Abortion and Handguns

[Nibs]

That's where it could get confusing.

[Starr Polish]

I'd say it gets confusing far before that, and complicated as well.

My standings on both issues are probably obvious. Against abortion and gun control.

[BeardofPants]

I still wouldn't say that it was the victim's fault that she got raped. Even if she was careless about her safety. It's a little bit different being careless and cutting yourself with a knife, and being careless and getting raped. It is NEVER the victim's fault.

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Starr Polish
Unless she knew of the danger she was putting herself into and it could have been prevented.

I can't believe you're using "let's blame the victim". Sorry but NO ONE asks to be raped. If a person goes to a frat party and something is put into their drink - does that fall into "putting herself into danger". Is walking late at night through empty sections of Central Park " knowingly putting herself in danger"? Doesn't everything we do knowingly put ourselves in danger? Everytime I get in my car I must know that I may get into a car accident that can either kill me or seriously injure me - is it still my fault then????

[Silverstripe]

Originally posted by Nibs
Not necessarily.

Nor is it the mother's.

What did you mean by "not necessarily?" I could perhaps agree with that, from a purely legal standpoint, if you meant that it depends on what country we're talking about.

I certainly agree that it is not the mother's fault, but if the fetus is a person, then he or she is be a citizen of some country, with all the rights that bestows (At least in most countries. There might be some that have a stricter definition of citizen than simply "person").
The argument I am about to make applies only in the USA. So, everyone: if things are different in your country you are free to say so.

In the US, once a child is born, it is illegal for women to throw their babies away (sometimes literally!) or otherwise murder them. Clearly the baby's right to not be murdered is seen as more important than the mother's right to rid herself of an unwanted child, though the mother may of course put her child up for adoption. There have been cases of teens who didn't know they were pregnant until their baby was born, then killed their child. If the mothers were found out, they were prosecuted for the murder of the baby! Whether the child was a product of rape or not no longer mattered. Therefore, if person born in the US or having US parents = US citizen, and unborn babies are considered persons, abortion should be illegal.

Obviously if you believe that a fetus is not a person things are different.

[Silverstripe]

Originally posted by Starr Polish
Unless she knew of the danger she was putting herself into and it could have been prevented.

What are you talking about? Rape is always the fault of the rapist, not the victim! The woman might have been careless, but that does NOT make the rape her fault.

Just out of curiousity, where are you from?

[Dunadan]

Yeah, no-one ever asks to be raped. God, do people really believe that?

I don't get how being raped makes a difference. Presumably, if abortion is murder, it's murder.

We're all skirting around the issue, which is WHEN a foetus becomes a person. Please tick the box:

[] when it's just jizz
[] when it's fertilised
[] when it's started dividing
[] when it's implanted
[] when it's differentiated a nervous system
[] when it's reached some embryologically sensible developmental milestone to be decided after appropriate consultation with a large and impressive committee of men in white coats and long probes
[] when it's capable of sustaining its life outside the womb
[] when it's born
[] when it's able to buy DVDs

I reckon most folk would go for somewhere between 4th and 7th.

I include the last one because there are some human rights you DON'T have until you reach the legal age of majority. You can't legally make contracts, for example, below this age. So, the point is, we can grow into rights.

[jerseydevil]

[X] when it's differentiated a nervous system

Or sometime between the 2nd and 3rd trimester.

[Silverstripe]

Originally posted by Dunadan
Yeah, no-one ever asks to be raped. God, do people really believe that?

I don't get how being raped makes a difference. Presumably, if abortion is murder, it's murder.

We're all skirting around the issue, which is WHEN a foetus becomes a person. Please tick the box:

[] when it's just jizz
[] when it's fertilised
[] when it's started dividing
[] when it's implanted
[] when it's differentiated a nervous system
[] when it's reached some embryologically sensible developmental milestone to be decided after appropriate consultation with a large and impressive committee of men in white coats and long probes
[] when it's capable of sustaining its life outside the womb
[] when it's born
[] when it's able to buy DVDs

I reckon most folk would go for somewhere between 4th and 7th.

I include the last one because there are some human rights you DON'T have until you reach the legal age of majority. You can't legally make contracts, for example, below this age. So, the point is, we can grow into rights.

Sadly, I think there are people out there who truly believe that some women "ask" to be raped. To me that's ridiculous and, frankly, a revolting thought.

The rights that we have to grow into are usually stated, though, aren't they? In almost all cases, I am opposed to abortion (there might be a FEW specific exceptions, but I'd have to know the details of the case), but I would be willing to accept 5, or possibly even 6 ("men in white coats") as a reasonable scientific determination of when personhood is reached.

[markedel]

I don't think the baby is a person until it's born-though late term abortions make me feel uncomfortable. So abortions are good as long as they're regulated. Banning abortions after all causes more problems than it solves anyways. It kills mothers and it makes both people suffer.

[Elven Archer]

It's a person as soon as

[] when it's fertilised

and how can you think it's not a person untill it's born?????? does it just go blob-person? what about the babies that are born 6 months premature and live?

[emplynx]

"When a woman exercises her right to control her own body in total disregard of the body of another human being, it is called abortion. When a man acts out of the same philosopry, it is called rape"

Originally posted by jerseydevil
For at least half of the first trimester - it is hard for the human eye to even see the fetus.

I agree with that. But just because I can't see a bacteria, does it mean I'm not killing it if I take medication? Just because you can't see it doesn't mean it's not a human. In this case size doesn't matter. If a 200 pounds man loose 50 pounds, does he loose 25% of his personhood.

Originally posted by jerseydevil
I see absolutely no problem with the morning after pill (which is different from RU-486)

That's similar to saying you don't mind someone being poisened to death, but you don't approve of people's heads being cut off!! It's rediculous!!

Originally posted by Coney
I'm pro-choice as regards to abortion, especially if the pregnancy is undesired

So it's ok to kill people if they are undesired? Is that what you're saying?

Originally posted by Erawyn
I do however believe that a woman should have complete control of her body, and that her life is way more important than the "life" of someone who hasn't been born yet.

That's sick to say that a grown adult's life is any more important than a small child's life.

Originally posted by Elenka
I feel like if a woman wants an abortion, she should be able to get one,

So if I want to kill someone, should I be allowed to?
Regarding rape with thanks to Randy Alcorn:
Only 3 percent of rape victims get pregnant.
If treated fast enough, the sperm can be stopped from fertalizing the egg and creating a human being.
RAPE IS NEVER THE FAULT OF THE CHILD conceived; the guilty part, not an innocent party, should be punished!!!
"When a woman exercises her right to control her own body in total disregard of the body of another human being, it is called abortion. When a man acts out of the same philosopry, it is called rape"!!!!!
--
I'm here to answer any questions anyone has on abortion, and I'm willing to argue this more than the existance of God. Please just hear me out!

[cassiopeia]

I would just like to make some points:

*Any person who thinks that someone who is raped is thier own fault has serious mental problems.

*I believe that a fetus becomes a person when the brain is formed, so I am pro-abortion until that point. I think the brain is developed after the 2nd month, so an abortion up to 2 months of conception is Ok, IMHO.

*If you think abortion is murder, then so is euthanasia and capital punishment.

[BeardofPants]

Originally posted by emplynx
"When a woman exercises her right to control her own body in total disregard of the body of another human being, it is called abortion. When a man acts out of the same philosopry, it is called rape"

I find that incredibly disturbing. I think it's disgusting that you're equating abortion with rape.

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by emplynx
That's similar to saying you don't mind someone being poisened to death, but you don't approve of people's heads being cut off!! It's rediculous!!

No it's not the same because all the morning after pill does is prevent ovulation. All it does is prevent a required occurence to take place.

The Morning-After Pill
EC (emergency contraceptive) is actually a series of high-dosage hormone pills, estrogen and progesterone, given in two doses twelve hours apart, as soon as possible after the unprotected intercourse occurred—preferably within 24 hours and no later than 72 hours...

They (Planned Parenthood)state EC only works by preventing ovulation, and insist that there is no evidence that EC prevents the implantation of a fertilized egg, as many pro-lifers claim. To quote, "originally that was thought to be the way it worked ... but researchers who look specifically at the way these drugs act don't think that's the way it works now. In fact, studies in rats say that the dose of hormones needed, per kilogram of body weight, to prevent implantation is far greater than the amount present in EC, which is just four ordinary birth control pills."....

.... studies have shown that EC works by inhibiting ovulation. Studies have also suggested that EC might prevent implantation by altering the endometrium; however, the evidence is mixed and test results have not been definitive. EC may also prevent fertilization or transport of sperm or ova, but no concrete data exists regarding these possible mechanisms. The AMA also states that EC does not interrupt an established pregnancy.....

RU486 causes a miscarriage on an established fetus.

[Coney]

"So it's ok to kill people if they are undesired? Is that what you're saying?"

No.

IMO a foetus does not become a "life" until it is capable of living outside of the mothers body.

If you disagree with that, fine.

I've seen dozens of documentary's regarding orphans, babies abandoned for numerousl reasons........a particular documentary about baby girls left in orphanges, and killed by the Chinese state was horrific. Disabled (both mentally and physically) and heathy children dumped into Romanian orphanages and left to rot will be an image that stays with me for the rest of life. That was proof enough to me that abortion should be an option.

Documentaries from the UK also.
Children abandoned. Hundreds abandoned every year. In telephone boxes, on hospital doorsteps, in railway stations. Abandoned for many different reasons......the babies of drug addicts, teenagers terrified to tell there parents (sometimes not even teenagers. One 11yr old girl delivered her baby herself in a public toilet, they found the baby dead. The girl was found 3 days later, dead in a back-street in London from massive heamorridging)........homeless people often abandon babies, after all, how could they care for them?

A few other scenarios-

A woman in her 50's falls pregnant even tho' she was sterlized years earlier........the doctor tells her that to carry the child may kill both her and the baby.

A woman lives with an alcoholic, every day he kicks the living crap out of her but she doesn't have the guts/will to leave him........she misses a period.....and discovers she is pregnant she daren't leave her husband but she doesn't want her children to go through this life.

A teenage prostitute uses contraception, it fails.........she knows that if she cannot work her pimp will kill her.


Until worldwide humanity automatically become good parents in the advent of someone becoming pregnant then I feel the choice should be available. Millions of families around the world would not even support their children if they were about to become parents, a good friend of mine, Sahir$% is now massively brain damaged because she took an overdose after falling pregnant (she is Hindu and was expected to marry at 18) should she have been more careful regarding becoming pregnant? Yes. Should she have been so terrified of telling her parents that she was pregnant that she tried to kill herself. No..........Should she have been able to have seen her Dr, arrange an abortion and after the abortion (however long it may have taken her to come to terms with the mental implications of the abortion) she could have enjoyed a full, healthy and hopefully happy life without all this stigma and shame that many people feel about this perfectly legal operation thrust upon her..........IMO yes.

Should their be a choice.........yes.

[jerseydevil]

New Jersey's parental notification law regarding abortions is sort of weird. I don't know if any other states have this law written like this or not.

A parent must be informed that their child is planning on getting an abortion. The doctor can tell them or who ever - but they need to be told. If the parent fears for her safety - she can go before a judge to have it waived. The parent can not prevent the abortion though if the teenager wants it.

I sort of have a problem with this - and yet understand it to. The problem is that it is a major procedure and things can go wrong.

Parental Notification for Abortion (Official New Jersey State Health site.)
If you are under the age of 18, pregnant, unmarried, not on active duty in the military, and want to have an abortion, this law requires that a parent be notified; however it does not require you to get permission from your parent.

* You can tell a parent (your guardian, foster parent or custodian may be considered your parent),

OR

* The doctor or clinic will notify a parent,

OR

* You can ask a judge for permission to have an abortion without your parent's knowledge.

The Parental Notification Law (New Jersey)

[Silverstripe]

*If you think abortion is murder, then so is euthanasia and capital punishment. [/B]

That analogy is not accurate! Capital punishment is execution for a CRIME, and in the case of euthanasia or assisted suicide, the people generally are given a chance to decide that they want to die -- and if they are not, then it IS murder! Abortion is the taking of an innocent young life, and an unborn child can't tell anyone whether he or she would rather die than be born.

[cassiopeia]

Originally posted by Silverstripe
That analogy is not accurate! Capital punishment is execution for a CRIME, and in the case of euthanasia or assisted suicide, the people generally are given a chance to decide that they want to die -- and if they are not, then it IS murder! Abortion is the taking of an innocent young life, and an unborn child can't tell anyone whether he or she would rather die than be born.

Murder is the intentional killing of another human being by another, that is all I am saying. You can't support capital punishment but not abortion if you say abortion is murder and murder is wrong.

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by cassiopeia
Murder is the intentional killing of another human being by another, that is all I am saying. You can't support capital punishment but not abortion if you say abortion is murder and murder is wrong.

Yeah you can - because the person that is receiving the capital punsihment has usually done something wong that has given him the death sentence. An unborn child hasn't done anything.

Again - I will state that I support abortion (with restrictions), capital punsihment and euthanasia.