Theism

[markedel]

Well in terms of the Jewish God I suppose you would say he's more balanced-The Jewish God would never forgive you for just believing in him, no more then a Jew can be forgiven for just believing in God. From what I understand there is more emphasis in mercy in Christinaity, and more faith. Judaism isn't big into faith. Deeds not words as it were.

As for the miracles problem. It's not that much of a problem. God is hidden from us, so we don't recognize miracles as such. For the Jewish view of such a problem you can read up on Purim, the holiday who's point is to look at such things.

[crickhollow]

I understand that the differences between Judaism and Christianity are much more broad; I was merely stating the obvious in answer to markedel's question about the term "Judeo-Christian". I was also wondering if there was another, more specific reason why the two are so closely associated.

[Wayfarer]

Miracles:
Jesus himself often got on the case of people who wanted miracles They were the sensation seekers, the kinds of people that jump from one thing or another. They were only interested in seeing a show.

Consider the jews in exodus. They saw one miracle after another, and yet still made themselves into troublemakers. Likewise many people throughout the Bible.

Jesus:
Jesus was not just a realy cool person. He claimed, flat out, in front of the religious authorities of the day, that He Was God. How do you take someone like that?

Faith:
Markedhel. Do you recall that 'abraham had faith and it was credited to him as righteousness'? faith and mercy are there int he old testament... they're just not as blatent.

[MasterMothra]

i was raised catholic, but i havent been to church in forever. for the last year i have really been struggling with the concept of a loving god. i do beleive in god, but his portrayal in the bible leaves me puzzled. my wife died aug 31, 2001 of cancer, leaving me with 2 small children to raise. during this time i turned to prayer and god to save my wife. my prayers werent answered unfortunately. so the phrase ask and ye shall receive doesnt hold any value to me. secondly, the phrase" things happen for a reason, it was gods will." has no merit in my experiences. whats the reaon that small children are kidnapped, raped and killed. how could a loving god permit this?
one of the ten commandments is inherantly hypocritical. the one dealing with adultery. correct me if i'm wrong, but did'nt one of god's most trusted servants, abraham, do just that with a slave girl? he was married to sarah, and while married he fathered a child(ishmael) out of wedlock.
i do believe in god(even though my faith has been tested). i'm just not sure if i believe in the bible.

sorry, i should have posted this to the other thread.

[afro-elf]

Originally posted by Wayfarer
I'm not going to get into another foolish and pointless arguement., so I'll keep this breif.

Argument 1: The proof is in the pudding.

I have known too many christians (I must narrow this down-Real Christians. Not professing/intellectual christians) who's lives have radically altered as a result of thier commitment to write it off. Furthermore, despite the vastly different backgrounds and circumstances, we've all changed in very similar ways.

Argument 2: Logicality.

I can't phrase this nearly as well as I want to. But it's next to impossible to justify an atheistic viewpoint. The universe existing on it's own just doesn't make sense. I suppose I could quote you the law of causality: Everything that has a beginning must have a cause. A steady state universe is also highly unlikely.

I could put it like this: Everything that we see and know operates under the same set of natural parameters. The law of causality above is one. Therefore, if it is impossible for the natural system to create itself, we must look somewhere else. The supernatural.

Order cannot arise from chaos. Therefore, all order must ultimately result from a preexisting order, and ultimately you must come to some ordered system that is absolute-it just is.

You must ultimately come back to God.

I can't respond directly because I don't wanna get banned.


BUT i will say that non-theist have replies to your statements.

[emplynx]

Originally posted by MasterMothra
i do beleive in god, but his portrayal in the bible leaves me puzzled. my wife died aug 31, 2001 of cancer, leaving me with 2 small children to raise. during this time i turned to prayer and god to save my wife. my prayers werent answered unfortunately. so the phrase ask and ye shall receive doesnt hold any value to me. secondly, the phrase" things happen for a reason, it was gods will." has no merit in my experiences. whats the reaon that small children are kidnapped, raped and killed. how could a loving god permit this?

Why do bad things happen to good people? That is something I believe all Christians struggle with. I am only 16, and I havn't figured out why, but God is soverign. That I do know.
I have thought how good it would be to die just to figure out God, but then I think about Jesus saying "Then Jesus told him, 'Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.'" (John 20:29) and I realize that God wants me to have faith in him and that I don't need to see him to believe in him.

Originally posted by MasterMothra
one of the ten commandments is inherantly hypocritical. the one dealing with adultery. correct me if i'm wrong, but did'nt one of god's most trusted servants, abraham, do just that with a slave girl? he was married to sarah, and while married he fathered a child(ishmael) out of wedlock.

Yes, Abraham did do this. Also David, one of God's most holy followers also did this. He even had a man killed in battle so he could take his wife.
I don't believe that this makes the Bible hypocritical. This is one of the most sad parts of life - People Sin. God gave humans free will and now they sin. I do it, all Christians do it. I am sorry we do and I wish I didn't...

[Twilight]

I have also struggled a little with why God lets bad things happen. What I have come up with is that as humans, we have a very limited view and can't see everything that comes from a situation. We see the sad part or the evil part of what happened. There are times when we can't see what good comes from it. The creaation myth in the Silmarilion is really good. I wish I had a copy of it to look off of for writting this. It is kind of like the part with the discordant music. Only Eru could see past it to see the beauty that still exsisted and how all would still work out for good. The real world is like that too. Only God can see, we just have to trust that he knows what he is doing.

[Wayfarer]

Originally posted by afro-elf
I can't respond directly because I don't wanna get banned.

BUT i will say that non-theist have replies to your statements.

Page me.

I'm always happy to accept correction. If that correction is correct.

[emplynx]

afro- PM me too, I want to hear...

[markedel]

Judaism was polygamist until around 1000. As for faith beign paramount, it all depends on how you interpert the Bible. Jews interpert the Bible in very different ways from Christians. How I was taught about Abraham is very different from how you're taught about it. It is very difficult to compare "The Old Testament" and "The Tanakh." Beacuse each is taken in different contexts. ANd that isn't taking inot account interperting Hebrew.

[Wayfarer]

I suppose that's true enough.

People have become christians by studying hte tanakh, though.

[Arathorn]

Originally posted by emplynx

Why do bad things happen to good people? That is something I believe all Christians struggle with. I am only 16, and I havn't figured out why, but God is soverign. That I do know. I have thought how good it would be to die just to figure out God, but then I think about Jesus saying "Then Jesus told him, 'Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.'" (John 20:29) and I realize that God wants me to have faith in him and that I don't need to see him to believe in him.

That, I suppose, is the whole point of this exercise called life; as far as our souls are concerned. Since death is inevitable, we'll just have to see in good time. Also, I agree about faith; even after all I've just laid out. Such child-like belief and trust in God is very "cute" and appealing, I think, from His POV.

Originally posted by emplynx

Yes, Abraham did do this. Also David, one of God's most holy followers also did this. He even had a man killed in battle so he could take his wife.
I don't believe that this makes the Bible hypocritical. This is one of the most sad parts of life - People Sin. God gave humans free will and now they sin. I do it, all Christians do it. I am sorry we do and I wish I didn't...

'Reminds me of Isildur and Boromir. Sin: One of the flaws which we humans have to struggle with. I believe this is intrinsic with any degree of free will / power that is given us.

[Nariel Starfire]

If we're looking at it from a Christian point of view, I don't believe the question "why do bad things happen to good people?" is valid. From a Christian POV, we are all "bad" as in we are all sinners. Therefore, a more correct question would be "Why do good things happen to bad people?" to which the answer would be "by the grace of a loving God."

Also, in reference to MasterMothra's statement, there is here a two-part answer.

1st: Sarah was barren. In order to produce an heir, she ordered her handmaiden Hagar to "lie with" her husband. That child would then be Abraham's heir. Sarah didn't know then the God would provide her with a child of her own. It was the same thing Dartagnion did with the Queen of France, to provide Louis XIV with an heir. It's kind of like a surrogate mother thing.

2nd: The actions of a single person do not void the orders of God. Just because one of God's servants broke some of God's rules, that doesn't invalidate the rules themselves.

And just to mix things up a bit more, When Abraham did that, the 10 Commandments weren't around yet.

[afro-elf]

to wayfarer and emplynx


no problem but give me a few days ok?

[Lief Erikson]

About miracles:

I've heard the same question before at the class my parents and I go too, and it has gotten deeper than that. What has happened to our being unable to make a more full connection to the spiritual world? One possible answer is how do you know there aren't miracles happening? Those prophets gave everything they had up to follow Christ, and devoted their lives to him. With that sort of focus and self-sacrifice, it is natural that they were more capable of coming into a much more close relationship with the Lord.

I agree with what was said about sensation-seekers, for those who simply go around looking for miracles. In my faith, whenever I have acted in this way so far I have always run into a brick wall. But when there is a reason behind prayers or requests to the Lord, he certainly is willing to accomplish miracles in your life. He certainly has for me anyway, and if you read other books written by Christians lately, you'll find (If you believe them) that the Lord certainly hasn't ceased in this area. He doesn't always answer prayers however in the way we desire.


About sin:

My beliefs here are somewhat less firmly grounded, as I don't have personal experiences to bolster my own opinions. It wasn't God who allowed sin into the world, it came as the serpent, or the devil, and we know that he started it and caused mankind's fall. Ever since then, all man has had the knowledge of good and evil, and are capable of making their own decisions. God allows us to make our own decisions, and sin does exist. All man is naturally corrupted by that evil now, and it is our nature. However, once one comes to know Jesus Christ, his grace can help to purge that weakness. As one comes more fully into his light and becomes more like him, his nature becomes ours, and our old nature shrinks and becomes less.

It is difficult to understand sometimes why God doesn't simply banish all sin from the world in one deed, but we cannot see all ends of his eternal plan. To claim to be able to do so would be to claim to be God's equal.

[Nibs]

MasterMothra - about the Abraham/adultery thing:

The times were different. VERY different. I mean, just read what Abraham said to his servant in Genesis, chapter 24, verse two. No one does that any more (I think). They also purchased their wives ('cept poor Jacob) and many other things. What Rachel did, in fact, was give him her servant to bear child in her place, which was accepted at the time. Presently, this is obviously not the case. I hope that explanation suffices.

Tribulation afflicting good people... good question. I'll tackle it.

Jesus: "In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world" (John 16:33)

Apparently, afflictions happen to everyone. Some may have things easier than others, but trials surely will come.

"...let my life be much set in the eyes of the Lord, and let him deliver me out of all tribulation" (1 Samuel 26:24)

Personally, what I infer from that is we must conform to previously designated principles to recieve the promised blessings. We see this occur throughout the Bible. God's servants are spared and blessed numerous times. When they are not, I trust that God knows best.

I hope that helps some one.

[MasterMothra]

i lkike the reasoning. i'm just not sure i really believe the bible. the bible to me does not answer any questions, i seem more confused after reaing it.

such as, "will i go to hell if i don't think jesus is the only way to god, or that jc is the son of god?

what was the fate of the indians b/f christianity was introduced? did they go to heaven or hell?

maybe i just don't believe in christianity. too much hypocracy in christianity for it to be representative of gods will.

what part of the bible do i believe? "thou shalt not kill", or "an eye for an eye"?

what do all of you think?

[BeardofPants]

Originally posted by Darkhalcyon
markedel, i don't quite understand what you said.

The idea goes that God created man in his own image, and man looks for himself in God, therefore, man worships himself.*

*Ya, I know, how incredibly sexist, but then, I AM paraphrasing.

[markedel]

In Judaism people aren't naturally sinners. Which doesn't help that much because there's so many more things to violate in Judaism. It is beneficila to non-Jews, as God judges them on a less exacting scale, unlike according to Christianity where I'm doomed for being born. Instead I'm doomed for what I do, or don't do as it may be.

[Andúril]

Darth Tater:

One is for those who believe in religion to post their views and reasons for them, the other is for those who do not subscribe to a set religious world view.

Why do you want to segregate people? My intention here was to promote interaction of those with differing beliefs. I understand your motives in terms of keeping the peace, but hopefully we can keep this one civil.

I would like to respond to the posters here, so that I can in turn get a response from them. If I go and post in a segregated thread which is generally of similar opinion to mine, I will most probably not be challenged, and my thoughts will never be fine-tuned as a result. If this post results in a temporary ban, so be it, but I plead to you, stay your hand

Emplynx:

If some one believes in God, the argument is entirely different. To prove god and to prove that God the Father of Jesus is the true God is entirely different.

I noted that you are a conservative Christian, and you seem to base your beliefs partially on the Paley's Watch idea. His theory does not neccesitate the existence of the Christian God, just by reading what you have posted. If you assume his theory to be correct, then how exactly do you conclude that out of all the other possibilities out there (and there are many), that creation necessarily involved one conscious source, and that the Christian God is the only possible source? It seems that you have jumped way ahead to your conclusion, unless there are other things that you base your beliefs on.

So basically what I would like to know is, what is it that leads you to this conlusion?

...there isn't a better way.

Firstly, what do you mean by "better"? Secondly, there isn't a better way for what?

Crickhollow:

There is nothing more sacred. Therefore, there is nothing more difficult to change.

Perhaps "sacred" is the wrong word. After all, the value of sacredness implies being made holy by religious association, so I doubt a non-religious person would hold any sacred beliefs. But more importantly, I wonder how you can jump from that to your next assumption. Clearly, you are emphasizing the importance of these core beliefs, but that does not necessarily equate with the difficulty of changing such beliefs.

At some point the Christian needs to push aside all arguments and believe on faith. In the same way, at some point the Atheist needs to step out on faith and believe that there is no God.

I think this is incorrect. An atheist does not have a belief in no god, but has no belief in said god - there is a difference. From this I could say that all Christians are atheists in some sense of the word, in that they have no belief in deities of other religions.

The Christian cannot beyond a shadow of all doubt prove that there is a God, and the atheist cannot beyond a shadow of a doubt prove that there is no God.

Why should anyone be justified in believing in the existence of a logically unsound concept? Proof is not always necessary as justification for belief - sufficient probability is.

I cannot believe that, because I see God's hand in more than just the creation of the world. If you like, you can use the word "miracle".

Has it never occurred to you that the drop in perceived miracles is directly proportional to the progression of technology and science? What about the inherent "healing" power of the positive mindset? Have you ever noticed how cured ailments return to people a few days after the "healing"? People have time and again investigated these evangelists who like to "slay in the spirit" those who are gullible enough, and their conclusions are always the same. Never underestimate the power of mass-hallucination. Or the power of mass-hysteria. And of course the profitibility factor.

I spoke with a woman who showed me her scarred and disfigured legs.

Now why would an omnibenevolent being put someone in such a position? Was it "bad luck" that she that misfortune? Although your reference to this mission is not detailed, can I assume that she had prayed to Jesus before the miracle? If so, why wasn't she healed before?

Arathorn:

After much reflection, my best BET and I do mean BET as in wager, is the same as that of Pascal; meaning:
a. if I believe in and strive to do God's will and he exists and made the universe, paradise awaits
b. if I believe in and strive to do God's will and he does not exist, I am merely mistaken
c. if I do not believe in nor strive to do God's will and he exists and made the universe, damnation awaits
d. if I do not believe in nor strive to do God's will and he does not exist, I am merely correct

b. If I believe in and strive to do God's will and he does not exist, I am merely mistaken, and I will be doomed to the "hell" of the one true religion, if it exists. Forgot about that, didn't you?
d. if I do not believe in nor strive to do God's will and he does not exist, I am merely correct, and I will be doomed to the "hell" of the one true religion, if it exists. It seems you have factored out all the other religions somehow. Clearly this wager is more complex than you have stated. Also, it seems that fear is the motive behind this belief - you are afraid of eternal damnation, so you'd rather play it safe and believe.

...normally it wouldn't matter to you whether it were some big scheme to trick you (no DNA test required).

The same is true with God.

Well that obviously depends on the individual in question - you have generalized the importance of truth. I have not witnessed this normal disregard for integrity, honesty and truth in society, and I highly doubt that it exists. Also, you have shown that you do not hold the actuality of God as important.

If you were taught about him all your life, you have faith in that.

Not necessarily - my religious background consists of constant and biased Christian theology that was taught to me from a very young age, for a number of years, and look at me now. Clearly I lack the kind of faith you are talking about - perhaps I am an exception?

You can have many different names and versions of his story but if you all believe in one maker, chances are he's the same one everyone else believes in.

Key word: chances. What do you base your assumptions on?

Wayfarer:

I have known too many christians (I must narrow this down-Real Christians. Not professing/intellectual christians) who's lives have radically altered as a result of thier commitment to write it off. Furthermore, despite the vastly different backgrounds and circumstances, we've all changed in very similar ways.

Are Christians the only ones who have perceived their lives to have changed for the better? I am sure this is true of the majority of other religions. Perhaps you can summarize these radical alterations?

...we must look somewhere else. The supernatural.

Is it not possible and obvious that natural phenomena that are not presently understood by science and other means could be and are classified by people as supernatural? Granted in our current state of knowledge, where many things lack explanations, there will always be people who label these uncertainties as supernatural, and for the students of science who subscribe to this, it may be justified. But that is only justified in our current state. Cast your mind back 1000 years - would the idea of electricity be understood by all? No, it would be classified as supernatural, until science came up with answers. The only assumption I make here is that science will indeed come up with answers sooner or later, and I base this on historical evidence.

You must ultimately come back to God.

Which one?

Twilight:

There are times when we can't see what good comes from it.

Is there always good that comes out of every situation? Also, does the good outweigh the bad?