The media

[Spock]

Originally Posted by hectorberlioz

Meanwhile, don't profile anybody because it hurts their feelings,....... .........., but so far the cases I've heard of have involved....Muslim terrorists. .

It's not called profiling; it's called A DESCRIPTION OF THE SUSPECTS!

[brownjenkins]

Originally Posted by hectorberlioz

I sure have BJenkins. I suscribe to "not all Muslims are terrorists, but nearly all terrorists are Muslim". I've made up my mind about Terrorists, namely that they are exploiting their own race's innocence and religion in the name of maniacal idiocy.

But can you understand how generalizing that "nearly all terrorists are Muslim" (even if it is true)

a) does not address the real causes behind terrorism

b) puts muslims of all kinds on the defensive, and thus unlikely to sympathize with anything further you might say

If I said, "not all Entmooters are idiots, but nearly every idiot I've ever met has been at Entmoot", wouldn't you start wondering who I was talking about? And maybe even start thinking, "that jerk BJ, he thinks we are all idiots".

If I felt like I must make that kind of statement, better not to generalize in any kind of way. Unless, of course, I don't particularly care one way or another about the people I am generalizing about.

[Spock]

Originally Posted by brownjenkins

But can you understand how generalizing that "nearly all terrorists are Muslim" (even if it is true)

a) does not address the real causes behind terrorism

b) puts muslims of all kinds on the defensive, and thus unlikely to sympathize with anything further you might say

If I said, "not all Entmooters are idiots, but nearly every idiot I've ever met has been at Entmoot", wouldn't you start wondering who I was talking about? And maybe even start thinking, "that jerk BJ, he thinks we are all idiots".

If I felt like I must make that kind of statement, better not to generalize in any kind of way. Unless, of course, I don't particularly care one way or another about the people I am generalizing about.

Ibid:

Never argue with an idiot. They bring you down to their level and beat you with experience.

[hectorberlioz]

Originally Posted by brownjenkins

But can you understand how generalizing that "nearly all terrorists are Muslim" (even if it is true)

I understand that it is not meant to describe all Muslims, it is meant to point out a fact.

a) does not address the real causes behind terrorism

Neither does standing behind the line and waiting for the terrorists to move first.

b) puts muslims of all kinds on the defensive, and thus unlikely to sympathize with anything further you might say

It might; on the other hand, I wasn't suggesting Muslims look to me for advice: I only say what I think should be done along with opinions. I'm not promoting that line for mass product...

If I said, "not all Entmooters are idiots, but nearly every idiot I've ever met has been at Entmoot", wouldn't you start wondering who I was talking about? And maybe even start thinking, "that jerk BJ, he thinks we are all idiots".

Well first of all, you've chosen a small world: Entmoot. You'd be wrong to say "nearly every idiot is an entmootian" -as you well know that Entmoot does not make up the majority of anything- as a comparison to my original quote. Islam is one of the largest religions in the world however, as compared to Entmoot's few thousand members.

If I felt like I must make that kind of statement, better not to generalize in any kind of way. Unless, of course, I don't particularly care one way or another about the people I am generalizing about.

*sigh* You seem to concentrate on the actual phrasing of the quote more than what it means for real...
It reminds me of the interview with the CAIR spokesperson that Bill O'Reilly had on one morning, he tried to explain that Bush's use of "Fascist" was wrong, as if THAT was the issue to die for! Meanwhile he didn't say squat about the foiled plot, didn't condemn it, but he wants to reprimand Bush about a little phrasing?

1) That quote does not get spread around too much via mainstream media, so I'm not worried that Sayid in Detroit, who is a perfectly good fellow, is going to care what Bob out in the woods and far away from CNN said.

2) What is the solution to catching terrorists at airports, is it not to background people?

[hectorberlioz]

Originally Posted by Spock

Ibid:

Never argue with an idiot. They bring you down to their level and beat you with experience.

If that's supposed to be for me....

Originally Posted by Spock

It's not called profiling; it's called A DESCRIPTION OF THE SUSPECTS!

Spock...I was putting myself in a straw man's phrasing to make a point. I don't actually believe that every Muslim is a crybaby who'll weep his heart out if he gets asked a few questions.

[Spock]

Ahhh.

[Insidious Rex]

Originally Posted by hectorberlioz

Meanwhile, don't profile anybody because it hurts their feelings

Racial profiling isn’t even necessary. Why are you so obsessed with it exactly? It will only cause you more trouble in the long run. By far the most intelligent way to handle it is be consistent. Don’t allow the terrorists ANY loop holes.

and thus wait and find out who is who in the bloody mess of ten hijacked planes with nearly 3000 dead?

Hector, this case was not broken in an airport… The terrorists never made it to the airport so your argument is meaningless. They were discovered because of bank transactions. They followed the money. They didn’t see them and said hey they look arab! After them!

A problem is that the airport checkers are cowards and pick on people who look harmless.

What do you base this on? How many airport checkers have let terrorists on board aircraft since 9-11 exactly?

Al Qaeda already did get some formerly non-muslims, as you may know a few of the foiled terrorists were british converts to Islam. They weren't blond-haired blue-eyed...

But you can rest assured they already have or are actively persuing blond haired blue eyed folk into their cult. Don’t think for a second there aren’t plenty of white or non arab Americans weak minded enough to do such a thing. Have we already forgotten about John Lindh, Adam Gadahn and Jose Padilla among others?

I'll tell you the real freaking problem: and it's not ethnic profiling. The problem is we're all too scared to aknowledge who our enemy is. There MAY be blond haired terrorists ready to strike, but so far the cases I've heard of have involved....Muslim terrorists.

And clearly your problem is your inability to keep straight RACE and RELIGION because there are thousands of blond haired muslims (as well as asian and African and pretty much any nationality you can name). Hard to acknowledge your enemy when you assume its an either blonde or muslim choice…

Seattle shooting: Muslim extremist kills One Jewish woman (pregnant, btw) and wounds 6 others (all Jewish, presumably).
Recent Airplane plot foiled: All Muslims, some converts to Islam.

So again what are you saying here? That we should only hassle Muslims? How do we do that exactly? Make them wear a gold crescent on their clothing everywhere?

[Spock]

Originally Posted by Insidious Rex

So again what are you saying here? That we should only hassle Muslims? How do we do that exactly? Make them wear a gold crescent on their clothing everywhere?

Gee, it worked for Adolf

[GreyMouser]

Originally Posted by Spock

It's not called profiling; it's called A DESCRIPTION OF THE SUSPECTS!

How is "Muslim" a physical description? Black, white, Middle Eastern, South Asian, East Asian... those are (very rough) descriptions

Richard Reid, shoe bomber- Jamaican mother, white father- look at his picture, could be Italian

Jose Padilla- Puerto Rican

I (somewhat) agree on racial profiling- after all, when police started looking for the abortion bomber, they pretty well figured him for a white male.

OTOH, if I was a young Middle-Eastern-looking-type who had been hauled out of the line for the fifteenth time while everybody else walked by, I might start having some violent feelings myself.

It's been pointed out that one reason why there are no home-grown terrorists among American Muslims is that, to a much greater degree than in Europe , they have been accepted as just another group of immigrants like the Italians, Greeks, Poles etc before them.

You might want to think twice before changing that.

[Spock]

Profiling involves much more than looking for a person carrying a Koran and wearing a towel on their head.

See I did think about it.

[brownjenkins]

Originally Posted by hectorberlioz

2) What is the solution to catching terrorists at airports, is it not to background people?

Putting a system into place that treats every person as a potential terrorist is the only way to curb terrorism via air travel. Profiling only makes it easier for the terrorists, because if you are spending more time on one kind of person, you are spending less on another.

But the real solution is addressing the root causes of terrorism. Stop supporting monarchies in the Middle East. Stop selling weapons to Israel. Spend more time developing the economies in the Middle East and less time either destroying them or just making a quick profit off of them.

[Spock]

Originally Posted by brownjenkins

Putting a system into place that treats every person as a potential terrorist is the only way to curb terrorism via air travel. Profiling only makes it easier for the terrorists, because if you are spending more time on one kind of person, you are spending less on another.

Agree 100%

Originally Posted by brownjenkins

(1)But the real solution is addressing the root causes of terrorism. (2)Stop supporting monarchies in the Middle East. (3)Stop selling weapons to Israel. (4)Spend more time developing the economies in the Middle East and less time either destroying them or just making a quick profit off of them.

Impossible; They support themselves, our monies are just gravy; Israel is as to New Jersey is to the rest of the US, there is that many more 'arabs' that would like to eliminate the few, someone MUST help Israel; We don't belong in the Middle East and they don't want us there. They want us to buy their oil before they kill us all but that is another matter.

[Spock]

Quick stats about ourselves:

The Moots best day for people on line was most users ever online was 470, 07-17-2005 at 04:34 PM and we have 3,810 members.


Compare that to some other board I visit: Most users ever online was 1,451, 8 July 2006 at 03:49 pm. Total Forum Membership: 17,130 registered members

So you can see, we are (as the Geiko gekko says "family").

you never know when someone from the media might look at this.

[brownjenkins]

Originally Posted by Spock

someone MUST help Israel

Why?

[hectorberlioz]

Originally Posted by Insidious Rex

Racial profiling isn’t even necessary. Why are you so obsessed with it exactly? It will only cause you more trouble in the long run. By far the most intelligent way to handle it is be consistent. Don’t allow the terrorists ANY loop holes.

Ok, so let's do it the hard way. Take everyone into the back and strip them down completely to see if they have any jelly explosives in their diapers.

Hector, this case was not broken in an airport… The terrorists never made it to the airport so your argument is meaningless. They were discovered because of bank transactions. They followed the money. They didn’t see them and said hey they look arab! After them!

Ok, but I called it that because they WERE GOING to the airport, and they were planning on blowing up ten planes. It did have to do with air travel a little.

What do you base this on? How many airport checkers have let terrorists on board aircraft since 9-11 exactly?

Who knows? Maybe they let on quite a few. As you say...you can't tell when you assume they're all middle-eastern.

But you can rest assured they already have or are actively persuing blond haired blue eyed folk into their cult. Don’t think for a second there aren’t plenty of white or non arab Americans weak minded enough to do such a thing. Have we already forgotten about John Lindh, Adam Gadahn and Jose Padilla among others?

You forgot the ACLU...

And clearly your problem is your inability to keep straight RACE and RELIGION because there are thousands of blond haired muslims (as well as asian and African and pretty much any nationality you can name). Hard to acknowledge your enemy when you assume its an either blonde or muslim choice…

Rex, in the middle-east, religion and race are interlaced intricately. You know I don't believe every Muslim is a terrorist. I've said it many times...but alas, cherry picking.

So again what are you saying here? That we should only hassle Muslims? How do we do that exactly? Make them wear a gold crescent on their clothing everywhere?

Not only, perhaps...but you assume that it is an impossible and evil task to make sure people with bombs strapped to their buttocks aren't prowling around in airports.
i'm really sorry Rex, that Muslims in general have to be painted this or that way because of some jerks, but I don't think it's evil to do some profiling.

[Lizra]

I would imagine some racial profiling is going on, to some extent...don't you think everyone who looks suspicious gets checked out? Isn't that what the airport checkers are paid to do?

[Insidious Rex]

Originally Posted by hectorberlioz

Ok, so let's do it the hard way. Take everyone into the back and strip them down completely to see if they have any jelly explosives in their diapers.

Are you saying thats how we should be treating muslims?

Not only, perhaps...but you assume that it is an impossible and evil task to make sure people with bombs strapped to their buttocks aren't prowling around in airports.

I think its a great idea to keep people with explosives out of airports. I think its a bad idea to go after people as bombers based on their religion.

i'm really sorry Rex, that Muslims in general have to be painted this or that way because of some jerks, but I don't think it's evil to do some profiling.

Not evil. Just short sighted and reactionary and ultimately not worth the effort. It will make things worse then if you hadnt done it in the first place.
But for the moment it makes you feel good going after "them".

[Butterbeer]

Kinda like Elmur Phuud, huh?

[Last Child of Ungoliant]

Originally Posted by spock

someone MUST help Israel

someone MUST help Lebanon, and Palestine, they aint all terrorists, ya know

[hectorberlioz]

Originally Posted by Insidious Rex

Are you saying thats how we should be treating muslims?



I think its a great idea to keep people with explosives out of airports. I think its a bad idea to go after people as bombers based on their religion.



Not evil. Just short sighted and reactionary and ultimately not worth the effort. It will make things worse then if you hadnt done it in the first place.
But for the moment it makes you feel good going after "them".

I was referring to everyone with the "Strip 'em down" idea. And it was a joke. Not very funny, but a joke nevertheless.

Hmm...IRex I think you've gotten a bit mixed up yourself...I thought you said we shouldn't go after people just because they look middle-eastern, and now you say we shouldn't go after them because of their religion? I think you might have stumbled on one of my points.

Originally Posted by Last Child of Ungoliant

someone MUST help Lebanon, and Palestine, they aint all terrorists, ya know

Yes of course, we should help the civilian people.

But not EVERYONE should be anti-Israel, and I feel that some countries no longer care about Israel demise. It WAS the British after all, who conquered the land that is Isreal/Palestine. They captured it from the Ottoman Empire. The U.N. (or League of Nations back then, I'm not sure...) gave that land to them because of their history with it. It infuriates me that Kofi Annan gets away with calling Israel's mistaken bombing of UN people in Lebanon "intentional", and yet President Bush is fried for calling terrorists "Islamo Fascists".
"It's alright to be anti-israel, but don't you DARE call Terrorists 'Islamic Fascists'."