Problems with education

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Sween
well they should. everyone in country should have equal health, social and educational rights. your poor areas will never be sorted if people take that kind of attitude.

There are benefits that less fortunate people get. Since I'm not a socialist - I don't believe in the type of benefits that England has - I already pay enough in taxes. So I don't want to live in a country like England or Canada.

Money I think has far less to do with education than inspiring students and making them interested to learn.

[Sween]

i guess we are gonna have to agree to disagree on this but it is true that no one can succed without the will to succed but even then if its all against them they will find it hard

[azalea]

Oh,no I don't think teaching is the hardest job, that was just a phrase. I think being a police officer is one of the toughest jobs. I can think of plenty of others. But teaching is a thankless job to a certain extent.

I agree that the learner must be motivated, but at the elementary level things have to be pretty bad before the student loses that motivation. I have seen students get in ruts of bad behavior that really interferes with their learning, and unfortunately you can't make the parents follow through at home and tell them how to discipline their children, so unless the child makes the change it won't happen. But a good teacher will not give up. A good teacher will try to inspire a love of learning.

Of course genetics plays a role in intellegence, but there are poor intellegent people. Those students usually end up succeeding if they don't have behavior problems, but they don't have the same support system. I had a student with a behavior disorder (I taught special ed for 2 years -- behavior disorders) who I knew was smart, but because he didn't speak much English and he had the disorder, his teachers dismissed his intellengence score saying the interpreter had given him too much info or something.

Children in the poorer areas have lower expectations imposed upon them. They are less likely to end up in gifted classes, because their parents don't know how to work the system. The parents where I taught would sometimes keep having their kids tested and retested until they got a score that would get them into the gifted program. It was always kind of funny, because so many parents would always be sure their child was gifted, and I always wanted to go to my principal and joke about how amazing it was that I had a class full of geniuses. I know everyone would like to think their child is just a little smarter than most other kids, but it was ridiculous. Every incident of bad behavior -- "he's bored, she needs to be challenged." Most of the REALLY smart kids were very well behaved. If they got bored they'd sit there and make up stories in their heads, or count tiles on the wall and teach themselves multiplication. The parents didn't want to see that their precious was just misbehaving.

The best was when the parent would respond to a note home about behavior with "Johnny says that didn't happen," basically calling me (or whatever other teacher) a liar, or the other students involved liars. As if no kid has ever lied to avoid getting punished! Well now I've gotten off the subject. Sorry about that.

There are many bad teachers (ones who just don't really care, mainly ones just counting the days until retirement), and there are also teachers who get fed up with it all and get burned out and get into other careers. Where I live now (a very poor district) many schools have substitute teachers ALL YEAR because the county can't find teachers. So of course these kids are stuck with the bottom of the barrel, and they really need good teachers. It's going to be harder when they lower class sizes (which is a good thing). I don't really know that that can be fixed (the problem of finding enough good quality teachers). Some say it's a pay issue. I never had a problem with my pay, it was more than a living wage. But I know most people want to make a lot and go into business, law or medicine (although this is becoming less popular now because of managed health care).

[jerseydevil]

Don't you know that 90% of parents consider their kids to be above average?

I alos can't stand parents - that instead of disciplining their children - they call the teacher a liar. That is the biggest problem with the educational system sometimes. Parents make excuses for their children when they get in trouble.

This isn't school related - but it is an example of parents making excuses for their kids and not teaching them responsibilty. I had a friend in Seymour who joined a music club when he was 15. He was getting all the CDs - but he had no job to pay for them. The music club started sending letters demanding payment. His parents sent them a letter saying that he was only 15 and that the music club didn't have a case since he was underage. His parents were not poor - his father was Chief of Staff of the hospital. If I did something like that - my parents would have told me that I had better get a job mowing lawns, whatever it took until I paid that back.

Education starts at the home. Teachers can only do so much without cooperation from parents.

[Khamûl]

I agree with that. Some kids can misbehave at school because they know nothing will happen there, and that no one at home's going to do anything either. If the teachers or the principal decide that they want to punish the student, then there's going to be a parent somewhere that decides to sue for abuse or emotional damages. Not that everyone's like that, mind you, but there's always a small percentage that has to take things to the extreme.

[afro-elf]

and there are also teachers who get fed up with it all and get burned out and get into other careers

humm sounds like the person i see in the mirror

[azalea]

All that is the flip side of the coin from the stupid stuff you hear teachers and administrators doing to punish kids at school, I can think of a couple of examples (the school that strip searched kids for drugs, etc). I think both sides need to take a common sense approach. Parents need to teach their kids to be responsible and not pass the blame onto someone else, like our politicians and CEOs do (it wasn't my fault, it was the intern; it wasn't me -- the accountants did it!)

Another teaching story from me: it was the last day of school when I was doing my student teaching (4th grade). It was the end of the day and the teacher and I were waiting with the few kids who were waiting for the walkers and car riders to be dismissed. The teacher was on the other side of the room, I was talking to a couple of the students, when one of the girls reaches into the pocket of the jacket she was wearing and says "What's this?" She pulled out a baggie of pot. I said, "Hmm, let me see. Where did you find this?" She told me her aunt was visiting and let her borrow the jacket to wear to school (it was an really neat embroidered denim jacket). She said, "Maybe it's spices; my aunt likes to cook." I said, "Well, just throw it away." After the students left, I told the teacher, who went to the principal, who told her to flush it.
If we had made a big deal of it, that little girl would have had a lot of trouble due to zero tolerance. Even if her parents had gotten in trouble, it would have hurt the girl. She obviously had no idea what it was, much less was using it or anything. Had I been the teacher, I might have called the parents and just told them what she had found in her aunt's pocket so they'd be aware of it, but she didn't do that. The girl might have had to serve a 10 day suspention at the beginning of the next school year or something if the principal had done something about it like called the police or school authorities or something.

Common sense form both parents and schools would do a lot to help the educational system. Now how can we legislate that?

[Sween]

Disiaplin in school is a very difficult issue. what can teachers do? what should they be allowed to do? Im a beilever that an adult should never strick a child. but what is a child in a senior school? i mean i was 6 foot at the age of 14. if i wanted i could of easily intimidated many a teacher. i do this in a unconsious way all the time to people if you make yourself big theres little they can do about it. Unfortinally people will have a pop at a teacher (ive seen it many a time).

You can say it should be down to the perents but some perents dont see anything wrong with it. it was the way they were brough up and behave so to them its ok.

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Sween
Disiaplin in school is a very difficult issue. what can teachers do? what should they be allowed to do? Im a beilever that an adult should never strick a child. but what is a child in a senior school? i mean i was 6 foot at the age of 14. if i wanted i could of easily intimidated many a teacher. i do this in a unconsious way all the time to people if you make yourself big theres little they can do about it. Unfortinally people will have a pop at a teacher (ive seen it many a time).

You can say it should be down to the perents but some perents dont see anything wrong with it. it was the way they were brough up and behave so to them its ok.

And that's the problem. It's an ongoing thing. The parents were raised that way and then they raise their own children that way.

In Indiana it's okay to hit a children. In New Jersey it's illegal. In my high school a teacher slapped a student and she was given the ultimatum - either quit or be fired. The bad thing is - her daughter also went to my school and she was given a hard time by all the students. I never understood that - she had nothing to do with what her mother did.

Azalea - the zero tolerance stuff is stupid - although like you - I would have least have talked to the parents. Maybe even ask for a parent teacher conference to talk to them face to face.

I wish we could make parents care about education - but you can't. And some never will. It reminds me of the movie "Dangerous Minds" when the grandmother pulls her grandkids out of school because they're learning poetry. The teacher goes to visit them at their home to find out why they'[re not in class. The grandmother tells her that her grandkids have no need to learn poetry or to go to school. She claims it's a waste of time and they're not going to college anyway.

[Sween]

Teachers are limited by who they are. My aunt is a teacher shes only 5'3 and to think she could use physical force is a joke. Theres a problem with zero tolerence i dont think people would respond these days. I mean if my dad ever struck me even if i was about 8 i would punch back. In fairness it didnt work but you know what i mean. If you lay your hands on me in an agressieve manner i will knock you the **** out (unless your a woman, very old, or a child).

But i have given examples of some people i wouldnt harm but there are some that dont care. Its not like the 1950's people think more to themselves these days and know what behavior they expect. If a teacher ever just unnessarly picked on a child and was been out of order we as students would all get up and defend him or her.

[Cirdan]

We had coporal punishment when I was a child. The teacher and principals could do whatever they wanted to you. My brother was pretty rowdy and by the time I got to school they just treated me like I was him. If the class acted up when the teacher was out of the room I would be the one punished. I middle school there was an asst. principal who was a gym teacher when my FATHER went to school there. My brother punched him when he was in ninth grade. So, by the time I shown up is was revenge time. I was beaten for throwing a paper airplane out of a window, for instance. If I talked in class, I was beaten. Luckily we moved away from Florida to Maryland. When I got to school the first day there were students smoking pot on the lawn. I thought, "Well, this is different".

School financing IS critical to fairness. Without central control and monitoring there will be corruption. The District of Columbia (Washington, DC) system spends a huge amount of money but they piss most of it away. Don't forget that the people who determine the budgets are politicians. The people who benefit from spending tend to be the contractors who build and maintain the school infrastructure. To say that financial contributors are a factor would be an understatement. The home school in my area of this rich county has 14 "temporary classrooms" trailers. They cut down the playground equipment to put them up. A five minute drive from here is a school that is networked and computerized with all the latest tools and new equipment. The number of students there is much lower.

Teachres AND students need smaller class sizes. Teachers should be specialized is one or two subjects and teach multiple grades from the beginning instead of being generalists for one age group. The school day and year should be longer, with more non-classroom activities. After third or fourth grade they should be doing all acedemic work on computers. Chalk boards, cut and paste, hand-written work, is all a wasteful set of tools.

Kids need to learn to socialize properly as well. Most teachers ignore inapropriate behavior unless it happens right in from of them. I saw a video about bullying recently and it showed children behaving violently and teachers standing around chatting with one another. Children must be required to follow the same standards of behavior that adults do. "Kids will be kids" is bull^%$&! Older kids should act as assistants to teachers of lower level classes to help them develop socially.

Standardized testing is so badly implemented taht it should be cancelled until they fix it. My son has to spend far to much time prepping for the test to focus on areas of need. There should be standardized level tests for specific subjects and the students should be allowed to take them as many times as they want to take them. If the tests were somehow easier to administer (Internet...) and take and were diverse in the testing methods then they would make sense.

Grades should be there to let the student and parent know how the student is doing. A complete proficiency of a subject at a particluar level should be all that is required to move to the next level. Access to schools facilities should be inceased to help students that need access to books, computer, or tutors.

As for the US, if we can spend $80 billion to bury our plutonium, then we can do something to fix this system. Teachers must prove themselves and should be rewarded for excellence. They should get overtime for helping with extracurricular activities. Without incentives nobody works harder than they have to, unless they are self-motivated. Something must change.

[jerseydevil]

Money will still only fix so much of the problems. No matter how many computers are in the classroom or high tech - if it's not used properly as a teaching tool - it won't solve anything.

I'm for vouchers that will allow parents to get their children into the schools they want.

New schools in NJ don't get blackboards (at least form what I heard) - they get computerized white boards that allow teachers to print out the stuff that is on the board. Also - for the really wired schools - it allows the teacher to send it to the student's lap tops.

The Plainsboro school district looked into using electronic books for the foreign language department and supplying students with PDA's. It was determined to be too expensive though.

Standardized tests should be eliminated as a requirement for a student moving up to the next grade PERIOD. Using them as a general guide on students and schools performance is okay.

I agree that the kids will be kids attitude is complete bull. But again it's adults and parents that are the problem. They're rather turn their head than deal with the problem.

I think that having older students spending time with younger students (such as having a library hour or something where the older class is matched up with a lower class) to help out with homework and school work and so forth. I wonder how the teachers unions would feel though? They probably wouldn't allow it under the argument that if it's done then people wouldn't think teachers do anything - or some lame reason like that. i don't know how much it would work in NJ 0 since a lot of schools are broken up into 1-3 grades, 3-4 grades, 4-5 grades and all other combinations in elemtary schools now.

[Cirdan]

Money won't solve everything but very little will be solved without it.

Vouchers are dubious since the availabliity and cost of private schools is quite variable. It may help in the long run but I doubt the private system is prepared to handle a large increase in student right now, meanwhile....

School improvements such as electronic BB are very limited. Some schools here don't even have air conditioning. In DC many schools are closed because basic maintenance insn't done. Why shouldn't there be federal audits of school systems' budgets, infrastructure, and performance? The SEC is needed the same way to monitor corporations.

Grade levels are a bit antiquated way of placing children. The grouping of 1-3 would only work in areas with very dense population.

I would like to see children having to be responsible for maintenance of the school. It may reduce vadalism and increase self-responsibility. Let 'em cut the grass and mop the floors. It should be like chores at home. Well, that may be crazy talk

[samwiselvr2008]

okay, i am in school, so this is what i think:

1. Teachers who think that they are the best and know everything and are allways right need to be fired. i know that they help sometimes with bad students but all of the good students that never get in trouble or get detentions have fillings to, and hate to be allways yelled at and never complamented.

2. why is gym required? i mean, if you wont to take gym then you can, but for ppl like me who have no fucher in it or for it have to take it to.

3. at my school (AC Reynolds Middle) the classes are divided into three groups, the first one makes sence, and that is the group of ppl who have ALOT of problems learning, and need spesial atention. but the last two groups make no sence what-so- ever. there is the stupid/average group (that i was in last year) and the above average group. that was okay, but if there gonna do that, thene they allso need to seperate the average/ stupid groups

[azalea]

Regarding school funding and the school board being made up of politicians -- that is so true. Our school board is awful (but hopefully getting better). There's just been a huge mess wherein the superintendant's contract wasn't renewed. A guy from the state school board association came to advise our board on hiring a new superintendant, and made this excellent statement: "School systems exist to educate children, NOT to provide adults with jobs." They really needed to hear that, because there are so many questionable politics involved in some of the things they spend money on. They get so focused on putting their friends or relatives in jobs that they pay no attention to why they even exist! It's really bad.

[azalea]

Originally posted by samwiselvr2008


why is gym required? i mean, if you wont to take gym then you can, but for ppl like me who have no fucher in it or for it have to take it to.

This isn't meant to sound snotty, but it's all part of having a well rounded education. I mean, people could say the same about math (beyond the basics). Besides, someday when you're at your job, you may think to yourself, wow, I really wish I was in gym class right now instead of having to do this. Well, maybe not that, but you get my drift.

[samwiselvr2008]

Originally posted by azalea

This isn't meant to sound snotty, but it's all part of having a well rounded education. I mean, people could say the same about math (beyond the basics). Besides, someday when you're at your job, you may think to yourself, wow, I really wish I was in gym class right now instead of having to do this. Well, maybe not that, but you get my drift.

ya i geuss, that makes sence a little, but not much, infact, i still believe what i did before even though the math thing was true!

anyways, i thought of one more thing:
teachers cumplane withought thinking, i mean, they are complaning about buget cuts, but they allso just got brannew chars in the office, whene the old ones wern't even staned or scrached or anything!

allso, i thougt about this:
teachers allso complane withought thinking about ther pay, they are wasting our edgacation time complaning that they do not get pade enof!!! and then they yell at us for wasting time! and they do get pade enof, b/c they make more then my mom who is a full time worker at the bank, and dosn't even get Christmas Eve of! i mean, they have the summer of, and two weeks at christmas, and thanksgiving and easter....
the list gose ever on and on,
down from the page where it begon,
now far ahead the list is going
and i must keep on if i can,
pursuing it with uneager eyes,
untill it leads into a bigger issue,
where many minds have wondered,
and what they learned, i can not say.

[Lucy Brandybuck]

This thread is very interesting and, as a teacher, one that is near and dear to my own heart. There is much that has been said on this thread that I vehemently disagree with. But first a little backgroud.

I teach at a failing school. You can not believe how much it hurts me to say that. I have been a teacher for five years, which means I will be one of those tenured jerks. Will it change the way I teach? ABSOLUTELY NOT. I get to school every day at 5:45 a.m. I rarely leave school before 4 p.m. and it is usually more like 5 or 6. After school, I tutor and in the spring coach softball, and when I'm doing that, I'm taking to parents and guardians and ALWAYS planning for every contingency that may befall me the next day (from my ancient overhead catching fire to Suusie telling me that she's going to have a baby and her boyfriend beat her up...oh yeah and an enrichment assignemnt for my more academically adept students) In short I work my butt off. I had some classroom management issues my first year but I have learned how to handle them. My students are among the poorest in Indianapolis. I make about $36,000 a year which may sound like a lot but is on average about $5000 dollars less a year than my non-teacher friends make.

As I said I teach at a failing school. My solution? Make parents accountable for their children. Before you say I'm just passing the buck, let me explain. According to the Federal Act "Leave No Child Behind", parents with students at failing schools mus be given the option to send their children to a "non-failing" school. My school was required to notify all parents of this and to tell them their options. We planned a info night to tell the parents their options. Anyone want to guess how many parents (of about 450 students) showed up to learn what they could do for their child? TWO . Forgive me if I'm getting defensive. If the parents of my students gave a rat's behind about their children, I should be out of job, but as it is, I believe I care more about my students than there parents do.

Sorry didn't mean to rant

[Carafin]

I'll start by saying I'm homeschooled, but I have been to public school a few times.
My aunt is a principal in inner city Toronto she's had a lot of problems due to the budget cuts and the teacher union (not enough lunch people, can't use volunteers...)
and the parents at her school care.
I think caring parents only solve so much it's alot but not everything you need money but it can't solve everything either and you need caring teachers. LB is a good example. But not all teachers care the ones who went(and still go) on strike for example. Not all teachers care, it's a pity but it's true. you need a perfect mix of three things, a mix that will not happen except in a Utopian setting unfortunatly. Teachers can be a best friend or a worst nightmare ( as can parents)
3 things I'd change...
Make sure teachers really care(don't know how but...)
National standards and grades(maybe international)
Make sure every student is given a fair chance

I could think of more but I won't bore you

[Starr Polish]

1) Equal emphasis on arts, academics and sports in all high schools (includes funding)
2) More student input taken seriously
3) More focus on dealing with problems instead of putting 'at risk' kids in 'resource' where they are given the answers (at least, this happens in my school)

I can think of more. Like actually getting a competent teacher for our TAG class (Talented and Gifted). Our last one was a ditzy first year English teacher that was afraid of some of her students. Not letting sports people sail through classes with F's and still participate. Not letting rich people in our town get away with things that violate our Good Conduct Code.
Also, our grading scale sucks.

A 95-100%
A- 93-94%
B+ 90-92%
B 87-89%
B- 84-86%
C+ 81-83%
C 79-80%
C- 77-78%
D+ 75-76%
D 72-74%
D-70-71%
F 69% and below

Another thing, course loads should be MORE INTERESTING! Some kids do badly in school not because they don't understand, but because they're bored (including me). Fact: I scored the highest you possibly can on a geometry aptitude test we have to take for three years of high school, yet I got a C in the class, because I hated it and never did anything.
Our class sizes are WAY to big, and the teachers basically have to raise some of the kids they teach, which is wrong. For awhile, our ever growing school had to keep the fourth graders and kindergarteners in the high school, and it's embarassing that they could form a line, say, onto the bus or at lunch, and the high schoolers for the most part, seemed clueless.