The Wheel of Time

Myrdal is in Norway, and Hotel Borg is in Iceland. In June, I'm taking a trip to Norway, and on the way back I'll stop in Iceland for a couple days.

That sounds like fun. Is it visiting relatives, or something else?

I'm on Shadow Rising now... I love these books so far, but am I the only one who keeps finding similarities to Tolkien?

Nope, its just for fun.

Idril, I think that you are the only one here. I expected there to be similarities, but so far I haven't found many.

By the way, in Arthurian legends, "Sangreal" refers to what people call the Holy Grail.

Now why should I think of duct tape?

What on earth is Verin (my favourite Aes Sedai, by the way) up to? And Cadsuane for that matter.

Who's your favourite Aes Sedai?

Probably the one Lanfear died killing. I can't spell her name. (Sheepish shrug)

But I like those two as well.

That would be Moiraine. M-o-i-r-a-i-n-e.

Moiraine Sedai of House Damodred of Cairhien. Some rumours say that she didn't die. No idea what happened though.

Put me down for Moiraine too. I've always liked her best. Has anybody read Jordan's short story about Moiraine and Lan? It's really good. Answers a few questions I had about them.

No, I'm sorry I haven't read it. I don't think it's at our library yet. Is it new?

Oh, and by the way, one other little opinion I have in The Wheel of Time. These Seafolk are really getting on my nerves!

Well it's not really all that new. I read it a few years ago. It's in a short story anthology. I think the name of the collection is Books of Legends. Something to do with legends. I don't remember the exact title. Can anyone else remember it? I'm having a memory lapse here!

Anyways it's really good. I suggest you read it. And as soon as I remember the name of the book I'll let you know.

(flumps down) Well, although this is supposed to be a Tolkien board, since everyone else is talking about Jordan, I thought I might as well join in.

I am, of course, a Jordan fan, as I am a Tolkien fan, a Lewis fan, an Asimov fan, etc.

In my opinion, Jordan's writing is not QUITE as refined as Tolkien's. However, I think the reason is that, unlike Tolkien, Jordan releases his information. Tolkien took HOW many years to release the Hobbit, LoTR, and the Silmarillion? Meanwhile, Jordan's got 10-ish books out. The very slight drop in his quality is quite an acceptable tradeoff for the sheer volume of Good Reading that we get out of it. The one thing I always wished about Tolkien is that he'd written more. With Jordan, I actually have problems keeping up sometimes.

That's mainly due to the fact that I re-read the series every time a new book comes out, though.

As for the Aiel, I agree that they're like Fremen, but I don't think they resemble ancient native culture very much. For one thing, a lot of native culture surrounded buffalo- that's why the American army burned off the northern praries when they were fighting the natives; the buffalo migrated to Canada, and couldn't migrate back across land with no food. Generally speaking, I guess the attitudes of Aiel and native Americans are similar, but the background of their cultures is wildly different. The Aiel have a deep culture that makes SENSE, and that's one of the reasons I like Jordan. So many authors go "Oh, well, there's these people that I'll use as an analogy for the Warrior Spirit Of Humanity. There." Jordan, on the other hand, has a reason for them to exist.

That was Tolkien's strength, and it's Jordan's. The difference between poor and good, or good and excellent fantasy writing (speaking as a reader) is that the better classes of writing, whether they explain things or not, CAN explain things. There's so many poor books out there where you start reading, and then halfway through you wonder WHY the Mystic Kingdom Of Poontang has always been at war with the Dark Empire Of Alakazzaboo. I mean, sure, it's good versus evil, but with 500 years of war, you'd think SOMEbody would have won, or there'd be some noticable effects of the conflict like a massive dead zone at the border or something. Jordan's Poontang/Alakazzaboo conflict (borderlands/blight) has an EXPLANATION, as does his Mysterious Secret Powerful Groups (Aes Sedai), his Reborn Mystic Heroes (Hey, Rand, you're all-powerful but also insane and rotting! Hah hah!), etc. etc. etc.

And as near as I can tell, THAT'S why he can keep going over 10 books and still maintain a coherent (mostly) storyline. History, baby, history.

As for "Moiraine didn't die"... well, if she didn't, she's pretty darned crispy.

Finally, my last point, can we discuss exactly what the similarities between Tolkien and Jordan are? I agree their STYLES are similar, but I think that thematically they're massively different. Orcs and Trollocs, for instance. Yes, perversions of 'real' creautres, but where Tolkien's were part of the elven themes of "blessed but flawed" creatures and "warning to the wise about arrogance", Jordan's seem to be more of a "results of human arrogance" or "evil is a threat that can be held off with enough effort" theme. (shrugs) maybe it's just me, but I see Tolkien's work as stunningly Christian in its themes (with reason, I believe, considering who he hung out with), whereas Jordan's work is far more Humanist, though perhaps not totally so. What do you folks think?

Oh, and has anybody heard any news about the WoT RPG coming out in November?

Wot does WoT stand for? If you don't mind telling me.

Anyone else agree with me about the Seafolk being annoying? They just keep pushing the main characters around.

WoT == Wheel of Time.

annnddd... I guess they're kinda annoying, but I haven't read the most recent one or two books. Yet. I think. I'm not sure, I read a lot of books, so I may have, but I don't THINK I did.

Well, they are primarily highly irritating in the three books before Winter's Heart. They are good characters though, and I'm glad that they're in the books.

One thing's for sure. Jordan writes a LOT more about conflicts and squabbles among women than Tolkien ever did. The women don't just stick up to the men, they claw and bicker with each other as well.

Aes Sedai vs Aiel Wise Ones vs Sea Folk Windfinders vs Ebou Dari Knitting Circle vs Black Ajah vs Emond Field Girls vs Maidens of the Spear.... How does Jordan keep track of who's bickering with who? There's gotta be 10++ main women, dozens of supporting characters, etc.

Yes, I forget the names of many of the supporting chartacters who have a very minimal role. You know, it took me a long time to actually discover that Aviendha was also meant to be a main character. Now I've certainly got her pegged, but sometime I'm going to want to see the way she gets introduced to them again.

You know, about this thing in the books about women being smarter than men, I really don't think it's true. The men are every bit as intelligent as the women. And the reason that they get confused about what the women are talking about and stuff is because the women keep so many things private. Then when they mention one in the presence of a man, the man is confused and thinks that it is just women being odd. And it is basically the same way on the other side. No one seriously confides in each other except Elayne, Egwene, Nynaeve and Aviendha. Maybe there are one or two others, but everyone else keeps as much information hidden from each other as they can. Perhaps it is for good reasons, and it helps keep the Black Ajah clueless, but it really influences this superiority thing the women have over the men, as well as making everything a lot more confusing for many people.

I agree with you about the dozens of squabbles, though. Every woman in the book needs some nice calming Ogier presence.

@#%$ @#%$ time jordan finishes @#%$ books everyone will have forgotten what @#%$ first ones were about

I had a (female) friend who refused to read Jordan's books after the third, because, and I quote, "All the women are bitches!" I disagree, but I think that she had a point, albiet the opposite one she was trying to make.

Most "sci-fi babes" are either, to use Star Trek analogies, "Kirk's Bimbos" or "Captain Janeways". That is, they are either brainless tee-hee girls or they are female ubermensch (what's the german for uber-women?) who have a soft squishy side that comes out when someone dies or they meet a misunderstood alien or something. Most "fantasy babes" are either Damsels In Distress or Chainmail-Bikini-Clad Amazon Warrioresses, i.e. dumb as rocks and weak, or dumb as rocks and strong. There's a few exceptions here and there in both genres (notably The Hero's Love Interest, who does a lot of either squealing for help or saving the Hero's Butt, basically because they're STILL one of the two archetypes, just attached to the Hero), but generally I think you have a large problem identifying female characters that aren't, in a word, dumb.

You'll notice, of course, that exceptional authors treat women as "people, too". Tolkien, L'Engle, Lewis, etc. etc. Jordan is simply the most recent author to treat them as people. However, in the massively politically correct times we live in, female characters are usually portrayed in the golden hero roles that men dominated in the past. that is, totally unbelievable, utterly powerful, etc. Many times they'll take on another role, "the new-school feminist ideal", who doesn't need men and who perhaps uses them, but is tough and capable and many other things but certainly not weak or even feminine.

Jordan's female characters, I think, cause such consternation because they're exactly that- female. They have flaws, just as the men do; weaknesses in resolve, stubbornness over unimportant issues, errors in tactics. On the other hand, they have strengths, just as men do; brilliant insights, incredible inner strength, etc. However, Jordan, unlike many modern authors, does not treat them like men; they do not lift boulders, they do not pretend that they are happy being alone and without support, they do not seek out challenges just for the sake of testing themselves, etc. Jordan, unlike many classical (golden-age sci-fi, and pretty much post-victorian popular fantasy, I think) authors, does not treat women as neuters or helpless damsels. He treats them as women. Some masculine (Aviendha and her sisters), some feminine (Egwene and many of the Edmond's Field women), but all distinctly female- they mystify and are mystified by men, they giggle in corners as the boys play pranks, they solve the problems the men leave behind when they set out to 'save the world', etc.

Please understand I'm generalizing, of course- not all of Jordan's female characters act this way, and neither do all females in real life. I'm simply saying that the TREND is in this direction.

Most importantly, and I think Jordan is acutely aware of this (as evidenced by his yin-yang explanation of the five powers), men and women complement each other. You will see men doing things that women will not or cannot do, and women doing things that men will not or cannot do. Lan and Moiraine come instantly to mind, and though I haven't read the most recent books I suspect Lan and Nynaeve will as well. Neither one is superior to the other, but neither can survive well, and certainly not thrive, without the other. It seems to me that this whole "war of the sexes" thing has been blown out of proportion, from friendly, joking, mutually understood-to-be-ironic rivaly to something where both sides are accusing the other of trying to gain "the upper hand", as if such a thing could be had. However, as we are saturated with modern media's portrayals of men and women as combantants against each other (hookers and pimps and cops, or rapists and victims, or bosses that are one sex and their employees that are the other, or any other variation on the theme of social marxism), a book series like Jordan's that ignores the concept of struggle between the sexes seems very odd. I think that he's much closer to the truth than many people suspect.

That said, I think that the conflict-between-characters/groups-of-female-persuasion MIGHT be getting a little excessive, but hey, conflict is what generates a fun story.

I shall end my long-winded rant now, with the reminder that this is simply my opinion, and not an attack on anyone else's worldview- or political leanings, or anything else.

I really liked how Moiraine's relationship with Rand developed. Especially around the end of their contact with each other it was good.

I've never read the Eye of the World, although I have read all of the others. I'm going to have to look out for it, I think. I'm rather curious as to how this beginning stuff developed.