Gays, lesbians, bisexuals, PART II

[Butterbeer]

depends if you are swimmin' in the local swimmin baths , or Gym, or are out in de open sea ...

[Huorn]

Originally Posted by brownjenkins

Better yet. Abolish marriage as a civil institution all together.

And that would be treading upon the rights of those who wish to marry and forcing upon them a lifestyle they do not desire.

I have been reading through this thread for a day now. For the most part the discussion has been civil and intelligent.

I will begin by saying every person has the right to choose what they do with their life, whether those decisions be considered wise or foolish by others.

Let me introduce to you R. E. Woods-Marks, the real person behind Entwife Oak

.

Now Entwife Oak is a very poor choice of username for me. As I get into this post you will understand why.

I was one of a pair of identical twins. My folks thought that each of us needed to have our own identities. My sister was given the frilly dresses, the flowers and makeup as she got older. I got jeans, plaid shirts, cowboy boots, belts and belt buckles. Her hair, for the most part was allowed to grow very long. Mine was often cut shorter as I approached maturity. My Aunt further encouraged this separation of identity. My physical development was even influenced by this treatment. I became the athletic muscular twin. Volleyball was my sport. The opposite team dreaded when it came my turn to serve the ball. I was known as an 'Ace'. I did not rely on drugs to propel my performance in sports. As I got older I was diagnosed with PCOS because of my masculine attributes.

While growing up, when we as children played 'house'. I played the father role. I was given Ken instead of Barbie. I usually played with toy soldiers and guns instead of dolls. Today I am the one to fix the lawnmower, mows the 3/4 acre lawn, buries the electric cable for the electric dog fence, shovels the snow and does all the grunt outdoor work on our property.

Even into adulthood there is very little feminine about me. I am now 45 and now for all intents and purposes bald. Just a fine down covers the top of my head. The whiskers on my upper lip are courser than what's on my head. Perhaps my upbringing and personality so influenced my development that I hardly look like a woman. My twin on the other hand has a full head of flowing locks, has 5 children and has a full matronly build.

Why do I go into all this detail. Most women with my background choose the lifepath of bisexuality or lesbianism. That was not what I wanted out of life. I am one of those 'detestible' Christians. The road of Christ was what I wanted out of life. I have now been married to the same man for 23 years and have an 18 year old son. I have run into a lot of uphill flak from in laws and friends. I will probably get more flak from people in this thread. But it goes back to what I said at the start of this thread. Every person has the right to choose what they do with their life. I have made my choice and I don't regret it.

Now about names: Huorn probably would have been a better username for me.

[hectorberlioz]

*thumbs ups Huorness*

Brave and Steadfast

[Arien the Maia]

Originally Posted by hectorberlioz

*thumbs ups Huorness*

Brave and Steadfast

I agree! go you!

[The Gaffer]

Originally Posted by Entwife_Oak

Every person has the right to choose what they do with their life. I have made my choice and I don't regret it.

Couldn't agree more. Thanks for sharing your story.

What's PCOS?

[Huorn]

Polycystic Ovarian Syndrome. The body makes male hormones. The woman often balds like me and gets whiskers like me. It even effects her neurological development.

They say the woman are multi taskers where as men are single taskers. I am a single tasker. I cannot cook worth a darn because that is a multi tasking job. My son is a better book than me! I flunked Home Economics in Junior High School.

Tests have been done on me and I have been told that I am not wired like a woman. Did my upbringing do this to me? Who knows.

[brownjenkins]

Never believe tests. I'm a great cook.

Much better than my wife, and she's pretty girlie.

[Insidious Rex]

Originally Posted by Entwife_Oak

Polycystic Ovarian Syndrome. The body makes male hormones. The woman often balds like me and gets whiskers like me. It even effects her neurological development.

Have you had this all your life or do you think this was influenced by how you were treated as a child? Quite the chicken or egg question...

And if I may ask a personal question, do you find other women attractive at all?

[Huorn]

In my earlier development I did. I think it is a stage many go through. Now I don't. They are unnappealing to me. Women often times remind me of cats, which I dislike. Men on the other hand are something entirely different. They are now very attractive to me. On man in particular is attractive to me. I am strongly attracted to my husband. That is why I believe that sexual orientation is largely influenced by environmental factors.

[Butterbeer]

hey, nice picture!

best, BB x

[Huorn]

Yeah it one of my better pics. I almost never let anyone photograph me up close, though. I wouldn't look so nice!

I finnaly went ahead and did it after three years on the moot. I am dropping the Entwife account. So here is my new and more appropriate Moot name.

[Lief Erikson]

Originally Posted by Entwife_Oak

In my earlier development I did. I think it is a stage many go through. Now I don't. They are unnappealing to me. Women often times remind me of cats, which I dislike. Men on the other hand are something entirely different. They are now very attractive to me. On man in particular is attractive to me. I am strongly attracted to my husband. That is why I believe that sexual orientation is largely influenced by environmental factors.

I very much agree too. That's why you have places from history like Sparta, where virtually the entire nation was homosexual. Homosexuality was culturally "the thing", and heterosexuality was despised. They actually shaved the woman and covered her with filth and forced the man who was to be her husband to have sex with her surrounded by all his peers, so that he would get the maximum displeasure out of the experience. That's how far their emphasis on the wonder of the homosexual relationship went. It was the Spartan environment, because men were supposed to be soldier companions to one another. Because of those martial bonds, homosexuality and pedophelia became strongly supported in the culture. So in that environment, all the males were homosexual.

Very wierd what kinds of things humanity dreams up.

[Huorn]

Lief Erickson, That is interesting. In that scenario you would have very few people producing children. It was probably the downfall of the Spartans. In their culture, their individual rights were trodden underfoot. They were forcefully conditioned to accept a certain pattern of behaviour.

[Lief Erikson]

Originally Posted by Huorn

Lief Erickson, That is interesting. In that scenario you would have very few people producing children. It was probably the downfall of the Spartans. In their culture, their individual rights were trodden underfoot. They were forcefully conditioned to accept a certain pattern of behaviour.

You did have children, but it was forced. The Spartans acknowledged male/female sexual relations as necessary for procreation. The pleasure side of it was crushed.

[Gwaimir Windgem]

Originally Posted by Lief Erikson

I very much agree too. That's why you have places from history like Sparta, where virtually the entire nation was homosexual.

In ancient Greece as a whole, the great majority of men, at any rate, were bisexual, but apparently predominantly pederastic. I can't speak about the orientation of Spartans in particular, except that I see no reason from my reading of the ancient Greeks and Romans to doubt that they conformed to the Hellenic norm.

Homosexuality was culturally "the thing", and heterosexuality was despised.

I doubt that. Pederasty (let's use the most precise term, shall we?) was certainly culturally "the thing"; an eligible man who did not love a boy (read "adolescent male", not prepubescent) was fined. However, actual homosexual coitus appears to have been forbidden (Cicero); the Spartan pederasty, like the Platonic, seems to have been one devoid of the sex act, with only erotic desire.

They actually shaved the woman and covered her with filth and forced the man who was to be her husband to have sex with her surrounded by all his peers, so that he would get the maximum displeasure out of the experience.

I don't recall reading that they shaved the woman and covered her with filth; citation, please. But as to the marital act itself, Plutarch's Lives seem to relate basically the opposite, that the man was supposed to sneak out of his barracks and come to his wife by the still of night to make love to her, rather than making it a public affair. Much the same way that stealing was encouraged, but those who were caught were thrashed for incompetence. Everything was training to the Spartans.

That's how far their emphasis on the wonder of the homosexual relationship went. It was the Spartan environment, because men were supposed to be soldier companions to one another.

Actually, the idea behind Greek, including Spartan, pederasty was that the older lover would act as a guide, teacher, and mentor to his adolescent beloved.

[Lief Erikson]

You know, Gwaimir, I suspect that the reason you're arguing with me is that you've read about Greece as a whole, of which Sparta was a part, and you're making assumptions about Spartan life based on what you've read about normal Greek life.

I'll tell you what I was told about Sparta in my Honors History 185 European Civilization class (in which I got an A).

Originally Posted by Gwaimir Windgem

In ancient Greece as a whole, the great majority of men, at any rate, were bisexual, but apparently predominantly pederastic. I can't speak about the orientation of Spartans in particular, except that I see no reason from my reading of the ancient Greeks and Romans to doubt that they conformed to the Hellenic norm.

The Spartans were pederastic, but their culture also had a very heavy emphasis on homosexuality.

Originally Posted by Gwaimir Windgem

Pederasty (let's use the most precise term, shall we?) was certainly culturally "the thing"; an eligible man who did not love a boy (read "adolescent male", not prepubescent) was fined.

That's more extreme than I'd imagined their pederasty went. Interesting to know.

Originally Posted by Gwaimir Windgem

However, actual homosexual coitus appears to have been forbidden (Cicero); the Spartan pederasty, like the Platonic, seems to have been one devoid of the sex act, with only erotic desire.

Here's a quote on the subject from Wikipedia.

Ancient sources suggest a range of sexual activity. Cicero, describing Spartan customs, suggests that relations were expected to stop short of consummation, "The Lacedaemonians, while they permit all things except outrage [hybris] in the love of youths, certainly distinguish the forbidden by a thin wall of partition from the sanctioned, for they allow embraces and a common couch to lovers."[15] On the other hand, one Athenian term for sodomy was "to do it the Lacedemonian way." Literary sources are a lot more risqué, especially ancient comedy. For example, Aristophanes, in 'Peace', his parody of Ganymede riding on the back of Zeus in eagle form, has his character ride to Olympus on the back of a dung beetle, a scatological pun on anal sex. Some modern historians, such as Thornton, conclude that whether the relationship was consummated or not probably depended on the partners.

But anyway, this isn't really what I was talking about in my post. I was referring to homosexuality between adults, not pederasty. Though I knew that pedastry was also common throughout Greece.

Originally Posted by Gwaimir Windgem

Quote:
Homosexuality was culturally "the thing", and heterosexuality was despised.


I doubt that.

My citation is my History Honors class professor Bill Cuddihy.

I don't recall reading that they shaved the woman and covered her with filth; citation, please.

The same citation.

Originally Posted by Gwaimir Windgem

Everything was training to the Spartans.

Indeed! That is certainly true. The Spartan civilization was entirely focused upon combat- even the women were trained in athletics and spear throwing. The Spartans were unique among most ancient civilizations in that they trained the women for combat, though really only just to defend themselves. The women weren't taken into warfare.

The way the Spartan soldiers were trained (again, according to my History Honors class), men were coupled together to be combat partners. Their bond was celebrated, a bond of soldiers. The two trained together and entered war together. They also were sexual partners. Homosexuality was part of the structure of the Spartan army.

Originally Posted by Gwaimir Windgem

But as to the marital act itself, Plutarch's Lives seem to relate basically the opposite, that the man was supposed to sneak out of his barracks and come to his wife by the still of night to make love to her, rather than making it a public affair.

Was this Greeks in general, or did it say that it was talking about the Spartans specifically?

Here's a quote from this website (http://www.mnsu.edu/emuseum/prehisto...taculture.html) about Spartan marriage:

Originally Posted by EMuseum @ Minnesota State University, Mankato

After the krypteia, the men were expected to marry. Marriage was stressed highly in Spartan society, specifically in the proliferation of young healthy children. However, the marriage ceremony for a Spartan man and woman was not highly ritualized. The woman was abducted in the night, her head would be shaved, and she was made to wear men's clothing and lye on a straw pallet in the dark. The groom afterward would return to the barrack of young men, and would have little or no contact with the bride from thereafter, save for purely procreative visits. A Spartan male could have multiple wives, (anthropologically known as polygamy) but lived mostly amongst his mess and barrack mates with little connection to the opposite sex. Until the age of thirty or onward, a Spartan man's life was entirely dedicated to his state and to the army.

Originally Posted by Gwaimir Windgem

Actually, the idea behind Greek, including Spartan, pederasty was that the older lover would act as a guide, teacher, and mentor to his adolescent beloved.

I was talking about the homosexual bonds between soldiers, not about child-adult relationships.

[Gwaimir Windgem]

Originally Posted by Lief Erikson

You know, Gwaimir, I suspect that the reason you're arguing with me is that you've read about Greece as a whole, of which Sparta was a part, and you're making assumptions about Spartan life based on what you've read about normal Greek life.

I've also read specifically about Sparta. Don't sell me short.

I'll tell you what I was told about Sparta in my Honors History 185 European Civilization class (in which I got an A).

Don't just accept what people tell you; go to the source.

The Spartans were pederastic, but their culture also had a very heavy emphasis on homosexuality.

That's more extreme than I'd imagined their pederasty went. Interesting to know.

But remember, sodomy was illegal. Of course, until not too long ago, sodomy was illegal here, too, and sodomy defined in such a way as to include oral sex, as well as anal sex, transcending gender...the law was struck down in one state, I recall, because the case was made that it made the vast majority of the population habitual law-breakers. Sodomy is still illegal in some United States, but I don't believe anyone's being charged with it for a long time. The point being, many laws are effectively ignored. Oscar Wilde flaunted his homosexuality to Victorian Society for a good while before he was charged, and even then it was only by a seriously unbalanced individual with a personal vendetta against him.

But anyway, this isn't really what I was talking about in my post. I was referring to homosexuality between adults, not pederasty. Though I knew that pedastry was also common throughout Greece.

All right then.

Indeed! That is certainly true. The Spartan civilization was entirely focused upon combat- even the women were trained in athletics and spear throwing.

Both sexes trained in the nude, for a stark departure from regular Greek practice.

The way the Spartan soldiers were trained (again, according to my History Honors class), men were coupled together to be combat partners. Their bond was celebrated, a bond of soldiers. The two trained together and entered war together. They also were sexual partners. Homosexuality was part of the structure of the Spartan army.

I certainly won't deny that.

Was this Greeks in general, or did it say that it was talking about the Spartans specifically?

Spartans; this is in Plutarch's Life of Lycurgus, the Lawgiver of Sparta, in which he goes into some detail on the Spartan laws and customs.

[BeardofPants]

Gwaimir has a point y'know - you should always, ALWAYS go to the primary sources over the secondary sources.

[Jonathan]

Thank you very much Entwife/Huorn for sharing your story.
The fact that your and your identical twin's upbringings were so interestingly different and that only you developed POCS made me spend the last hour or so searching for and skimming through medical articles about environmental risk factors associated with POCS.

Lol, I'm a med student nerd

[Butterbeer]

Lief, i would seriously examine your single somewhat oddly slanted quirky source of a teacher somewhat ...

also, beware of then adding your own slant (in your own reading of it on top of that angle as relayed by one man ...) in terms of evidential material. Neither would i rate wikipedia too highly in this regard either.

... mind you there were only 500 spartans against the might of the east!