Are stupid outlandish names necessary in sci-fi/fantasy? - Page 3

jerseydevil · 03-24-2003, 01:16 AM

Missing posts...

Elvengirl...

Quote:

Re: Sauron comparison with Finrod Felagund

Quote:

Originally posted by Maedhros
First, lets see a little background on Sauron:
Sauron was one of the Ainur, and was noble and good at the beginning. Of course Sauron was a former maiar of Aulë and had plenty of skill as a craftsmen, unlike FF.

Finrod did have skill as a craftsman. Why do you think he was called Felagund. Tolkien does say that he was more interested in matters of thought than with skill of hand though.

Quote:

He like Finrod Felagund, followed other beings. Sauron followed Morgoth, and Finrod followed Fëanor to Middle-earth.

Finrod did not follow Feanor, he followed Fingolfin and his sons who followed Feanor.

Quote:

Both Morgoth and Fëanor were mightier beings than Sauron and Finrod.

How could Feanor be mightier than a Maia?

Quote:

Finrod was of the house of Finarfin, and had golden hair, yet Sauron as en ëalar, could take any form he wished to appear, so he could look fairer than Finrod Felagund.

Why is this significant? Sauron was a Maia and had the ability then to assume any fair form he wished, but in the end, Meadhros, who was the fairest?

Quote:

In the end, Sauron slayed Finrod Felagund in a battle of songs of power but what a way to loose his hröar than to someone who resembled him in a relatively equal way.

Sauron did not slay him in a song of power. Finrod was slain by a wolf in the dungeons of Tol-in-Gaurhoth. Sauron did not resemble Finrod in any way.

Quote:

The principal difference that I see is that Sauron never repented for his sins, while Finrod I would assume that he repented for following Fëanor into ME.

Finrod was like all the Noldor that went into exile, under the curse of Mandos, and I believe that he may have only repented for defying the Valar and going into exile, not for following Feanor. Finrod was released from Mandos quickly.

jerseydevil · 03-24-2003, 01:21 AM

GW...

Quote:

Och, that makes sense, are you're being an Elvengirl.

Elvengirl...

Quote:

Ok, this might sound strange. I replied to you, Gwaimir, with a few names that I liked, but the computer shows that I wrote something about Finrod and Feanor, which I did not write. Does your computr say that? I don't know if it is just a glitch in my computer or what.

In reply to Gwaimir

Quote:

Originally posted by Gwaimir Windgem
Och, that makes sense, are you're being an Elvengirl.

Can I help it?

But I do like the other names too

Question: what does Kanrath and Nesai mean?

GW...

Quote:

Well, that is strange...Before, it said there were three names (Elontar, Estayen, and Tindorel, I think) that you liked; as they were Elvish names, that precipitated my Elvengirl comment. But then when I saw your other post and went to look back, it said the long post about the Elves of Middle-earth. Odd, indeed.

Anyway, I've told a fairish amount about Lisman (my secondary world) in the fantasy writing topic, starting on the sixth page; here is the part that applies to your question:

Quote:

In a generally central location is the land of Canrath, the most cultured and 'highest' human kingdom; it is in it's capital city of Gondel that the Temple of Eltarn lies. On the borders of Canrath is the Federation of (Nesai/Naros?), a group of several small kingdoms, duchies, etc. compiled into one country; they are the allies of Canrath. They are less cultured, and are something of a farming country.

I'm debating between Canrath and Kanrath (Actually, not debating, more like have no idea

)

Elvengirl...

Quote:

OK, I'll check out the other thread.

I personally like Canrath over Kanrath. I can't give you a good reason why. Canrath looks more... appealing (if that fits) for a human city. The K gives the name a dwarvish look, just my opinion though....

Gwaimir Windgem · 03-24-2003, 01:30 AM

Thanks much, JD.

Elvengirl, opinion is what I want.

jerseydevil · 03-24-2003, 01:33 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Gwaimir Windgem
Thanks much, JD.

No problem. not sure why all the posts ended up getting lost and why I was able to see them on Netscape.

Elvengirl · 03-24-2003, 05:30 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Gwaimir Windgem

Elvengirl, opinion is what I want.

Glad I could help

Gwaimir Windgem · 03-24-2003, 05:43 PM

When I share stuff, I'm always happy for some good constructive criticism.

But if it's too constructive, I may bite your head off!

Just kidding, of course.

Legoles · 03-24-2003, 09:31 PM

You know you are an unimaginitive@@$@&)(*&$%@@P(*&#
IDIOT

Gwaimir Windgem · 03-24-2003, 09:53 PM

O.o

Okaaaaay...

Elvengirl · 03-24-2003, 10:03 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Legoles
You know you are an unimaginitive@@$@&)(*&$%@@P(*&#
IDIOT

Whaat?

Aeryn · 03-24-2003, 10:26 PM

IronParrot, I understand where your coming from *note: I didn't read anything from this thread but the first post, hate me all you want* People who do it from backround are one thing, but it can be really confusing otherwise.

I think people take "poetic license" if you will. If they are going to write, or make a series or whatever, then they are going to do it their way.

Gwaimir Windgem · 03-24-2003, 10:47 PM

Yeah, IP, what do you want? "FEAR ME! I AM THE EVIL SORCERER, JIMMY JOE-BOB!"

***IronParrot*** · 03-24-2003, 11:35 PM

Well for starters, "Luke Skywalker" wasn't so bad.

Gwaimir Windgem · 03-24-2003, 11:38 PM

Okay, that's one. Too bad it's taken.

Aeryn · 03-24-2003, 11:41 PM

His first last name was

"Starkiller"

Did you know that?

I read it on Trivial Pursuit genus 5

Gwaimir Windgem · 03-24-2003, 11:45 PM

Actually, I did know it. Not that I still remembered it...

Aeryn · 03-24-2003, 11:48 PM

Oh, kay then....

Jeez, you are WAY to into Starwars...

I only know Starkiller because I played that game tonight, I mean the only real thing I remember from the movies *first and only time viewing* is Darth's voice and the Lord of Sith *that was star wars?* and he was his father....

Gwaimir Windgem · 03-24-2003, 11:55 PM

You should see me and fantasy, especially Tolkien.

Or my brother and Star Wars...

Gwaimir Windgem · 03-26-2003, 12:39 AM

Just like the folk who think war is never excusable:

"Your way is wrong!"
"Any suggestions for another way?"
*silence*

***IronParrot*** · 03-26-2003, 02:22 AM

Actually, that's not quite true. There is another way.

If fantasy writers are going to go overboard with unpronounceable names filled with apostrophes (the examples you guys have come with so far are relatively tame), that just becomes confusing and hard to follow. If it turns the audience off, it's simply not good writing.

Option One: they can be at least somewhat consistent about it, and frame it in some sort of model. Maintain some sort of consistent sound that implies united cultural and linguistic roots or something. I'm not saying they need to be as good as Tolkien, because they probably couldn't if they tried. It's just that there's a line that needs to be drawn between the reasonable and unreasonable.

East Indian names just have a feel that sound Indian. Roman names sound Roman. Even Elvish names sound Elvish. That's what I mean by a consistent linguistic model. Once again, you don't need Tolkien-calibre precision, but that's the right direction.

Option Two: Anglicization is not such a bad idea. If you look at the Chinese historical epic Romance of the Three Kingdoms, for example, you will see two different kinds of translations out there - one that maintains the original names phonetically, through pinyin - and one that takes the names and translate them into their literal meanings. (The second, of course, is far more accessible.) It's like what's already done with Native American names on a regular basis.

At least make the names mean something. Leaving them as decoration isn't much of an excuse for having them.

Several of you have ridiculed the alternative as being naming everybody "Sir Billy Joe Bob the Green Knight" or something, but that's simply not the case. You'd be out of your mind to name someone Billy Joe Bob in a non-fantasy novel, lest it were to prove a point. The same applies here. There's a certain level of outrageousness at the other end of the spectrum, too.

Furthermore: this only really becomes a huge problem when there are lots of characters to deal with. Often, this is perhaps a problem with the fact that they weren't very well-drawn characters to begin with, and that's a different issue in itself, though confusing names make it worse.

I realize the need to make things look "otherworldly", but the work is still written in the English language, and that still binds the work to our world. An author who forsakes a decent connection to the audience isn't much of an author.

The impression that I get from people who go overboard on "fantasy-like" names is that they are cheap Tolkien imitators. Which, unfortunately, a lot of fantasy writers are.

Gwaimir Windgem · 03-26-2003, 02:37 AM

O well, at least most of my names fit under Option One; i.e. deriven from a primitive, rudimentary linguistic structure. The Canrath/Nesai and Gnome ones are just meant to sound similar.

Out of curiosity, which authors do you see as "nonsense" name-makers?

03-24-2003, 01:30 AM	#43
Gwaimir Windgem Dread Mothy Lord and Halfwitted Apprentice Loremaster Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Thomas Aquinas College, Santa Paula, CA Posts: 10,820	Thanks much, JD. Elvengirl, opinion is what I want. __________________ Crux fidelis, inter omnes arbor una nobilis. Nulla talem silva profert, fronde, flore, germine. Dulce lignum, dulce clavo, dulce pondus sustinens. 'With a melon?' - Eric Idle

03-24-2003, 05:43 PM	#46
Gwaimir Windgem Dread Mothy Lord and Halfwitted Apprentice Loremaster Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Thomas Aquinas College, Santa Paula, CA Posts: 10,820	When I share stuff, I'm always happy for some good constructive criticism. But if it's too constructive, I may bite your head off! Just kidding, of course. __________________ Crux fidelis, inter omnes arbor una nobilis. Nulla talem silva profert, fronde, flore, germine. Dulce lignum, dulce clavo, dulce pondus sustinens. 'With a melon?' - Eric Idle

03-24-2003, 09:31 PM	#47
Legoles Goddess of the evil smilies Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Somewhere where it's hot, and icky Posts: 1,587	Re: Are stupid outlandish names necessary in sci-fi/fantasy? You know you are an unimaginitive@@$@&)(&$%@@P(&# IDIOT __________________ BTW PADFOOT LIVES!

03-24-2003, 09:53 PM	#48
Gwaimir Windgem Dread Mothy Lord and Halfwitted Apprentice Loremaster Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Thomas Aquinas College, Santa Paula, CA Posts: 10,820	O.o Okaaaaay... __________________ Crux fidelis, inter omnes arbor una nobilis. Nulla talem silva profert, fronde, flore, germine. Dulce lignum, dulce clavo, dulce pondus sustinens. 'With a melon?' - Eric Idle

03-24-2003, 10:26 PM	#50
Aeryn Bank'ress of Sith Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: In a hot-hot place, heh Posts: 913	IronParrot, I understand where your coming from note: I didn't read anything from this thread but the first post, hate me all you want People who do it from backround are one thing, but it can be really confusing otherwise. I think people take "poetic license" if you will. If they are going to write, or make a series or whatever, then they are going to do it their way. __________________ my new account name feigndeath. This one is deactivated, I think.

03-24-2003, 10:47 PM	#51
Gwaimir Windgem Dread Mothy Lord and Halfwitted Apprentice Loremaster Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Thomas Aquinas College, Santa Paula, CA Posts: 10,820	Yeah, IP, what do you want? "FEAR ME! I AM THE EVIL SORCERER, JIMMY JOE-BOB!" __________________ Crux fidelis, inter omnes arbor una nobilis. Nulla talem silva profert, fronde, flore, germine. Dulce lignum, dulce clavo, dulce pondus sustinens. 'With a melon?' - Eric Idle

03-24-2003, 11:35 PM	#52
*IronParrot* Fowl Administrator Join Date: Dec 1999 Location: Calgary or Edmonton, Canada Posts: 53,420	Well for starters, "Luke Skywalker" wasn't so bad. __________________ All of IronParrot's posts are guaranteed to be 100% intelligent and/or sarcastic, comprising no genetically modified content and tested on no cute furry little animals unless the SPCA is looking elsewhere. If you observe a failure to uphold this warranty, please contact a forum administrator immediately to receive a full refund on your Entmoot registration. Blog: Nick's Café Canadien

03-24-2003, 11:38 PM	#53
Gwaimir Windgem Dread Mothy Lord and Halfwitted Apprentice Loremaster Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Thomas Aquinas College, Santa Paula, CA Posts: 10,820	Okay, that's one. Too bad it's taken. __________________ Crux fidelis, inter omnes arbor una nobilis. Nulla talem silva profert, fronde, flore, germine. Dulce lignum, dulce clavo, dulce pondus sustinens. 'With a melon?' - Eric Idle

03-24-2003, 11:41 PM	#54
Aeryn Bank'ress of Sith Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: In a hot-hot place, heh Posts: 913	His first last name was "Starkiller" Did you know that? I read it on Trivial Pursuit genus 5 __________________ my new account name feigndeath. This one is deactivated, I think.

03-24-2003, 11:45 PM	#55
Gwaimir Windgem Dread Mothy Lord and Halfwitted Apprentice Loremaster Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Thomas Aquinas College, Santa Paula, CA Posts: 10,820	Actually, I did know it. Not that I still remembered it... __________________ Crux fidelis, inter omnes arbor una nobilis. Nulla talem silva profert, fronde, flore, germine. Dulce lignum, dulce clavo, dulce pondus sustinens. 'With a melon?' - Eric Idle

03-24-2003, 11:48 PM	#56
Aeryn Bank'ress of Sith Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: In a hot-hot place, heh Posts: 913	Oh, kay then.... Jeez, you are WAY to into Starwars... I only know Starkiller because I played that game tonight, I mean the only real thing I remember from the movies first and only time viewing is Darth's voice and the Lord of Sith that was star wars? and he was his father.... __________________ my new account name feigndeath. This one is deactivated, I think.

03-24-2003, 11:55 PM	#57
Gwaimir Windgem Dread Mothy Lord and Halfwitted Apprentice Loremaster Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Thomas Aquinas College, Santa Paula, CA Posts: 10,820	You should see me and fantasy, especially Tolkien. Or my brother and Star Wars... __________________ Crux fidelis, inter omnes arbor una nobilis. Nulla talem silva profert, fronde, flore, germine. Dulce lignum, dulce clavo, dulce pondus sustinens. 'With a melon?' - Eric Idle

03-26-2003, 12:39 AM	#58
Gwaimir Windgem Dread Mothy Lord and Halfwitted Apprentice Loremaster Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Thomas Aquinas College, Santa Paula, CA Posts: 10,820	Just like the folk who think war is never excusable: "Your way is wrong!" "Any suggestions for another way?" silence __________________ Crux fidelis, inter omnes arbor una nobilis. Nulla talem silva profert, fronde, flore, germine. Dulce lignum, dulce clavo, dulce pondus sustinens. 'With a melon?' - Eric Idle

03-26-2003, 02:22 AM	#59
*IronParrot* Fowl Administrator Join Date: Dec 1999 Location: Calgary or Edmonton, Canada Posts: 53,420	Actually, that's not quite true. There is another way. If fantasy writers are going to go overboard with unpronounceable names filled with apostrophes (the examples you guys have come with so far are relatively tame), that just becomes confusing and hard to follow. If it turns the audience off, it's simply not good writing. Option One: they can be at least somewhat consistent about it, and frame it in some sort of model. Maintain some sort of consistent sound that implies united cultural and linguistic roots or something. I'm not saying they need to be as good as Tolkien, because they probably couldn't if they tried. It's just that there's a line that needs to be drawn between the reasonable and unreasonable. East Indian names just have a feel that sound Indian. Roman names sound Roman. Even Elvish names sound Elvish. That's what I mean by a consistent linguistic model. Once again, you don't need Tolkien-calibre precision, but that's the right direction. Option Two: Anglicization is not such a bad idea. If you look at the Chinese historical epic Romance of the Three Kingdoms, for example, you will see two different kinds of translations out there - one that maintains the original names phonetically, through pinyin - and one that takes the names and translate them into their literal meanings. (The second, of course, is far more accessible.) It's like what's already done with Native American names on a regular basis. At least make the names mean something. Leaving them as decoration isn't much of an excuse for having them. Several of you have ridiculed the alternative as being naming everybody "Sir Billy Joe Bob the Green Knight" or something, but that's simply not the case. You'd be out of your mind to name someone Billy Joe Bob in a non-fantasy novel, lest it were to prove a point. The same applies here. There's a certain level of outrageousness at the other end of the spectrum, too. Furthermore: this only really becomes a huge problem when there are lots of characters to deal with. Often, this is perhaps a problem with the fact that they weren't very well-drawn characters to begin with, and that's a different issue in itself, though confusing names make it worse. I realize the need to make things look "otherworldly", but the work is still written in the English language, and that still binds the work to our world. An author who forsakes a decent connection to the audience isn't much of an author. The impression that I get from people who go overboard on "fantasy-like" names is that they are cheap Tolkien imitators. Which, unfortunately, a lot of fantasy writers are. __________________ All of IronParrot's posts are guaranteed to be 100% intelligent and/or sarcastic, comprising no genetically modified content and tested on no cute furry little animals unless the SPCA is looking elsewhere. If you observe a failure to uphold this warranty, please contact a forum administrator immediately to receive a full refund on your Entmoot registration. Blog: Nick's Café Canadien

03-26-2003, 02:37 AM	#60
Gwaimir Windgem Dread Mothy Lord and Halfwitted Apprentice Loremaster Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Thomas Aquinas College, Santa Paula, CA Posts: 10,820	O well, at least most of my names fit under Option One; i.e. deriven from a primitive, rudimentary linguistic structure. The Canrath/Nesai and Gnome ones are just meant to sound similar. Out of curiosity, which authors do you see as "nonsense" name-makers? __________________ Crux fidelis, inter omnes arbor una nobilis. Nulla talem silva profert, fronde, flore, germine. Dulce lignum, dulce clavo, dulce pondus sustinens. 'With a melon?' - Eric Idle

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