who is oldest?

[Tar-Elenion]

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Sure, but it's 'which Durin' that is important. All the Durins awoke, you know,
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Actually we dont *know* that. App. A states that "five times an heir was born in his House so like to his Forefather that he received the name of Durin". It notes Durin I as sleeping alone until the awakening of the Dwarves and then goes to Kheled-zaram.

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and we don't know how much time passes during the song. Which Durin in Khazad-dum are they talking about?
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We do know that the Durin of the song is Durin I. The Durin of the song is the one who names the nameless hills and dells. This would be the Durin who awakes and comes to Azanulbizar in App. A. Thus the Durin of the song is Durin I who wakes. And he wakes with an unstained Moon in the heavens to be seen.


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When were the lamps made with the light of sun, star and moon trapped within them? This is not known.
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I have not been addressing the lamps, only the fact of the Moon when *there was no Moon*. But since there was a Moon then the Sun is not out of the question and the lamps made with their light in Durin's Day, which by Men's mythology was before Sun and Moon were made.


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It seems unlikely to me that Tolkien should have had any sort of scientific mythology in his head when he was writing the LotR. Didn't this arise much later, in the late sixties or early seventies?
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No. The essays in Myths Transformed are from ca 1960 as is the Athrabeth, both of which deal with a 'scientific' cosmology (CT gives dates ranging from 1955-1960, but indicates the later is more likely correct). Thes are of course post LotR. However there is the Ainulindale C* text. According to CT the evidence suggests that C* was extant by 1948. The C* text is a 'scientific' version.


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When they were drawn makes all the difference! You can't take different writings (or illustrations) from different time periods and throw them together, that won't make for consistency.
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Yes, I can. Especially when JRRT himself reconciles it, noting that the 'astronomically absurd' making of the Sun and Moon are Mannish Myth, while the Eldar know better. Thus allowing for Finwe to have a Sun as his device (and it making more sence for the device of Elwe to be a Moon).

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Finwe with a Sun for his device obviously belongs to the period of the scientific mythology. If I accept the more primitive mythos, than I of course do not accept the devices which contradict it.
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That is your choice of course, though I try to reconcile 'apparent' contradictions before rejecting anything out of hand, with an attempt to use the published canon (LotR, RGEO and The Hobbit) as a guideline to consistancy.

[Ñólendil]

Actually we dont *know* that. App. A states that "five times an heir was born in his House so like to his Forefather that he received the name of Durin". It notes Durin I as sleeping alone until the awakening of the Dwarves and then goes to Kheled-zaram.

Sure we do! You can read about it in The Peoples of Middle-earth, Late Writings, Last Writings, Glorfindel. Whenever Durin dies, any hurts his body suffered are healed, and he lies 'asleep' in a 'tomb' of his own body. Whenever a King in his direct line of descent dies without an heir, Durin awakes and takes up the Kingship again. He would in that life be Durin II if he had been Durin I in his previous one. So all the Durins awoke, and were not born.

We do know that the Durin of the song is Durin I.

In the first verse, it is certainly Durin I. But when Gimli gets to 'A king he was on carven throne, in many pillared halls of stone~', it can go for any of the Durins who ruled in Khazad-dum, except probably Durin VI, since his realm was decaying in his time. But in the last verse, 'The darkness dwells in Durin's halls. The shadow lies upon his tomb, in Mória, in Khazad-dum', this must be speaking of Durin VI. And the final line 'until Durin wakes again from sleep', that Durin will be Durin VII and Last. But still, all the words about Khazad-dum could go for any time when it was in power, and Tolkien specifies the Second Age as the time when it grew to its greatest splendour, in a letter I think. Also the only mention of a moon is not in relation to Durin's awakening, it is in relation to the lights that the lamps of the Dwarrowdelf were filled with.

No. The essays in Myths Transformed are from ca 1960 as is the Athrabeth, both of which deal with a 'scientific' cosmology (CT gives dates ranging from 1955-1960, but indicates the later is more likely correct). Thes are of course post LotR. However there is the Ainulindale C* text. According to CT the evidence suggests that C* was extant by 1948. The C* text is a 'scientific' version.

All right, but granting the C* text as being written in 1946, the ca 1960 Myths Transformed writings bear some curious choices of words. 'You cannot do this anymore' in the first text. Tolkien was finally deciding that there must be a scientific mythology, he was finally throwing away the 'absurd' ideas. He had apparently kept them previously, if even reluctantly, or he had been unsure. The LotR lies in this time period. Can it really be said for certain that Tolkien had a scientific myth in his head? I do not believe so.

Yes, I can. Especially when JRRT himself reconciles it, noting that the 'astronomically absurd' making of the Sun and Moon are Mannish Myth, while the Eldar know better.

Of course he reconciles it, there must always be explanations. What I meant was that these devices do not prove one thing or another about the ideas Tolkien had while writing the Lord of the Rings! If you accept them and the mythology they are connected to, they will naturally fit into the Lord of the Rings setting because of the explanations. Anyway, as I have said earlier, Tolkien went further than to chalk up the absurd astronomy as Mannish Myth, he did not see that as a solution.

I will tell you that the only reason I don't accept this latest idea is because of its haphazard state, and its endless questions that it raises. He just didn't have time to rewrite everything, we don't have as much info. as that found in the primitive legendarium. Because I accept the primitive one (which I believe IMPO to be more in accord with the Lord of the Rings), I can't accept Finwe's device.

Now, if you were to tell me that the Road Goes Ever On supports you, and if you were to quote passages which are obviously more in accord with the scientific legendarium, I would have to shake your hand and tell you that you one, and accept your way. For RGEO was published in Tolkien's life, and he would have felt bound by everything in it, if he remembered.

[Tar-Elenion]

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Sure we do! You can read about it in The Peoples of Middle-earth, Late Writings, Last Writings, Glorfindel. Whenever Durin dies, any hurts his body suffered are healed, and he lies 'asleep' in a 'tomb' of his own body. Whenever a King in his direct line of descent dies without an heir, Durin awakes and takes up the Kingship again. He would in that life be Durin II if he had been Durin I in his previous one. So all the Durins awoke, and were not born.
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Yes, I am aware of the Glorfindel text.

First let me quote you:
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Quote: You can't take different writings (or illustrations) from different time periods and throw them together, that won't make for consistency.
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Second let me quote LotR:
"but his [Durin's] line never failed and five times an heir was born in his House so like to his Forefather that he received the name of Durin".
Note _born_. Not ressurected.

Third lets note several things about the statements in the Glorfindel essay (and there are 3 relatively (or so it _seems_) distinct statements):
One: these are noted to be a 'record of emerging thought', not a distinct conclusion (similar to the question of 'where do Orcs come from' to draw an analogy).
One A: First we have Dwarvish tradition that says the spirits of the Seven Fathers were reborn on occasion in their kindreds, particularly in case of the Longbeards whose forefather, Durin, had his name taken by his direct descendants.
What is most interesting to note about this essay is when the Dwarf Fathers 'awoke' "far back in the First Age (it is supposed, soon after the awakening of Men)" and end note 23 mentions the Dwarves as the "third children" of Eru. Note that this text is a "scientific" mythology text. If Dwarves awoke soon after Men and Men awoke only when Fingolfin entered Beleriand then the Dwarves could not have aided Thingol etc etc etc.

One B: This is in actually a continuation of One A, not a seperate tradition. This notes that the spirits of the Dwarf Fathers should fall asleep and each should 'lie in a tomb of his own body at rest until it is healed of hurst and weariness, and then it will arise after long years and take up the kingship again'. This is what you are using in your above statement, but you are combining it with the variant tradition that CT calls the 'second version'. I read this rising as a rising of the 'spirit' not the body which is reborn into a descendant. Now of course endnote 25 can be used to counter this but first note that CT states that there is no indication of where it was to go, and also note that it is a supposition for JRRT to consider, not the answer to a question.

One C: Now this variant actually mentions the spirit returning to the preserved body and that this accounts for the return of the Forefathers. I think this is what Endnote 25 was probably refering to. This variant is also presented as supossition ('probably' and 'seems'). The 'second version' and endnote 25 seem to confuse the issue of what 'One B' was saying. But as the One B is the conclusion to One A which asserts spirits being reborn, then One B should be talking about the spirit rising and being reborn not the body.

But as I mentioned earlier the most interesting thing in this essay, is that it is 'scientific'.


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In the first verse, it is certainly Durin I. But when Gimli gets to 'A king he was on carven throne, in many pillared halls of stone~', it can go for any of the Durins who ruled in Khazad-dum, except probably Durin VI, since his realm was decaying in his time.
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The first two verses are unarguably refering to Durin I. So to is the third 'A king _he_ was on carven throne'. The only 'he' mentioned to that point is Durin I 'He named, He drank, He stooped, saw, his head'.

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But in the last verse, 'The darkness dwells in Durin's halls. The shadow lies upon his tomb, in Mória, in Khazad-dum', this must be speaking of Durin VI.
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The tomb is that of Durin I (the only 'he, his' referred to). Note again in App. A where it states of Durin I that "his tomb was in Khazad-dum". Also note that the 'shadow lies upon his tomb in Moria in Khazad-dum' is followed by 'But still the sunken stars appear In dark and windless Mirrormere; there lies his crown in water deep' refering back to the first verse when after Durin I awoke 'He stooped and looked in Mirrormere, and saw a crown of stars appear'. But of course the various Durins are all Durin I in _spirit_.

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And the final line 'until Durin wakes again from sleep', that Durin will be Durin VII and Last.
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Yet Durin VII and Durin I are the 'same'.

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But still, all the words about Khazad-dum could go for any time when it was in power, and Tolkien specifies the Second Age as the time when it grew to its greatest splendour, in a letter I think. Also the only mention of a moon is not in relation to Durin's awakening, it is in relation to the lights that the lamps of the Dwarrowdelf were filled with.
-----------------------

Do you have different version of this song than I? It reads:
The world was young, the mountains green,
No stain yet upon the Moon was seen,
No words were laid on stream or stone
When Durin woke and walked alone.

When Durin woke the Moon was there.


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All right, but granting the C* text as being written in 1946, the ca 1960 Myths Transformed writings bear some curious choices of words. 'You cannot do this anymore' in the first text. Tolkien was finally deciding that there must be a scientific mythology, he was finally throwing away the 'absurd' ideas. He had apparently kept them previously, if even reluctantly, or he had been unsure. The LotR lies in this time period. Can it really be said for certain that Tolkien had a scientific myth in his head? I do not believe so.
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Once again, I have said it is more in keeping with a tradition presented in LotR. I have not made any statements concerning what was in his mind.


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Of course he reconciles it, there must always be explanations. What I meant was that these devices do not prove one thing or another about the ideas Tolkien had while writing the Lord of the Rings!
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And again I have not been addressing what he had in mind while writing LotR, however while he was writing LotR he was also writing a 'scientific' mythology.


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Anyway, as I have said earlier, Tolkien went further than to chalk up the absurd astronomy as Mannish Myth, he did not see that as a solution.
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I fail to see your point. Elaborate.


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I will tell you that the only reason I don't accept this latest idea is because of its haphazard state, and its endless questions that...[snip]
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Not accepting the idea is just fine. There are various conceptions that I dont care for or accept. I like the MT conceptions because of the further depth it adds to the Legendarium.


Re: RGEO
I dont think there is anything in it that confirms or denies the matter (possibly there is one thing but that might be further semantics, I will research).

[Ñólendil]

Second let me quote LotR:
"but his [Durin's] line never failed and five times an heir was born in his House so like to his Forefather that he received the name of Durin".
Note _born_. Not ressurected.

Yes, I know, it has been pointed out to me before. But that can be explained as a difference in culture. To get Biblical: Jesus is supposed to be the Messiah because of his lineage, from father to son, of the Kings. Yet his father was not his biological father. As the story goes he is the son of God, but also the rightful King. This is because the culture he was born into had a different idea of kinship. A father could actually disown his own son, he could say 'you are not by son' and it would be true, regardless of biology. Similarly your son could easily be someone who did not share your blood and there would be no cause for question. What am I getting at? Difference of culture. 'He is my father' might have conveyed something slightly different to an ancient inhabitant of the Middle-east than it does now to you or I (though we have adoption, of course).

Dwarven Fathers might be said to have been born, even if they were not literally born, as Tolkien said they were not. For they may regard it differently. Also there is the matter of internally consistent mistakes: secretive Dwarves being secretive about their ways, and Mannish ideas getting into Human documents. I have no doubt, as I suppose you have no doubt, that when Tolkien wrote the LotR he was thinking of actual rebirth, and used 'awaken' figuratively. But he changed his mind and kept it consistent, and it works. 'When Durin wakes from sleep' may now be interpreted more literally.

My argument is not that 'Glorfindel' was not scientific, but that the Dwarf-fathers awoke.

I can continue with this and argue every point maybe, but I find that I have not the energy to keep digging out PoMe and debating, so I won't.

Do you have different version of this song than I? It reads:
The world was young, the mountains green,
No stain yet upon the Moon was seen,
No words were laid on stream or stone
When Durin woke and walked alone.

When Durin woke the Moon was there.

Yes, you're quite right. I should have went through that in my head once more. Well, *laughs*, I can't argue with that. Curious, very curious.

[Tar-Elenion]

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Dwarven Fathers might be said to have been born, even if they were not literally born, as Tolkien said they were not. For they may regard it differently.
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As I noted earlier JRRT said different things. He said the Dwarf Fathers were sometimes reborn. He said their spirits rested in a tomb of the Father's (dead) body and then left. He said their spirits returned to the (dead) body and the body was awakened again. These are various concepts to which there is no firm conclusion. I mentioned a similar case earlier: Orcs as Elves, Men, Beasts, automatons or other. Cases can be made for all these.

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Also there is the matter of internally consistent mistakes: secretive Dwarves being secretive about their ways, and Mannish ideas getting into Human documents.
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Hmm, 'Mannish ideas', where have I heard that applied before?


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I can continue with this and argue every point maybe, but I find that I have not the energy to keep digging out PoMe and debating, so I won't.
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Okay. Thanks for the debate.

[Elrond]

Bombadil is the eldest, my theory is treebeard does not know of bombadil.

[Ace]

I think Bombadil is eldest. He was hear when the first drop of rain fell. As far as those who are complaining about this thread. No one has to look at the thread if they're bored. Tom Bombadil is a very interesting character and deserves multiple threads. He rules, and could kick everyone's butt except maybe Sauron.

"If the choice be mine, I say, we march!"

[Kirinki54]

Originally posted by Ace
Tom Bombadil is a very interesting character and deserves multiple threads. He rules, and could kick everyone's butt except maybe Sauron.

"If the choice be mine, I say, we march!"

I agree Tom is interesting.
On his abilities to 'kick butt' we really cannot say. We know not what he his or what his powers really are.

[Ñólendil]

I thought we agreed he was a Knee-walking Turkey from the Land of the Knee-walking Turkeys? As such his main powers would be hobbling about on his knees and clucking powerful Turkey-spells, or possibly something else.

At least we can be certain that Tom has got wings, and no ears to speak of.

[Wayfarer]

If he was a knee walking turkey... wouldn't it be safe to wsay that he could _not_ kick anybody's butt?

Now... Kneeing... that's a whole other story.

[Kirinki54]

Well... If you say so.
Tom better watch out then. It´s soon Christmas!