It CAN'T Be Done? Or Can It? - Page 3

Sween · 01-15-2003, 06:28 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Noahamir
As others have pointed out, the best way to tackle the Simarillion would be to make a movie of one of the stories within the bigger book. Many have pointed to the story Of Beren and Luthien which I think would be the best also.

The way I imagine this movie would be to have a 15 to 20 minute Prologue much like in "Fellowship of the Ring" explaining the back history before diving into the main movie story.

The Prologue would have short scenes and voice narration showing Feanor crafting the Three Simarills, Melkor being released from the Halls of Mandos and then killing Feanor's father while stealing the three Jewels. Show Scenes of Melkor escaping to Middle Earth and placing them in an Iron Crown and Feanor's Oath to recapture the Jewels. Then show Feanor leading the Noldor out of Valinor back to Middle Earth and dying before the gates of Angband by the hands of the Balrog, Gothmag. End the Prologue by saying the Elves settled down in the land of Beariland for a long drawn out siege of Morgoth in Angband. I think this would be a very exciting prologue which could draw in the average movie viewer and inform them as well for the story ahead. Short but Sweet!

The movie would then flash forward to a present time of Beren wandering through the woods as an outlaw and discovering Luthien. They fall in love and Beren is sent on the quest to recover the Simaril by her father. The movie would be able to bring back Sauron from the earlier movies because he captures Beren and Luthien has to rescue him from Sauron. Beren and Luthien sneaking into Angband could surpass the Moria scenes in LOTR. Having the wolf biting off Berens hand would be a very dramatic scene. Beren's hunting down of the wolf would be the climax with Beren dying with Luthien dying soon after of grief. The happy ending would be Mandos returning Beren & Luthien to Middle Earth to live a short time as mortals together in Happiness.

This movie would have something for everybody. Middle Earth, a Love Story, and an Indiana Jones-type adventure story of rescuing a stolen artifact with a strong female character to boot. It seems to me that it could all be told in one movie also instead of having to be split up.

The only title I think would sell would be to have "Lord of the Rings" in the title even though it wouldn't technically be correct. Something like "The Lord of the Rings: The Quest for the Simaril" or something like that.

What do you think?

That would make for a good first couple of movies. I think that it could go on after that with the story of Tour.

Imigin this starting off in the same vain as Fellowship they show the battle of unnumbererd tears (just imigin that) and Hour and Turgons words to each other 'A new hope should arise to from us' (or whatever the hell they say) Then flash forward to a conan type start of Tuor been taken as a slave then escaping and been an outlaw then his meeting with Ulmo and his journey to Gondalin. This could be overlaid with the story of the smilials and the sack of doriath and how elwig came to be in possession of the jelwes (this would add some action to the first movie) would end with elwing escaping and Tuors maridge and the birth of Earendil the blessed.

The second movie would pick up with the theme that would of been established in the first movie of Maeglin's jeliousy of Idril and Tuor love. And his eventualy betral to morgoth. Elwing could be shown at the havens hideing from morgoth as he continued to attack breigland. The big climax of course would the fall of gondalin (imigin all them balrogs and dragons) and the escape of Tuor to the havens and the meeting of Earendil and Elwing. The very end could be them sending out ships to seak the valar.

The third would include the birth of Elrond and Elros and Earendil taking the smalil and sailing off into the west eventually finding the valar then the eventual host comming out the west the blessing of his ship and the desruction and defeat of morgoth. Infact by the sound of it we probably have a good 3 movies there and at least two for Beren and luithiens story.

Now if that does not sound like a good movie i dont know what does.

***Sister Golden Hair*** · 01-15-2003, 06:37 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Noahamir
As others have pointed out, the best way to tackle the Simarillion would be to make a movie of one of the stories within the bigger book. Many have pointed to the story Of Beren and Luthien which I think would be the best also.

The way I imagine this movie would be to have a 15 to 20 minute Prologue much like in "Fellowship of the Ring" explaining the back history before diving into the main movie story.

The Prologue would have short scenes and voice narration showing Feanor crafting the Three Simarills, Melkor being released from the Halls of Mandos and then killing Feanor's father while stealing the three Jewels. Show Scenes of Melkor escaping to Middle Earth and placing them in an Iron Crown and Feanor's Oath to recapture the Jewels. Then show Feanor leading the Noldor out of Valinor back to Middle Earth and dying before the gates of Angband by the hands of the Balrog, Gothmag. End the Prologue by saying the Elves settled down in the land of Beariland for a long drawn out siege of Morgoth in Angband. I think this would be a very exciting prologue which could draw in the average movie viewer and inform them as well for the story ahead. Short but Sweet!

The movie would then flash forward to a present time of Beren wandering through the woods as an outlaw and discovering Luthien. They fall in love and Beren is sent on the quest to recover the Simaril by her father. The movie would be able to bring back Sauron from the earlier movies because he captures Beren and Luthien has to rescue him from Sauron. Beren and Luthien sneaking into Angband could surpass the Moria scenes in LOTR. Having the wolf biting off Berens hand would be a very dramatic scene. Beren's hunting down of the wolf would be the climax with Beren dying with Luthien dying soon after of grief. The happy ending would be Mandos returning Beren & Luthien to Middle Earth to live a short time as mortals together in Happiness.

This movie would have something for everybody. Middle Earth, a Love Story, and an Indiana Jones-type adventure story of rescuing a stolen artifact with a strong female character to boot. It seems to me that it could all be told in one movie also instead of having to be split up.

The only title I think would sell would be to have "Lord of the Rings" in the title even though it wouldn't technically be correct. Something like "The Lord of the Rings: The Quest for the Simaril" or something like that.

What do you think?

Geez! You left out the most important character.

Sween · 01-15-2003, 06:41 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Sister Golden Hair
Geez! You left out the most important character.

whos that then?

***Sister Golden Hair*** · 01-15-2003, 06:51 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Sween
whos that then?

My dear Sween, need you ask? Anyway, I'm sure that Felagund was not really left out, but just not mentioned since the Quest of the Silmaril couldn't happen without him. But, I was just teasing

Sween · 01-15-2003, 06:54 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Sister Golden Hair
My dear Sween, need you ask? Anyway, I'm sure that Felagund was not really left out, but just not mentioned since the Quest of the Silmaril couldn't happen without him. But, I was just teasing

oh right im reading both books (the sil and lord of the rings) similtauously at the moment so im a bit confussed. what u think of my layout for the rest of the story?

***Sister Golden Hair*** · 01-15-2003, 07:02 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Sween
oh right im reading both books (the sil and lord of the rings) similtauously at the moment so im a bit confussed. what u think of my layout for the rest of the story?

Well, like I said early in this thread, I don't think it could be done and do justice to the Sil. To see a battle like the Nirnaeth though would truly be something on the big silver screen.

Noahamir · 01-15-2003, 10:21 PM

Movies can never match the complexity of a Book, so in my mind I was trying to imagine instead how a portion of the Simarillion could be translated into a movie that would try and reach a mass audiences as well as fans of the book.

Just a fun thing for me to think about while I was commuting to work this morning, pretending I was Peter Jackson, and thought I would share!

Yep, I forgot to put in two major characters, Finrod and Huan, who helped in the Quest, but I was afraid my post was getting too long. Hehe! They would be great characters in the movie also! Haun would bring in the "dog-lovers" audience too

Noahamir · 01-15-2003, 10:26 PM

U confused me for a bit with Finrod's dwarvish name, Felagund!

***Sister Golden Hair*** · 01-15-2003, 10:51 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Noahamir
U confused me for a bit with Finrod's dwarvish name, Felagund!

Oh. Sorry.

Seriously though, like I have said, for me a movie of the Silmarillion would not work, at least to my satisfaction. Finrod being my favorite of all Tolkien characters for me, just couldn't be properly depicted. The Silmarillion is such a complex story that it would be a monumental undertaking. I think too, that with the release of the LotRs movies, it would never have its just recognition and would always live in the shadow of those movies.

Agburanar · 01-17-2003, 06:12 AM

I don't think it should be done at all, ever. There is a reason why books are written as books, not as movie or play scripts and Tolkien's stories are some of these. Films are inadequate to carry their character.

Balrog_of_Morgoth · 01-18-2003, 12:46 AM

If I could be in charge I would probably do this:

Start off similar to FOTR by showing several minutes of historical footage to set the stage, perhaps twice as much as in FOTR. This would cover the Music of the Ainur, the coming of the Valar and their strife with Morgoth. The destruction of the Two Trees and theft of the Silmarils could also be a main theme. It would end with the Kinslaying and the Doom of Mandos as the Noldor leave for Middle-Earth.

I would probably center my movie around the Siege of Angband with a focus on Fingolfin, Fingon and Turgon. But I would begin in truly magnificent fashion, showing Feanor's fight with multiple Balrogs. Later in the movie, I would probably include Finrod too, maybe being killed by Sauron himself instead of a werewolf, to add weight to the ancient evilness of Sauron. Doriath and Nargothrond would have to be left out for the most part, but maybe referenced in the movie.

Galadriel could play a large part as well as the emergence of Sauron as the right hand of Morgoth to tie in with the LOTR movies.

The breaking of the siege and Fingolfin's duel with Morgoth could be a highlight. I would probably end the movie with the Fall of Gondolin and then the wrath of the Valar.

At the end I would include some sort of an extended scene that shows Sauron escaping, to wet peoples appetites for the sequel that covers the second age.

Don't be affended by changes to the book, this is only how I think the movie could realistically be made.

I know....Impossible.

Pippin Skywalker · 01-21-2003, 03:33 AM

I must say I like a lot of your ideas.
But also I think this film should be as true to Tolkien as possible since it was the story closest to his heart (encompassing his love for his wife Edith and the loss of his friends and the general HORROR of the First World War).

One strange idea...is filming this as a SILENT film. Yes..you read right SILENT. It would have a lot of visual expression, would require BETTER actors who are really required to emote, and just the vast glorious visuals with rich subtitles would make it very interesting. It would also give the audience the feel of not so much watching a movie but almost "dreaming" about it. You feel like you tookl a time machine and are watching the actual events.
I'm still not sure I would do this for sure but it strikes me as a very fresh,unique idea.

Another thing:

All the actors mentioned here for roles in the Silmarillion are Hollywood actors. The best place to find TRUE QUALITY talent is from the pool of actors that perform on the British and Broadway stage. They are truly based on merit more than looks because that form of acting is more difficult. You want a STELLAR cast? Look for instance in the Royal Shakespeare Company. You might find a guy who can wow your socks off as Feanor.

Agburanar · 01-21-2003, 06:11 AM

Don't be too eager to rate the RSC. I don't want to put down british talent, but they survive mainly on reputation. Their last Shakespeare season was not particularly impressive, more commercial than interesting.

Pippin Skywalker · 01-24-2003, 02:03 AM

Perhaps so. But I still think you can find a lot of talented stage actors even outside RSC. Also there are even movie actors who are not that famous but are nonetheless outstanding.
If I was casting I would want to find people who look as elvish as possible. It's tough but to me elves have thin faces and sort of almond shaped eyes. In the FX department I would ask them to do something to the eyes which makes them almost glow.

Feanor for instance (to me) would have jet black hair, very pale face and bright deep glowing blue eyes.

Agburanar · 01-24-2003, 11:26 AM

Oh don't get me wrong. There's a heap of good British talent, especially outside the RSC!

Elfhelm · 01-24-2003, 04:25 PM

As it happens I am fooling around with the Beren and Luthien chapter in this regard. There are a few problems that come up immediately.

1. Huan and Carcaroth - my personal feeling is that wolves are not evil and I find no wolf in Tolkien that is not evil, so I have no qualms with turning Carcaroth into a sort of ur-Warg. I feel as strongly on this issue as JRRT felt about the destruction of trees, so I apologize to any that would offend but I couldn't possibly permit wolves to be denegrated in this way.

2. Talking animals - well, if it must be then it should be done sparingly, but once you open that box a whole new set of expectations and disbelief suspensions are called up. Huan only speaks three times, and Carcaroth is a monster (see point 1) so it may be dealt with as exceptional rather than the norm.

3. Vampires - The thing is, there are so many different takes on vampires in the modern theatrical/TV audience that you almost have to explain your version of vampires in order to use them, and JRRT's vampires aren't the same as other people's, which makes things even more complicated. So, since they only use a vampire disguise, I think I'll change the travelling costume to something that doesn't have to be explained.

4. The Silmaril - now bear with me on this. The story that Tolkien dreamt up in the trenches when he was missing Edith was about a young man, careworn, who finds love in the arms of a carefree being. The girl's father disallows the union and sends him on an impossible quest. The boy is unable to fulfill the quest without the girl. She saves him. He tries to go off alone again, she insist on going along, and together they fulfill the quest, but - it kills the boy. This was the birth of the Silmaril. At first it was just the object of an impossible quest. Over, what, 40 years it became one of three, associated with a curse, a kinslaying, and so much more. So what does it matter that the whole Silmarillion saga come into play. The boy goes off to get it and when he finally hands (ahem) it to the girl's father, he's dead. That's a story from the trenches, and the Silmarillion is a different story.

5. Number of scenes - As is, there are about a dozen settings. I should make one thing clear, my theoretical problem is of a stage production. The more scenes, the more difficult it becomes to do. I'd like to bring it down to four scene changes. One set I am imagining is a changeable court. It can be Thingol's court, get altered slightly and become Finrod's court, get darkened and become Sauron's court, and twisted into Morgoth's court. Another set is "your basic forest" which can have Hirilorn added or removed, or a waterfall added and removed. Many different encounters happen in the changeable forest - Luthien dances, Beren hollers that he is a friend while holding up the ring, two sons of Feanor get their butts kicked, Beren tries to abandon Luthien, Luthien later heals him in a forest, and with the addition of Hirilorn and a waterfall at points, this pretty much fills out the set problems.

6. The prologue - There is already so much that I think we can skip watching Beren take revenge on a dozen Orcs for killing his father.

7. The epilogue - Now this is a major problem. Up until this point he hasn't stretched credulity beyond all disbelief, but Luthien appealling to Mandos and her choice of mortality, their return to a dismal father and their subsequent decision to live together apart from her father's people and all the misery involved in that is cool for us, but it takes away the real zing of the story - which is that a father can not stop a daughter from doing what she pleases, and any attempt to force your will on her will result in a sundering between you that may never be made whole again. So her lament at the foot of Hirilorn, Beren's burial, and the Silmaril in all its useless beauty in the grasp of Thingol should be enough to convey the meaning of the story.

8. The hook - I am thinking that it makes more sense for Thingol to imprison his daughter FIRST, then send Beren on the quest. Otherwise, why didn't Luthien just defy him from the start? The couple seems a little wishy-washy trying to please the father when all they ever had to do was take each other's hands and flee. And the real life equivalent is the cause of this oddity. Tolkien was young and he was told that Edith was too old for him and all he had to do was defy authority, but he didn't. So if authority already has imprisoned the object of your affection, it's a lot more respectable to go off questing to win her back.

9. Not very much dialogue in the story. It would have to be made up.

So as you can see, it's practically impossible. And the Tolkien fans would hate all the changes. Imagine trying to make a huge talking hound and a huge talking wolf have a dogfight that the SPCA would permit that ends up killing both of them, as your climax. It works better in a book.

Balrog_of_Morgoth · 01-24-2003, 07:28 PM

Elfhelm:

I agree wholeheartedly about Beren and Luthien. It is touching, but I've always liked that story least of all the Silmarillion. It just has too many instances that are totally unbelievable. For example:

The talking creatures, as you said above

Sauron being defeated by Huan

Luthien putting a sleep spell on Morgoth who was unbelievably powerful

The whole Vampire/Werewolf bit. He should never had included those terms. They stray from the whole feel of the rest of his works and are not believable.

Luthien being able to simply use "her arts" to disguise them as the agents of Morgoth and Sauron. Yes she had Maiar blood in her, but come on!

These are the reasons I left out this portion of the Sil in my post above, regarding the making of a movie.

Falagar · 01-24-2003, 07:30 PM

(just to answer the thread title

IMHO, it can't be done. It just can't.

Pippin Skywalker · 01-24-2003, 09:22 PM

I'm sorry you think badly of Beren & Luthien's tale because of those things. I find many things in that tale very enriching to the Sil not the other way around. Personally I WOULD keep the werewolf idea possibly the vampire one too if I made the film. It made the time period more frightening and those who did brave deeds seem braver. The point is the world of the Silmarillion was a lot scarier than living in the War of the Ring's time. You had morgoth (even the name is scarier than sauron), sauron as a smaller officer under him, werewolves, orcs, dragons,giant bats, Ungoliant the giant spider and Balrogs a plenty for just 4.99 a wing! (

) Also it was much grander because all the greatest elves were in existance. That is part of what make the Sil so awesome...it's scale and scope is broad as an ocean.
I think if done right...with someone who pays enough attention to the story and the creation of dialogue and yet stays as true to Tolkien as possible (putting special effects second to these things) it could be marvelous.
Remember few liked Bakshi's LOTR and if people had become too cynical said "Well they can only make it aweful don't make the film again" then we would have closed the door to Jackson's much more reasonable adaption. The most important thing is a good director who has a record of being story driven. IMHO I would NOT pass this project to George Lucas or even Peter Jackson because it should be filmed in a different way than those directors. No Jar Jar Huan if you know what I mean.

Elfhelm · 01-25-2003, 12:51 AM

and no Clifford Huan either.

01-17-2003, 06:12 AM	#50
Agburanar Elf Lord Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Dorset Posts: 608	I don't think it should be done at all, ever. There is a reason why books are written as books, not as movie or play scripts and Tolkien's stories are some of these. Films are inadequate to carry their character. __________________ I would wish, were it to any avail, that the LORD OF THE RINGS FILMS had never been wrought. ROLLING STOCK, WE'RE ROLLING STOCK!!

01-18-2003, 12:46 AM	#51
Balrog_of_Morgoth Elven Warrior Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Parkersburg WV Posts: 110	If I could be in charge I would probably do this: Start off similar to FOTR by showing several minutes of historical footage to set the stage, perhaps twice as much as in FOTR. This would cover the Music of the Ainur, the coming of the Valar and their strife with Morgoth. The destruction of the Two Trees and theft of the Silmarils could also be a main theme. It would end with the Kinslaying and the Doom of Mandos as the Noldor leave for Middle-Earth. I would probably center my movie around the Siege of Angband with a focus on Fingolfin, Fingon and Turgon. But I would begin in truly magnificent fashion, showing Feanor's fight with multiple Balrogs. Later in the movie, I would probably include Finrod too, maybe being killed by Sauron himself instead of a werewolf, to add weight to the ancient evilness of Sauron. Doriath and Nargothrond would have to be left out for the most part, but maybe referenced in the movie. Galadriel could play a large part as well as the emergence of Sauron as the right hand of Morgoth to tie in with the LOTR movies. The breaking of the siege and Fingolfin's duel with Morgoth could be a highlight. I would probably end the movie with the Fall of Gondolin and then the wrath of the Valar. At the end I would include some sort of an extended scene that shows Sauron escaping, to wet peoples appetites for the sequel that covers the second age. Don't be affended by changes to the book, this is only how I think the movie could realistically be made. I know....Impossible. __________________ Fingolfin: The Mighty Elven Lord who challenged Morgoth to single combat! Last edited by Balrog_of_Morgoth : 01-18-2003 at 12:07 PM.

01-21-2003, 03:33 AM	#52
Pippin Skywalker Enting Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Long Island, New York Posts: 93	I must say I like a lot of your ideas. But also I think this film should be as true to Tolkien as possible since it was the story closest to his heart (encompassing his love for his wife Edith and the loss of his friends and the general HORROR of the First World War). One strange idea...is filming this as a SILENT film. Yes..you read right SILENT. It would have a lot of visual expression, would require BETTER actors who are really required to emote, and just the vast glorious visuals with rich subtitles would make it very interesting. It would also give the audience the feel of not so much watching a movie but almost "dreaming" about it. You feel like you tookl a time machine and are watching the actual events. I'm still not sure I would do this for sure but it strikes me as a very fresh,unique idea. Another thing: All the actors mentioned here for roles in the Silmarillion are Hollywood actors. The best place to find TRUE QUALITY talent is from the pool of actors that perform on the British and Broadway stage. They are truly based on merit more than looks because that form of acting is more difficult. You want a STELLAR cast? Look for instance in the Royal Shakespeare Company. You might find a guy who can wow your socks off as Feanor. __________________ Gimli: I'm Short! I'm Bad! I'm King of Khazaad! Note: That was not an actual quote from J.R.R. Tolkien's novel!

01-21-2003, 06:11 AM	#53
Agburanar Elf Lord Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Dorset Posts: 608	Don't be too eager to rate the RSC. I don't want to put down british talent, but they survive mainly on reputation. Their last Shakespeare season was not particularly impressive, more commercial than interesting. __________________ I would wish, were it to any avail, that the LORD OF THE RINGS FILMS had never been wrought. ROLLING STOCK, WE'RE ROLLING STOCK!!

01-24-2003, 02:03 AM	#54
Pippin Skywalker Enting Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Long Island, New York Posts: 93	Perhaps so. But I still think you can find a lot of talented stage actors even outside RSC. Also there are even movie actors who are not that famous but are nonetheless outstanding. If I was casting I would want to find people who look as elvish as possible. It's tough but to me elves have thin faces and sort of almond shaped eyes. In the FX department I would ask them to do something to the eyes which makes them almost glow. Feanor for instance (to me) would have jet black hair, very pale face and bright deep glowing blue eyes. __________________ Gimli: I'm Short! I'm Bad! I'm King of Khazaad! Note: That was not an actual quote from J.R.R. Tolkien's novel!

01-15-2003, 10:21 PM	#47
Noahamir Hobbit Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: San Diego, CA Posts: 29	Movies can never match the complexity of a Book, so in my mind I was trying to imagine instead how a portion of the Simarillion could be translated into a movie that would try and reach a mass audiences as well as fans of the book. Just a fun thing for me to think about while I was commuting to work this morning, pretending I was Peter Jackson, and thought I would share! Yep, I forgot to put in two major characters, Finrod and Huan, who helped in the Quest, but I was afraid my post was getting too long. Hehe! They would be great characters in the movie also! Haun would bring in the "dog-lovers" audience too

01-15-2003, 10:26 PM	#48
Noahamir Hobbit Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: San Diego, CA Posts: 29	U confused me for a bit with Finrod's dwarvish name, Felagund!

01-24-2003, 11:26 AM	#55
Agburanar Elf Lord Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Dorset Posts: 608	Oh don't get me wrong. There's a heap of good British talent, especially outside the RSC! __________________ I would wish, were it to any avail, that the LORD OF THE RINGS FILMS had never been wrought. ROLLING STOCK, WE'RE ROLLING STOCK!!

01-24-2003, 04:25 PM	#56
Elfhelm Marshal of the Eastmark Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Portland, OR Posts: 1,412	As it happens I am fooling around with the Beren and Luthien chapter in this regard. There are a few problems that come up immediately. 1. Huan and Carcaroth - my personal feeling is that wolves are not evil and I find no wolf in Tolkien that is not evil, so I have no qualms with turning Carcaroth into a sort of ur-Warg. I feel as strongly on this issue as JRRT felt about the destruction of trees, so I apologize to any that would offend but I couldn't possibly permit wolves to be denegrated in this way. 2. Talking animals - well, if it must be then it should be done sparingly, but once you open that box a whole new set of expectations and disbelief suspensions are called up. Huan only speaks three times, and Carcaroth is a monster (see point 1) so it may be dealt with as exceptional rather than the norm. 3. Vampires - The thing is, there are so many different takes on vampires in the modern theatrical/TV audience that you almost have to explain your version of vampires in order to use them, and JRRT's vampires aren't the same as other people's, which makes things even more complicated. So, since they only use a vampire disguise, I think I'll change the travelling costume to something that doesn't have to be explained. 4. The Silmaril - now bear with me on this. The story that Tolkien dreamt up in the trenches when he was missing Edith was about a young man, careworn, who finds love in the arms of a carefree being. The girl's father disallows the union and sends him on an impossible quest. The boy is unable to fulfill the quest without the girl. She saves him. He tries to go off alone again, she insist on going along, and together they fulfill the quest, but - it kills the boy. This was the birth of the Silmaril. At first it was just the object of an impossible quest. Over, what, 40 years it became one of three, associated with a curse, a kinslaying, and so much more. So what does it matter that the whole Silmarillion saga come into play. The boy goes off to get it and when he finally hands (ahem) it to the girl's father, he's dead. That's a story from the trenches, and the Silmarillion is a different story. 5. Number of scenes - As is, there are about a dozen settings. I should make one thing clear, my theoretical problem is of a stage production. The more scenes, the more difficult it becomes to do. I'd like to bring it down to four scene changes. One set I am imagining is a changeable court. It can be Thingol's court, get altered slightly and become Finrod's court, get darkened and become Sauron's court, and twisted into Morgoth's court. Another set is "your basic forest" which can have Hirilorn added or removed, or a waterfall added and removed. Many different encounters happen in the changeable forest - Luthien dances, Beren hollers that he is a friend while holding up the ring, two sons of Feanor get their butts kicked, Beren tries to abandon Luthien, Luthien later heals him in a forest, and with the addition of Hirilorn and a waterfall at points, this pretty much fills out the set problems. 6. The prologue - There is already so much that I think we can skip watching Beren take revenge on a dozen Orcs for killing his father. 7. The epilogue - Now this is a major problem. Up until this point he hasn't stretched credulity beyond all disbelief, but Luthien appealling to Mandos and her choice of mortality, their return to a dismal father and their subsequent decision to live together apart from her father's people and all the misery involved in that is cool for us, but it takes away the real zing of the story - which is that a father can not stop a daughter from doing what she pleases, and any attempt to force your will on her will result in a sundering between you that may never be made whole again. So her lament at the foot of Hirilorn, Beren's burial, and the Silmaril in all its useless beauty in the grasp of Thingol should be enough to convey the meaning of the story. 8. The hook - I am thinking that it makes more sense for Thingol to imprison his daughter FIRST, then send Beren on the quest. Otherwise, why didn't Luthien just defy him from the start? The couple seems a little wishy-washy trying to please the father when all they ever had to do was take each other's hands and flee. And the real life equivalent is the cause of this oddity. Tolkien was young and he was told that Edith was too old for him and all he had to do was defy authority, but he didn't. So if authority already has imprisoned the object of your affection, it's a lot more respectable to go off questing to win her back. 9. Not very much dialogue in the story. It would have to be made up. So as you can see, it's practically impossible. And the Tolkien fans would hate all the changes. Imagine trying to make a huge talking hound and a huge talking wolf have a dogfight that the SPCA would permit that ends up killing both of them, as your climax. It works better in a book. __________________ cya

01-24-2003, 07:28 PM	#57
Balrog_of_Morgoth Elven Warrior Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Parkersburg WV Posts: 110	Elfhelm: I agree wholeheartedly about Beren and Luthien. It is touching, but I've always liked that story least of all the Silmarillion. It just has too many instances that are totally unbelievable. For example: The talking creatures, as you said above Sauron being defeated by Huan Luthien putting a sleep spell on Morgoth who was unbelievably powerful The whole Vampire/Werewolf bit. He should never had included those terms. They stray from the whole feel of the rest of his works and are not believable. Luthien being able to simply use "her arts" to disguise them as the agents of Morgoth and Sauron. Yes she had Maiar blood in her, but come on! These are the reasons I left out this portion of the Sil in my post above, regarding the making of a movie. __________________ Fingolfin: The Mighty Elven Lord who challenged Morgoth to single combat!

01-24-2003, 07:30 PM	#58
Falagar Death of Mooters and [Entmoot] Internal Affairs Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Oslo, Norway Posts: 2,870	(just to answer the thread title IMHO, it can't be done. It just can't. __________________ Fëanor - Innocence incarnated Still, Aikanáro 'till the Last battle.

01-24-2003, 09:22 PM	#59
Pippin Skywalker Enting Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Long Island, New York Posts: 93	I'm sorry you think badly of Beren & Luthien's tale because of those things. I find many things in that tale very enriching to the Sil not the other way around. Personally I WOULD keep the werewolf idea possibly the vampire one too if I made the film. It made the time period more frightening and those who did brave deeds seem braver. The point is the world of the Silmarillion was a lot scarier than living in the War of the Ring's time. You had morgoth (even the name is scarier than sauron), sauron as a smaller officer under him, werewolves, orcs, dragons,giant bats, Ungoliant the giant spider and Balrogs a plenty for just 4.99 a wing! () Also it was much grander because all the greatest elves were in existance. That is part of what make the Sil so awesome...it's scale and scope is broad as an ocean. I think if done right...with someone who pays enough attention to the story and the creation of dialogue and yet stays as true to Tolkien as possible (putting special effects second to these things) it could be marvelous. Remember few liked Bakshi's LOTR and if people had become too cynical said "Well they can only make it aweful don't make the film again" then we would have closed the door to Jackson's much more reasonable adaption. The most important thing is a good director who has a record of being story driven. IMHO I would NOT pass this project to George Lucas or even Peter Jackson because it should be filmed in a different way than those directors. No Jar Jar Huan if you know what I mean. __________________ Gimli: I'm Short! I'm Bad! I'm King of Khazaad! Note: That was not an actual quote from J.R.R. Tolkien's novel! Last edited by Pippin Skywalker : 01-24-2003 at 09:25 PM.

01-25-2003, 12:51 AM	#60
Elfhelm Marshal of the Eastmark Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Portland, OR Posts: 1,412	and no Clifford Huan either. __________________ cya