hanging around still, like company staying too late so Tom shows them the door? Great point, Gaf!

Tolkien offers lots of different conceptions of baddies. Smaug was a complex and intelligent character whose vanity was his downfall; Sauron is a cipher of unmitigated nastiness. Saruman, of course, has fallen from grace as a result of getting too absorbed in studying the arts of badness.

I think pride is also a very important (and shared) characteristic of these baddies. I don't think that in Saruman's case, it was simply from studying the "arts of badness" (great term!). He studied them, in the first place, BECAUSE of his pride and selfish desire to rule. I like the little bit in Unfinished Tales, IIRC, where it talks about Saruman liking pipeweed but being too proud to show it because Gandalf discovered it first.

[Rían]

Originally posted by Linaewen
I also like to think that Tolkien put it in to add some 'lighter moments' to the book's contents. One of the reasons I enjoy LotR so much is that despite the element of grimness and misery that permeates much of the book, there are still a number of moments of joy and light-heartedness.

I agree, and I think that is part of the brilliance of the book! It makes the grim parts much grimmer, too, to have seen the joy that might be destroyed.

[Rían]

Originally posted by Artanis
[B]I would argue that Tom is not significant because he is the Eldest, but because he is a symbol of Arda unmarred. Which would also perhaps serve to explain why he will not leave his little realm - he has no place in the world outside which is touched by evil.

Interesting thought, Arty! I've never thought of that before - and I've wondered why Tom stayed within his bounds.

Actually, I'm posting this against my own councel, for though I too have my theories about who Tom is, I do think he serves the story and the atmosphere in the book best if he is left as an enigma.

I agree, but it's fun to float theories

[Elanor the Fair]

Originally posted by Linaewen

And good job, Elanor and thanks Khamul. [/B]

Thank you, Linaewen.

Originally posted by Artanis

Elanor, lovely maps! [/B]

Thank you, Artanis.

[Beren3000]

Originally posted by RÃ*an
I agree, and I think that is part of the brilliance of the book! It makes the grim parts much grimmer, too, to have seen the joy that might be destroyed.

Agreed! I always thought that this was one of the literary purposes of the Fellowship of the Ring books (aside from the obvious one of introducing the characters): namely, to describe the joy and carefree satus of the Shire so that the misery of Frodo in the later books can be fully appreciated.

EDIT: I'm glad you're enjoying Paradise Lost, RÃ*an. Isn't it just the greatest book ever? (Even though that's off topic, but what's your favorite moment in the book so far?)

[Rían]

Originally posted by Beren3000
EDIT: I'm glad you're enjoying Paradise Lost, RÃ*an. Isn't it just the greatest book ever? (Even though that's off topic, but what's your favorite moment in the book so far?)

(wow - favorite moment in PL? I don't know what to say - I've underlined so much. The language is so powerful! Right now, I'm in the "it's not MY fault" section where Adam tries to pass the buck - written 400 years ago and relevant today! I think there's a thread on PL - I'll try to find it.)

[brownjenkins]

Originally posted by Beren3000
EDIT: I'm glad you're enjoying Paradise Lost, RÃ*an. Isn't it just the greatest book ever? (Even though that's off topic, but what's your favorite moment in the book so far?)

enjoyed it too!

one of my favorite quotes:

"the mind is its own place, and in itself can make a heav'n of hell, a hell of heav'n."

[Beren3000]

Your quote comes from my favourite part in the book, brownjenkins! It's that part where Satan envies the humans for Paradise and regrets his Fall. I LOVE that part!
P.S. Sorry, this will be the last drifting off the topic on my part

[Rían]

I have that part underlined, brownie! Great stuff.

Speaking of the regret aspect, how 'bout this bit when Satan is about to address the waiting "fellows of his crime" :

from Milton's "Paradise Lost", book I
Thrice he assayed, and thrice, in spite of scorn,
Tears, such as Angels weep, burst forth. At last
Words interwove with sighs found out their way:

That bit, quoted in another book, is what made me buy PL, and I'm so glad I did.

Anyway, to swing it back to LOTR, that deception is certainly seen in OMW and the wighties. Also, as is seen in Paradise Lost, the anger at humans, and insatiable desire (Tom talks about how the thoughts of the trees are often "filled with a hatred of things that go free upon the earth" and how OMW has a "gray thirsty spirit", and in the song of the wights, "the cold was cursing the warmth for which it hungered." That's another of the "characteristics in common" that I see in the baddies of LOTR.

[Nurvingiel]

Originally Posted by azalea

[I just had to point out something: someone asked earlier if Tom could be Manwe and Goldberry Yavanna; however, Yavanna was AULE's wife! Unless there was some hanky panky going on!]

Oops... erm... *runs away* Bring in the real Sil experts! Turns out my theory wouldn't have worked anyway.

But maybe Tom is Ayule and Goldberry is Yavanna... *runs away again*

[Elanor the Fair]

Originally Posted by Linaewen

One of the reasons I enjoy LotR so much is that despite the element of grimness and misery that permeates much of the book, there are still a number of moments of joy and light-heartedness.

I couldn't agree more, Linaewen. That is exactly why I love the LOTR so much.

[Earniel]

My appreciation of Tom Bombadil and his fair lady Goldberry is quite recent. (perhaps because it didn't feature in the movie) I remember I didn't like the part in Tom Bombadil's house much in the beginning and did skip it once or twice when rereading LoTR. Now I quite enjoy it, perhaps because I can picture them now better.

Originally Posted by RÃ*an

Question 1 : The most interesting thing in this chapter, to me, was how the Ring had no power over Tom. What are people's thoughts on this?

Tom didn't put the Ring on as one would expect, he puts it round the end of his little finger. This is probably not significant but is he actually wearing the Ring? The Hobbits seem to think he is because they're all suprised to still see Tom but I'm not so sure. By putting it round the end of his little finger it seems to me that Tom doesn't play by the rules the Ring has laid out and is therefore not subject to the consequenses wearing the Ring normally would have.

Originally Posted by RÃ*an

Question 5 : An important hobbit subject - FOOD! Are Tom and Goldberry vegetarians?

Frankly I can't see Tom going out with bow and arrow to hunt or set up traps to snare coneys. Somehow I can see him fishing in the Withwindle.

About the dreams, it's quite interesting that Sam apparantly didn't dream and woke that first night. Would that be of significance? I quite like that sentence in the book: "As far as he could remember, Sam slept through the night in deep content, if logs are contented." To me it's one of these 'the Hobbit'-like glimpses that get rarer and rarer as the book progresses and that show that Tolkien was in the beginning writing a sequal to the Hobbit in the same style.

In the chapter 'Fog on the Barrowdowns' there's something that puzzles me. When they try to leave the Barrowdowns in the first evening Frodo comes to two huge standing stones, like a gate. Only he sees them because he has lost the others by then. But when Tom leads them off his land the next morning Frodo sees no sign of the two stony pillars he saw the night before. It makes me wonder what those stones were or to what they formed a gate.

Originally Posted by Nurvingiel

What if Tom is Manwe and Goldberry is Yavanna?

Then I imagine that Varda and Aulë will be very cross.

[Elanor the Fair]

When speculating about the origins of Tom Bombadil and Goldberry I think this part of the book is most significant....

"fair Lady Goldberry!" said Frodo at last, feeling his heart moved with a joy that he did not understand. He stood as he had at times stood enchanted by fair elven-voices; but the spell that was now laid upon him was different: less keen and lofty was the delight, but deeper and nearer to mortal heart; marvelous and yet not strange.

This suggests a "less lofty" origin for Goldberry - less lofty than elves so surely less lofty than a Vala or a Maia.

[Halbarad of the Dunedain]

Originally Posted by RÃ*an

Question 1 : The most interesting thing in this chapter, to me, was how the Ring had no power over Tom. What are people's thoughts on this?

People are quick to assume I think. People often forget that there are many factors to Sauron, The Ring, and Tom Bombadil. First Sauron and Tom, they both seem to have great powers, who has more... no one will ever know? Especially considering Bombadil has powers that most would not call power. Yet Tom is master, and strong he is. The Ring, it has a power of its own in striving to get to Sauron. The ring also has some misunderstood properties. The invisibility property is the main misunderstanding in that the ring does not always have more power than its bearer! Sauron wore it without loosing his visability because he had the power to bend it to his will. Bombadil I think did the same. If Tom wished to be invisible he could be. As for him seeing Frodo while he put the ring on thats not great thing, any elf could see Frodo with the ring on as well.(as is my understanding) A Maia or a Vala could no doubt see into the "Shadow World" as well. Whatever Tom is he has more power than he shows. Why Tom did not desire the ring as any other on ME would is a mystery to everyone and always will be.

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

I don't think that the elves could see into the shadow world.