A few questions about the Maiar - Page 3

Lefty Scaevola · 10-17-2004, 02:37 PM

I suspect there may be large numbers of Maiar who have expended much of the being in creation and have gone 'rustic' or 'native' in areas of Arda that they have worked on creating. They could easily pass as elves for a indefinite period of time.

mewhmag · 10-18-2004, 10:32 AM

Quote:

4. Are the Istari also Maia?

my take on this is that the Istari are Maia who have the explicit order to take part of the action in Middle-Earth, not in Valinor. Some of them staying true to their mission, some of them not. hum, i just wonder what would have happened if the Balrog stayed true...

Lenya · 10-18-2004, 04:08 PM

I think there are deffinately still Maiar left in ME. It is said in Sil that there were so many Maiar that not even the Valar knew their numbers. I find it highly unlikely that none of them remain in ME. After all, they all have their own jobs to do, who knows what might go wrong if they all simply leave?

Radagast The Brown · 10-18-2004, 05:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lenya

I think there are deffinately still Maiar left in ME. It is said in Sil that there were so many Maiar that not even the Valar knew their numbers. I find it highly unlikely that none of them remain in ME. After all, they all have their own jobs to do, who knows what might go wrong if they all simply leave?

I'm pretty sure the Valar did know their numbers. It seems very unlikel;y to me at least, that they won't know all their "brothers".. it's not like the number of the Maiar was uncountable.
I thin the Valaquenta is from the point of view of the Elves.

Finrod Felagund · 10-18-2004, 09:46 PM

Well I believe I mentioned this in another place...but it is appropriate in this thread.

I do not believe that it is ever said who is the greatest of the maiar...however...

Eonwe is called "the greatest in arms" of anyone in Arda...

And Olorin is said to be the wisest of the maiar.

Other than that we can say little...

Lenya · 10-20-2004, 04:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Finrod Felagund

Well I believe I mentioned this in another place...but it is appropriate in this thread.

I do not believe that it is ever said who is the greatest of the maiar...however...

Eonwe is called "the greatest in arms" of anyone in Arda...

And Olorin is said to be the wisest of the maiar.

Other than that we can say little...

This question depends on how you look at it. Eonwe might be the greatest maia from an earthly point of view, but if you look at the sky for example, surely Melien are the greatest. Therefore I do not think such a question can truly be answered without doing some of them injustice.

Telcontar_Dunedain · 11-30-2004, 01:12 PM

Why were the Balrog's created as Maiar? Were they originally good bacause I can't imagine a good Balrog.

Elemmírë · 11-30-2004, 01:35 PM

TD, technically speaking, weren't Melkor and Sauron originally good?

Wayfarer · 11-30-2004, 02:12 PM

Lenya · 12-05-2004, 09:22 AM

I do not believe Melkor was ever good, he just wasn't quite so evil at the beginning.

Lenya · 12-05-2004, 09:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wayfarer

Yes.

I am going to save this page, it is probably the first time in history that you agree with someone

I'm shocked!

Blackheart · 12-14-2004, 04:01 PM

Concerning the Idea that Bombadil and Goldberry are "guardian spirits", One wonders how such a situation could come about...

If only Eru can create rational independent beings.... Then he must have been adding to the story in some way...

It does however remind me of a similar problem with Ungolient. She certainly isn't a vala, and I've never been sure she was a maia.

She was said to have originated when Melkor first looked upon Arda and lusted after it (or some such).

That makes me wonder about the origin of such indeterminate creatures and strong emotions. It's almost as if Eru was granting life of it's own to an idea of sufficient strength. I wonder if Yavanna could have had a similar episode at some point in the past...

It almost reminds me of Athena springing from the head of Zeus...

Lenya · 12-15-2004, 04:07 PM

That's a very interesting theory, I like it. Though I'm not sure. Aule couldn't make Dwarves into real beings without Eru's help, and I'm sure that he had very strong emotions concerning them. Unless you mean that Eru supported them. ?

Blackheart · 12-15-2004, 04:24 PM

Err. Well you kind of have to look at it from two perspectives. In the music, the Ainur sang the theme that Eru proposed, and later Eru made it manifest. Certainly at least some of the Ainur elaborated on the theme (Melkor for an obvious example), and there was interaction between different parts of the theme...

One can only assume that Aule was singing something about dwarves in there... and being a smithy sort of guy, I suppose hammering them out in a workshop is probably how he envisioned it...

Yavanna certainly didn't bring the ents into being by building them from scratch. They were there sleeping, all along it seems.

So it would seem that in a couple of cases at least, the method of an origin of a.."species"... is related to whoever it was that wove it into the music....

It makes me wonder if Bombadil was in the music all along, or if he was one of the "surprises"... There is of course no mention of which Vala he would have held in reverence. He was the master of himself after all...

The same with Ungolient. Was she in fact Melkor's Lust for Arda made manifest? If so, it's a neat little side story that Melkor's own lust almost consumed him... Oh wait it did, just not in that way...

ItalianLegolas · 12-15-2004, 04:29 PM

that is interesting... the Istari are Maiar i believe

Blackheart · 12-15-2004, 04:35 PM

Yes... they were maia... But they were also ainur, which means that they were there in the begining also, during the first music...

Not so Tom Bombadil or Ungolient, unless you posit that they were of the Ainur (either Vala or Maia).

Which doesn't seem likely for lots of different reasons...

Manveru · 12-15-2004, 07:55 PM

maiar werent ainur. the maiar were lesser than the ainur. its the valar who were ainur

Elemmírë · 12-15-2004, 09:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Manveru

maiar werent ainur. the maiar were lesser than the ainur. its the valar who were ainur

From the Silm's index:

Quote:

Ainur- 'The Holy Ones' (singular Ainu); the first beings created by Ilúvatar, the 'order' of the Valar and Maiar, made before Eä.

The Maiar are Ainur.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blackheart

The same with Ungolient. Was she in fact Melkor's Lust for Arda made manifest? If so, it's a neat little side story that Melkor's own lust almost consumed him... Oh wait it did, just not in that way...

That's a really neat thought.

Um... nothing more to add until I read through this thread...

Blackheart · 12-16-2004, 12:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Elemmire

The Maiar are Ainur.

Yeah. Basically, if you were created pre-arda, you are an Ainu...

Which is one of the reasons I don't lean towards Ungolient being a fallen maia... The only reference to her origin we have is definately after the creation of Arda...

Elemmírë · 12-16-2004, 02:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blackheart

Yeah. Basically, if you were created pre-arda, you are an Ainu...

Which is one of the reasons I don't lean towards Ungolient being a fallen maia... The only reference to her origin we have is definately after the creation of Arda...

True, but simply because she is not mentioned does not mean she did not come into being before Arda...

Though I think I'm beginning to lean towards the idea of her as something of a symbol, and idea made manifest... I remembered the ideas we were discussing in the Evil in ME thread, especially that of true evil really not existing and being nothing more than an emptiness (severely paraphrased) when I looked at the line, "...to feed her emptiness."

If she's not a representation of Morgoth's lust, perhaps she could be one of the evil he created (since according to legend at least he corrupted her and then she spurned him and became her own mistress), something that was beyond his control and would in the end destroy him...

10-17-2004, 02:37 PM	#41
Lefty Scaevola AngAdan Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Boerne, Texas Posts: 856	I suspect there may be large numbers of Maiar who have expended much of the being in creation and have gone 'rustic' or 'native' in areas of Arda that they have worked on creating. They could easily pass as elves for a indefinite period of time. __________________ Gaius Mucius Scaevola Older, richer, and wiser than you "Mighty are the Ainur, and mightiest among them is Melkor, but that he may know, and all the Ainur, that I am Iluvatar, those things that ye have sung, I will show them forth, ... And thou, Melkor, shalt see that no theme may be played that hath not its uttermost source in me,"

10-18-2004, 09:46 PM	#45
Finrod Felagund King of Nargothrond Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Canada! eh? Posts: 2,002	Well I believe I mentioned this in another place...but it is appropriate in this thread. I do not believe that it is ever said who is the greatest of the maiar...however... Eonwe is called "the greatest in arms" of anyone in Arda... And Olorin is said to be the wisest of the maiar. Other than that we can say little... __________________ "THE EAGLES ARE COMING, THE EAGLES ARE COMING......AND A MOTH!!!!!"

11-30-2004, 01:12 PM	#47
Telcontar_Dunedain Warrior of the House of Hador Join Date: Aug 2004 Posts: 4,651	Why were the Balrog's created as Maiar? Were they originally good bacause I can't imagine a good Balrog. __________________ Then Huor spoke and said: "Yet if it stands but a little while, then out of your house shall come the hope of Elves and Men. This I say to you, lord, with the eyes of death: though we part here for ever, and I shall not look on your white walls again, from you and me a new star shall arise. Farewell!" The Silmarillion, Nirnaeth Arnoediad, Page 230

11-30-2004, 01:35 PM	#48
Elemmírë avocatus diaboli Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Himring Posts: 1,582	TD, technically speaking, weren't Melkor and Sauron originally good? __________________ ~ I have heard the languages of apocalypse and now I shall embrace the silence ~ Neil Gaiman

11-30-2004, 02:12 PM	#49
Wayfarer The Insufferable Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 3,333	Yes. __________________ Disgraced he may be, yet is not dethroned, and keeps the rags of lordship once he owned

10-18-2004, 04:08 PM	#43
Lenya Elentári Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: South Africa Posts: 727	I think there are deffinately still Maiar left in ME. It is said in Sil that there were so many Maiar that not even the Valar knew their numbers. I find it highly unlikely that none of them remain in ME. After all, they all have their own jobs to do, who knows what might go wrong if they all simply leave?

12-05-2004, 09:22 AM	#50
Lenya Elentári Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: South Africa Posts: 727	I do not believe Melkor was ever good, he just wasn't quite so evil at the beginning.

12-14-2004, 04:01 PM	#52
Blackheart Elf Lord Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Darkness Posts: 1,211	Concerning the Idea that Bombadil and Goldberry are "guardian spirits", One wonders how such a situation could come about... If only Eru can create rational independent beings.... Then he must have been adding to the story in some way... It does however remind me of a similar problem with Ungolient. She certainly isn't a vala, and I've never been sure she was a maia. She was said to have originated when Melkor first looked upon Arda and lusted after it (or some such). That makes me wonder about the origin of such indeterminate creatures and strong emotions. It's almost as if Eru was granting life of it's own to an idea of sufficient strength. I wonder if Yavanna could have had a similar episode at some point in the past... It almost reminds me of Athena springing from the head of Zeus... __________________ I have harnessed the shadows that stride from world to world to sow death and madness... Queer haow a cravin' gits a holt on ye -- As ye love the Almighty, young man, don't tell nobody, but I swar ter Gawd thet picter begun ta make me hungry fer victuals I couldn't raise nor buy -- here, set still, what's ailin' ye? ...

12-15-2004, 04:07 PM	#53
Lenya Elentári Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: South Africa Posts: 727	That's a very interesting theory, I like it. Though I'm not sure. Aule couldn't make Dwarves into real beings without Eru's help, and I'm sure that he had very strong emotions concerning them. Unless you mean that Eru supported them. ?

12-15-2004, 04:24 PM	#54
Blackheart Elf Lord Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Darkness Posts: 1,211	Err. Well you kind of have to look at it from two perspectives. In the music, the Ainur sang the theme that Eru proposed, and later Eru made it manifest. Certainly at least some of the Ainur elaborated on the theme (Melkor for an obvious example), and there was interaction between different parts of the theme... One can only assume that Aule was singing something about dwarves in there... and being a smithy sort of guy, I suppose hammering them out in a workshop is probably how he envisioned it... Yavanna certainly didn't bring the ents into being by building them from scratch. They were there sleeping, all along it seems. So it would seem that in a couple of cases at least, the method of an origin of a.."species"... is related to whoever it was that wove it into the music.... It makes me wonder if Bombadil was in the music all along, or if he was one of the "surprises"... There is of course no mention of which Vala he would have held in reverence. He was the master of himself after all... The same with Ungolient. Was she in fact Melkor's Lust for Arda made manifest? If so, it's a neat little side story that Melkor's own lust almost consumed him... Oh wait it did, just not in that way... __________________ I have harnessed the shadows that stride from world to world to sow death and madness... Queer haow a cravin' gits a holt on ye -- As ye love the Almighty, young man, don't tell nobody, but I swar ter Gawd thet picter begun ta make me hungry fer victuals I couldn't raise nor buy -- here, set still, what's ailin' ye? ... Last edited by Blackheart : 12-15-2004 at 04:30 PM.

12-15-2004, 04:29 PM	#55
ItalianLegolas Tolkien-aholic Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: somewhere in the solar system... more specifically NJ... Posts: 712	that is interesting... the Istari are Maiar i believe __________________ What was lost is now found.

12-15-2004, 04:35 PM	#56
Blackheart Elf Lord Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Darkness Posts: 1,211	Yes... they were maia... But they were also ainur, which means that they were there in the begining also, during the first music... Not so Tom Bombadil or Ungolient, unless you posit that they were of the Ainur (either Vala or Maia). Which doesn't seem likely for lots of different reasons... __________________ I have harnessed the shadows that stride from world to world to sow death and madness... Queer haow a cravin' gits a holt on ye -- As ye love the Almighty, young man, don't tell nobody, but I swar ter Gawd thet picter begun ta make me hungry fer victuals I couldn't raise nor buy -- here, set still, what's ailin' ye? ...

12-15-2004, 07:55 PM	#57
Manveru Elven Warrior Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Canada Posts: 256	maiar werent ainur. the maiar were lesser than the ainur. its the valar who were ainur __________________ Earendel arose where the shadow flows At Ocean's silent brim; Through the mouth of night as a ray of light Where the shores are sheer and dim He launched his bark like a silver spark From the last and lonely sand; Then on sunlit breath of day's fiery death He sailed from Westerland

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