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Old 01-30-2003, 01:21 PM   #41
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Quote:
Originally posted by Falagar
And one more thing, while I'm at it:
Beren made the downfall of Doriath as much as Húrin made the downfall of Gondolin!
It was thinigol that set up the ruin of Doriath not Beren. Dont shot the messenger is what best describes that situation.

My point about Hurin was that in the end he sucombed to Morgoth whilst Beren did not
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Old 01-30-2003, 01:26 PM   #42
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Some of my point too. But Húrin only showed where Morgoth should look to find Gondolin, it wouldn't have fallen (at least not so quick). Beren only delivered the Silmarilli to Thingol.

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My point about Hurin was that in the end he sucombed to Morgoth whilst Beren did not
Perhaps. But that wasn't Húrins own fault, it was the greatest being in Arda, thus it shouldn't affect his status in a discussion about the greatest among the Edain.
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Old 01-30-2003, 01:29 PM   #43
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Quote:
Originally posted by Falagar
And one more thing, while I'm at it:
Beren made the downfall of Doriath as much as Húrin made the downfall of Gondolin!
Explain please.
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Old 01-30-2003, 01:32 PM   #44
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Tried to explain
(see above post)

I'm fully aware of that it's not a very valid point...
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Old 01-30-2003, 01:35 PM   #45
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I don't know why, but I always picture Húrin as Arnold Schwarzennegar(sp) (i.e. Conan).
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Old 01-30-2003, 01:37 PM   #46
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Sween:
My point about Hurin was that in the end he sucombed to Morgoth whilst Beren did not
Um, wasn't Morgoth sleeping when Beren came around?
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Old 01-30-2003, 01:37 PM   #47
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Ok, perhaps a better explanations:
Both did it without knowing (and good intentions) it would lead to the two cities fall. However Húrin also had a spell cast on him by Morgoth
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Old 01-30-2003, 02:03 PM   #48
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My point about Hurin was that in the end he sucombed to Morgoth whilst Beren did not
Was Beren captured by Morgoth? No, Was Beren tortured by Morgoth? No. Was Beren interrogated by Morgoth? No.
How could Beren have sucombed to Morgoth if he didn't even face him? (only when he was sleeping).
He only did face him in the Tale of Tinúviel, not in the Published Silmarillion.
From the Published Silmarillion: Of Beren and Lúthien
Quote:
As he closed it in his hand, the radiance welled through his living flesh, and his hand became as a shining lamp; but the jewel suffered his touch and hurt him not. It came then into Beren's mind that he would go beyond his vow, and bear out of Angband all three of the Jewels of Fëanor; but such was not the doom of the Silmarils. The knife Angrist snapped, and a shard of the blade flying smote the cheek of Morgoth. He groaned and stirred, and all the host of Angband moved in sleep.
Then terror fell upon Beren and Lúthien, and they fled, heedless and without disguise, desiring only to see the light once more

Morgoth groaned and stirred and Beren was afraid. It's good that Beren didn't face Morgoth, he had no might of soul to resist him.
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“What does the term american refers to” asked the boy, and the wise man answered: “Lets look at the dictionary then.”
As an adjective American is:
1. Of or relating to the United States of America or its people, language, or culture.
2. Of or relating to North or South America, the West Indies, or the Western Hemisphere.
As a noun American is:
A native or inhabitant of America.
A citizen of the United States.

Then the boy asked, “What is America then?”, and the wise man looked at the dictionary again:
1. The United States.
2. also the A·mer·i·cas. The landmasses and islands of North America, Central America, and South America.

Confused, the boy asked, “Does the term american refers solely to a us citizen or to any person in North, Central or South America?”
The wise man replied: “What do you think?”, and the boy answered: “It is clear to me that while the term american is used to refers to us citizens, one can also use it to refer to any person who is from that continent too,” the boy thought for a while and asked the wise man, “Am I right?”, and he replied: “But of course.”
The boy wondered, why is it that some people refuse to acknowledge the fact that the term american refers not only to US citizens but to anyone of the American continent?, but then sadly, the boy understood, that it is the calamity of ignorance.
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Old 01-30-2003, 03:06 PM   #49
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Right we seem to be getting away from why i personally think Beren is the greatest. What Beren did in his life served a purpose and achived an end.

Beren achived in all his labours and through him and luthien Maiar blood was able to enter in the blood of elves and men. From him also came the line of kings and the person who managed to get back to valinor.
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Old 01-30-2003, 03:12 PM   #50
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Quote:
Originally posted by Sween
Right we seem to be getting away from why i personally think Beren is the greatest. What Beren did in his life served a purpose and achived an end.

Beren achived in all his labours and through him and luthien Maiar blood was able to enter in the blood of elves and men. From him also came the line of kings and the person who managed to get back to valinor.
That is so true! With out Beren and Luthien's marriage, Earndil would never had had the Silmaril's help( thanks to Elwing) in finding Valinor and asking for the Valar's help to defeat Morgoth.
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Old 01-30-2003, 03:15 PM   #51
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As for Beren being responsible for the fall of Doriath, I agree with Sween. Thingol is to blame on that one. He is the one that set the chain of events in motion.

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Morgoth groaned and stirred and Beren was afraid. It's good that Beren didn't face Morgoth, he had no might of soul to resist him.
I don't think you have proven that because he knew fear means that he did not have might of soul to resist him. Can you factually say that Hurin knew no fear? Fear does not mean weak. I think for Beren to endure the torment of Sauron, and then to proceed and succeed with the quest of the Silmaril shows that he was great indeed.
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"North away." he said: "to the swords, and the siege, and the walls of defence - that yet for a while in Beleriand rivers may run clean, leaves spring, and birds build their nests, ere Night comes."

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Old 01-30-2003, 03:19 PM   #52
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Originally posted by Andúril
I don't know why, but I always picture Húrin as Arnold Schwarzennegar(sp) (i.e. Conan).
Not with THAT acting. Hurin was problably shorter too.
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Old 01-30-2003, 03:30 PM   #53
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Quote:
Originally posted by Inderjit Sanghera
Not with THAT acting. Hurin was problably shorter too.
Off the Subject....Arnold is short! I think he's only like 5'8" or something... befor eI knew I always thought he was like 6'3" or something....anyhow, I picture Hurin as being about 6'
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Old 01-30-2003, 04:07 PM   #54
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Arnold is not good looking enough or not good enough an actor to play Hurin anyway.
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Old 01-30-2003, 04:10 PM   #55
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Quote:
Originally posted by Inderjit Sanghera
Arnold is not good looking enough or not good enough an actor to play Hurin anyway.
I always pictured Hurin to be like Chuck Norris.
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"North away." he said: "to the swords, and the siege, and the walls of defence - that yet for a while in Beleriand rivers may run clean, leaves spring, and birds build their nests, ere Night comes."

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Old 01-30-2003, 04:26 PM   #56
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Ok, a last, desperate defence for Húrin (although it seems like most people have voted for him...maybe I should make a poll?)!
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That is so true! With out Beren and Luthien's marriage, Earndil would never had had the Silmaril's help( thanks to Elwing) in finding Valinor and asking for the Valar's help to defeat Morgoth.
Perhaps. But the fact that his son's daughter married a man who fetched the Valars doesn't make Beren himself greater than Húrin, who saved the lord of Gondolin, Turgon's back and defied Morgoth when he asked where Turgon had his city.
Beren wasn't captivated by Morgoth (and when he was taken by Sauron he escaped fairly quick compared to Húrin), and he crept in while Morgoth and his house were sleeping (thanks to Luthien).
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Old 01-30-2003, 04:35 PM   #57
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Quote:
IS:
Arnold is not good looking enough or not good enough an actor to play Hurin anyway.
Nobody's playing anybody. Arnie is Húrin in my minds eye. I can't picture anyone else killing 70 trolls like that.
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I always pictured Hurin to be like Chuck Norris.
Well, that's wonderful and all, but the thing is........no. Texas Rangers do not defy Morgoth, no matter how many martial arts movies they have made.
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Old 01-30-2003, 05:46 PM   #58
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Quote:
Originally posted by Falagar


Perhaps. But the fact that his son's daughter married a man who fetched the Valars doesn't make Berend himself greater than Húrin, who saved the lord of Gondolin, Turgon's back and defied Morgoth when he asked where Turgon had his city.
Beren wasn't captivated by Morgoth (and when he was taken by Sauron he escaped fairly quick compared to Húrin), and he crept in while Morgoth and his house was sleeping (thanks to Luthien).
It was acctually Hour that has the dialog (well from my version of the sil) with Turgon saying they will cover his escape.

Should frodo and sam also be added to this list?
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Old 01-30-2003, 06:11 PM   #59
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Húrin says the first part ("Go now, lord, while time is!..."), and then after Turgon's reply Huor says ""Yet if it stands but a little while..."
But no doubt Húrin shared his brother's opinion.
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Old 01-30-2003, 06:19 PM   #60
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Hurin was short. I always pictured him as a short yet muscular type of guy.
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