Finrod Felagund is the coolest Elven king (the one in the Silmarillion I mean)

[Blackheart]

Originally posted by Sister Golden Hair
Where does it say that?

Actually he was under the curse of Morgoth.

Hurin's last act as Melkor's thrall was to bring him the necklace...

Draw your own conclusions.

Oh and Finrod?

Sorry. Fingolfin had more balls.

But then, talking about the best elf is a bit like talking about the smartest monkey.

It's all relative.

[Sister Golden Hair]

Um, excuse me. Fingolfin may have fought your boyfriend in single combat, but he hardly had the wisdom or brilliance that Finrod had. Sorry.

[Blackheart]

Yes. I do love myself little one. Never forget it.

Wisdom and brilliance to dig a deep hole and hide in it eh?

Oh, and to get himself captured and whacked to save some tart's man.

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally posted by Blackheart
Yes. I do love myself little one. Never forget it.

Wisdom and brilliance to dig a deep hole and hide in it eh?

Oh, and to get himself captured and whacked to save some tart's man.

You know, It usually isn't a good idea to say ugly things about Finrod to me. If you are refering to Nargothrond then Thingol must be guilty of that, and Ulmo must be a real jerk for telling Finrod to do it. Give me a break. Talk to me about Finrod when you have something to say.

[Ñólendil]

I have something to say SGH:

I really wish Thingol would have slapped his peskly little nephew around a bit. You know, show him who's The-Tallest-Person-In-The-World. Let him know who's The-High-King-Of-Beleriand and that sort of thing.

[Blackheart]

Originally posted by Sister Golden Hair
You know, It usually isn't a good idea to say ugly things about Finrod to me. If you are refering to Nargothrond then Thingol must be guilty of that, and Ulmo must be a real jerk for telling Finrod to do it. Give me a break. Talk to me about Finrod when you have something to say.

Never liked Ulmo anyway, always dripping on the carpet at meetings. As for Thingol I blame Melian for that.

However I do have something to say. The jocular tone expressed earlier seems to have evaporated, and you demand substance. So be it.

The stone hewer forsook his advice from Ulmo, built a strong hold (as did Turgon), and then left his kingdom in the hands of unscroupulous nobles (sons of Feanor) in order to uphold his vow.

If Fingolfin sacrificed himself out of despair and vainglory, at least there was a clear heir, and the end was more noble.

Finrod however, sacrificed himself (and he did know he was going to his doom) for honor, another form of pride (and arguably vainglory). He left no heir, and only a weak succesion, and the leadership of Nargrothond was in doubt. Which caused problems later. Bad problems.

I don't see that as wisdom, nor significantly different from Fingolfin. He was just more resgined and calculated about it.

Secondly, he dueled with Sauron. In sorcery, or arcanus if you will. It wasn't quite the battle that Fingolfin had. It was with the leftenant of Morgoth, and lacked somewhat in nobility, though he did manage to kill the werewolf.

If you wish to argue his other accomplishments then by all means, lets do so. I think I can provide serious discussion if that's what you prefer.

[Sister Golden Hair]

My dear Blackheart, let me appologize for my earlier outburst. It was actually meant in jest, but I neglectfully left out the smilies.

I believe this, all the Noldor were tainted by the Doom of Mandos including Finrod, Fingolfin, and every other of the princes and princesses of the Noldor. None of them were capable of defeating the evil side but would all give it their best shot. I don't think that makes Fingolfin a better Elf, warrior, or king then Finrod was, and the same is true of the reverse. Finrod did not defy the words of Ulmo, he did exactly as he was told to do, which was to find or build a hidden fortress in the event evil struck, which he did with Thingol's aid. Turgon had problems and Ulmo had to come to him again and guide him. Saying things like "Finrod dug a hole to hide in" sounds cowardly and selfish. Finrod delved Nargothrond for the safety of his people not just himself. Furthermore, the realm of Nargothrond was the largest in all of Beleriand and guarded well from the Guarded Plain, Amon Ethir that Finrod raised with great labor, and the Pass of Sirion from Minas Tirith, which was lost I believe in the breaking of the Siege of Angband. Also, Finrod had no children, and left his rule to his nephew as a Steward, not as king. Finrod didn't intend on not returning, and Orodreth did not take the kingship of Nargothrond until after Finrod's death. I think it is Orodreth's week will to be so easily influenced by Turin was what caused Nargothrond's demise. This had little to do with Finrod.

Hithlum was first established and became the place of the High Kingship after Fingolfin accepted it from Meadhros, but the other major Noldorin kingdoms were all hidden. Does it matter so much that it was underground? Does that make Turgon braver then Finrod because his was not? I don't think so. And I think all of our Noldorin heros are guilty of making some bad choices. "Digging a hole to hide in" Seems to me an unfair way of saying things about a guy that truly was as great as any of the princes of the Noldor.

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally posted by Ñólendil
I have something to say SGH:

I really wish Thingol would have slapped his peskly little nephew around a bit. You know, show him who's The-Tallest-Person-In-The-World. Let him know who's The-High-King-Of-Beleriand and that sort of thing.

Nolendil, I always overlook anything you have to say about Finrod.

[Ñólendil]

The demise of Nargothrond does have something to do with Finrod. Finrod knew very well he was going to his death. He told Galadriel that he would swear an oath and it would bring about his end. He perceived that it had come upon him at last when he was talking with Beren. He also knew that nothing of his realm "would endure that a son should inherit".

Granted, the destruction of Nargothrond had much more to do with Arothir and Túrin -- and actually Morgoth and Glaurung when you get down to it.

But I don't think Finrod did what he did for his own honor (unless you mean: integrity), not for public esteem or anything like that. He was honoring an oath he had made, he was helping out a good friend for a noble cause, as romantic and absurd as that cause may sound. He was also paying back his debts. He owed Beren's father his life and he gave it.

There's no arguing Findaráto's wisdom. Tolkien himself named him the wisest of the Elves of his day (in Middle-earth).

[Sister Golden Hair]

The demise of Nargothrond does have something to do with Finrod. Finrod knew very well he was going to his death. He told Galadriel that he would swear an oath and it would bring about his end. He perceived that it had come upon him at last when he was talking with Beren. He also knew that nothing of his realm "would endure that a son should inherit".

Finrod had a foresight of his death and destruction of Nargothrond as he spoke to Galadriel. It does say that he knew that his doom was upon him when he was speaking to Beren. This does not mean that in Finrod's mind this was the time. He only suspected that it might be. When he took the crown of Nargothrond and cast it at his feet, and Edrahil picks it up and asks that it be given to a steward to govern in Finrod's place til his return, Finrod takes the crown and gives it to Orodreth to " govern in his stead" Orodreth never claims the kingship until he knows that Finrod is indeed dead. Finrod had no way of Knowing for sure that this was his time. As for the fall of Nargothrond, how was he in anyway responsible? He only knew that it would happen. What could he have done to stop it? It was in the cards.

[Christiana]

Finrodj and Fingolfin and Gil-galad and Fingon are all cool!

[Blackheart]

Well that's my point. If he strongly suspected he was going to his doom, he might have spent a bit more time choosing a better succesor...

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally posted by Blackheart
Well that's my point. If he strongly suspected he was going to his doom, he might have spent a bit more time choosing a better succesor...

It just didn't work that way. Finrod had no children, and his brothers had been killed. Orodreth was the next in line.

[Blackheart]

Originally posted by Sister Golden Hair
It just didn't work that way. Finrod had no children, and his brothers had been killed. Orodreth was the next in line.

Then he should have got on his duty with the booty! And produced an heir.

[Sister Golden Hair]

I hate it that Orodreth had to take his place. Can you imagine if Orodreth had lived, he would have been High King. YIKES!

[Narwen Mithwing]

That is a scary thought!

[Ñólendil]

Worked out well for his son.

[Sister Golden Hair]

Yeah, Gil-galad was cool.

[BeardofPants]

Another one on the Finrod bandwagon... for the reasons all stated above.

[Beruthiel]

Oh, the whole story is SO sad......*breaks down on false tears*
But really, I cried when I read of Finrod Felagund and Fingolfin's deaths! It's horrible...really....
Such tragedy! Reminds me of Hamlet's last scene...Fortinbras walks in, and everybody was dead!