The Hunt for the Ring

[Gordis]

I am here...


So, as Alcuin is around, let us continue our investigation.

On 28 September Khamul (D) and E find Crickhollow at night, but do not attack though [Khamûl] is aware that the Ring has been, or is still, there. Khamûl lurks near, and E is sent to bring G [the rider left by the Bridge] and the horses. Road between Bridge and Bree is thus left unwatched. [Early on 29 September Khamûl and the other two Riders] come back to Crickhollow and watch it as night passes. - RC page 164-5

What is interesting here: Khamul apparently could sense not only the Ring as such, but catch a lingering "smell" of the Ring that used to be there 2 days ago!
A question immediately arises: how did they get the horses that were left by the Stonebows bridge to Crickhollow? The answer can only be obtained from a draft published in HOME 7 "The treason of Isengard", p.13:

28th they 'located' him and went to get the help of G. On the night of the 29th DEG crossed the River by the Ferry.

WOW! The nazgul crossed the river by ferry! That was an act of supreme courage on the part of beings who " feared water, and were unwilling, except in dire need, to enter it or to cross streams unless dryshod by a bridge. -UT"

Note that according to the later version in RC, it were our bold G (the bridge-guardian), and H (Khamul's buddy from Dol-Guldur) who did the deed. Hundred points to GH!
Khamul remained in Crickhollow, watching the house, and did it badly, as he missed Fatty's flight. 50 points from Khamul.

Now questions.
1. Why didn't Khamul and E attack immediately on the night of Sept.28? Did they need an additional nazgul so badly? Or did they need horses to escape immediately after an attack on the house?
2. Why couldn't E and G and the 3 horses force their way through the Gate of Buckland on their way to Khamul? Was secrecy really that important to justify all this trouble with the ferry?
3. Why in Middle-Earth did they wait all night long by the door of an empty house?

[Alcuin]

Originally Posted by Gordis

...from a draft published in HOME 7 "The treason of Isengard", p.13:

WOW! The nazgul crossed the river by ferry! That was an act of supreme courage on the part of beings who " feared water, and were unwilling, except in dire need, to enter it or to cross streams unless dryshod by a bridge. -UT"

Someone must have taken the Nazgûl across the Brandywine by ferry. I don’t believe they could have managed it themselves: sight is an important component in operating a boat or raft, and they were already in unfamiliar territory. They might have convinced a local hobbit to do it for them using bribery or terror or both (though I wonder if they killed the poor soul and dumped him in the drink afterwards?), but there is another possibility: Lotho Sackville-Baggins no doubt figured prominently in Saruman’s maps and documents that the Witch-king “liberated” from Saruman’s half-orc Southron spy whom the Witch-king “persuaded” to turn coat. Do we have any evidence that Lotho might have helped them? And even if he did not, is it reasonable to assume that they did not first visit the Sackville-Bagginses in South Farthing? They’d have quickly discovered there was no Ring there, but they’d have also discovered how to reach the “real” Baggins diggings they wanted further north.

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by Alcuin

Someone must have taken the Nazgûl across the Brandywine by ferry. I don’t believe they could have managed it themselves: sight is an important component in operating a boat or raft, and they were already in unfamiliar territory.

You forget it had happened at night. At night they were not blind: "They themselves do not see the world of light as we do, but our shapes cast shadows in their minds, which only the noon sun destroys; and in the dark they perceive many signs and forms that are hidden from us: then they are most to be feared." -Aragorn, LOTR
So, I don't believe they needed a living man or hobbit to operate the ferry. Moreover, the presence of an unfamiliar midget on the raft might have unnerved the horses.

Originally Posted by Alcuin

They might have convinced a local hobbit to do it for them using bribery or terror or both (though I wonder if they killed the poor soul and dumped him in the drink afterwards?)

Theoretically could have got a hobbit on the West (Shire) bank, from one of the farms near the ferry, but I don't think it was easy. Maggot had helped Frodo and K on Sept. 25, so I bet by the night of 28-29 all the neighbors were barricaded in their houses from early nightfall till full daylight. The nazgul didn't have enough time to go in search of Lotho or other "friendly" hobbits further West from the river. Add to that that most Shire hobbits were unfamiliar with boats and feared crossing the river almost as much as the nazgul themselves did. Would someone like Sam be of much help?

No I think it were G and E who operated the raft. E by the way had recent boating experience: Khamul and he and 9 horses were ferried from Dol Guldur across the Anduin to meet the other Seven in northern Rohan back in the summer.

Originally Posted by Alcuin

Lotho Sackville-Baggins no doubt figured prominently in Saruman’s maps and documents that the Witch-king “liberated” from Saruman’s half-orc Southron spy whom the Witch-king “persuaded” to turn coat. Do we have any evidence that Lotho might have helped them? And even if he did not, is it reasonable to assume that they did not first visit the Sackville-Bagginses in South Farthing? They’d have quickly discovered there was no Ring there, but they’d have also discovered how to reach the “real” Baggins diggings they wanted further north.

I think it is reasonable to assume that Khamul and K did visit Lotho first thing after crossing at Sarn Ford. Probably they got exact directions to Bag End.

[Alcuin]

Names and proposed nicknames to replace letters.

These letters are cumbersome.

Just to make it easier on my eyeballs and my aging mind, I’d like to propose some working names for these characters to help me keep up with who’s who. If anyone doesn’t like them or prefers some other name, please speak up! It’s just very confusing and frustrating to talk about B & E & G & especially I, which is easily confused with the pronoun.

Here’s Gordis’ list from the first post, which uses Tolkien’s designations in the manuscripts.

Originally Posted by Gordis

A is the Witch-King, Black Captain. Directed the operation from Andrath, visited the Barrows, then rode to Weathertop, fought with Gandalf, attacked Frodo, then patrolled the road to the Ford.

BC are two nazgul, who remain with the Captain at Andrath to guard the Breeland from the south and from the East. From Weathertop were sent to follow Gandalf north-east. Prepared the ambush at the Ford. BC always stick together. Likely they are the strongest of the Eight.

D is Khamul, the Shadow of the East, Lieutenant of Dol Guldur and Second to the chief. "He was the most ready of all the Nazgûl after the Black Captain himself, to perceive the presence of the Ring, but also the one whose power was most confused and diminished by daylight.-UT" Directed the search of the Shire, the attack on Crickhollow, on Oct. 3-6 guarded Weathertop with the Witch-King, later guarded the Bridge of Mitheithel.

E is Khamul's companion and messenger from Dol Guldur. At the beginning of the Hunt he was never far from Khamul (leading the blind man around in day-time, most likely). Later became separated from Khamul and was in the group that followed Gandalf.

F - This one had to ride a lot: twice made a round-trip to Weathertop. He is the third nazgul in Bree, who was sent to the WK with the news, but got waylaid by the Dunedain. Uncharacteristically, F was separated from his pair G from the start and also by the end. F often operated alone.

G - Was separated from F and added to DE, guarded the horses and the Bridge over Baranduin, then was riding with HI, also traveled a lot.

HI - inseparable pair, the two nazgul in Bree. Also had to ride a lot.

H and I are the two I (Alcuin) and others referred to as “Frick and Frack.” Since both those words begin with the same letter, let’s dispense with them.

Here’s my proposed list:

1. A is the Witch-King. He doesn’t want another nickname.
2. B gets the nickname Buddy because ’s the Witch-king’s buddy since they stay together a lot.
3. C gets the nickname Chum. He’s Buddy’s chum because they often go together on assignments.
4. D is Khamûl. He doesn’t want another name, either.
5. E gets the nickname Ed. He’s Joe Camel’s brother and he hangs out with Khamûl.
6. F gets the nickname Fred because “Frick” and “Frack” were already misused.
7. G gets the nickname George because it starts with “G” and I can’t come up with anything inventive right this moment.
8. H gets the nickname Homer (D’oh! He was unfortunately referred to earlier as “Frick”. D’oh!)
9. I gets the nickname Ida because she hangs out with Homer and Marge starts with an “M” and “Frack” doesn’t.

Again, nickname changes welcome. I’d just like to dispense with the confusing and frustrating letters, if no one objects too much to a little silliness for clarity’s sake.

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by Alcuin

Here’s my proposed list:

1. A is the Witch-King. He doesn’t want another nickname.
2. B gets the nickname Buddy because ’s the Witch-king’s buddy since they stay together a lot.
3. C gets the nickname Chum. He’s Buddy’s chum because they often go together on assignments.
4. D is Khamûl. He doesn’t want another name, either.
5. E gets the nickname Ed. He’s Joe Camel’s brother and he hangs out with Khamûl.
6. F gets the nickname Fred because “Frick” and “Frack” were already misused.
7. G gets the nickname George because it starts with “G” and I can’t come up with anything inventive right this moment.
8. H gets the nickname Homer (D’oh! He was unfortunately referred to earlier as “Frick”. D’oh!)
9. I gets the nickname Ida because she hangs out with Homer and Marge starts with an “M” and “Frack” doesn’t.

Again, nickname changes welcome. I’d just like to dispense with the confusing and frustrating letters, if no one objects too much to a little silliness for clarity’s sake.

Well,a little silliness won't hurt. I liked Fred+ George, quite fitting Are you a Harry Potter fan?
Perhaps to commemorate Weasley family more fully, we can call BC Bill and Charles?

I didn't understand the reasoning behind Ida, though. Isn't it a girl's name? Maybe call him Ilion, to match Homer?

[Earniel]

Or maybe we should name G Gordis?

[Gordis]

Heh
But I don't have an F-buddy!

[Alcuin]

Ok, ladies, let’s behave: there are youngsters present.

No, I’m not a Harry Potter fan. I have no idea who Fred + George are, but if you like the names, I’m delighted.

I don’t know who Bill and Charles are, either. Bill and Charles: how about Buck and Chuck?

“Homer” came from “Homer Simpson” because I’d referred to H & I as “Frick and Frack” and facetiously accused them of incompetence. Homer Simpson’s wife is Marge, but “Marge” begins with the wrong letter, so I settled for “Ida”. Homer and Idaho? (as in, “I – D’oh!”) After all, if Indiana Jones can hunt for ancient treasures for the US government, surely “Idaho Smith” can hunt for the Ring for Sauron, right?

I am neutral on this as long as the monikers are short and easy to remember. In the meantime, I am arranging notes on this end.

[Gordis]

Oh, call them whatever you like, as long as the first letter matches.

But I would love people (if anyone is interested in it) try to answer my questions regarding the Crickhollow episode:

Now questions.
1. Why didn't Khamul and E attack immediately on the night of Sept.28? Did they need an additional nazgul so badly? Or did they need horses to escape immediately after an attack on the house?
2. Why couldn't E and G and the 3 horses force their way through the Gate of Buckland on their way to Khamul? Was secrecy really that important to justify all this trouble with the ferry?
3. Why in Middle-Earth did they wait all night long by the door of an empty house?

[CAB]

Originally Posted by Gordis

1.Why didn't Khamul and E attack immediately on the night of Sept.28? Did they need an additional nazgul so badly? Or did they need horses to escape immediately after an attack on the house?

I would say that, since they did not know what or who was in the house, they needed all the help they could get. The supposed inhabitant of this house had just been with some Noldorian Elves, was a known friend of the recently escaped Gandalf, and lived in a land actively guarded by Rangers. Khamul did not know what waited for him behind the door.

Of course, their horses were enormously important to the Nazgul. They were combination seeing eye dogs/transportation without which this mission would have been unthinkable. In this case, whether the Nazgul were to chase, be chased, or simply move on to the next stage, their horses were vital.

Another way to look at it is: Was it of greater importance to be more certain of retrieving the Ring, or was it more important to be a couple of hours quicker in retrieving it?

Originally Posted by Gordis

2.Why couldn't E and G and the 3 horses force their way through the Gate of Buckland on their way to Khamul? Was secrecy really that important to justify all this trouble with the ferry?

Yes, I think secrecy was that important. They were deep in unfamiliar enemy territory. What would the Nazgul have done, I wonder, if the ringbearer had holed up in a strong place? Laid siege to it? Look at what happened when the alarm was raised. Did the Nazgul take prisoners/ask questions/try to be very sure of which way the Ring went? No, they did what anyone in the same situation would do...run.

Originally Posted by Gordis

3.Why in Middle-Earth did they wait all night long by the door of an empty house?

Unless there is something in the notes you have been quoting which says otherwise, I don't think they were outside the house all that long. After the 3 Nazgul approached the house, Fatty ran “more than a mile” and babbled a little while before the alarm was raised. Since we can probably safely assume he didn't merely jog to his neighbors' house, I would think 20 minutes or less probably passed between the Nazgul taking their positions outside the house and breaking down the door. That isn't too long and can probably be explained by need for caution and/or even hesitation in entering a potentially very important and dangerous situation.

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by Thurin

Another way to look at it is: Was it of greater importance to be more certain of retrieving the Ring, or was it more important to be a couple of hours quicker in retrieving it?

Very good reasoning there, Thurin! I can't agree more.
Thank you for your answers.

So, shall we move on?

[CAB]

Thank you.

Sounds good to me. I look forward to seeing your take on the next part of the story.

[Gordis]

So, let us turn to the adventures of the other nazgul company (ABCF), led by Angmar, the Lord of the Nazgul.

On the night of September 22, after having forced the passage over Sarn Ford, the WK sent Khamul and his group across the Ford into the Shire, while he himself and BCF "took care" of the remaining rangers. The latter, cut off on the south-eastern Bank of Baranduin, took flight north along the Greenway, likely attempting to reach Bree. (Did they know that Aragorn was there, I wonder?). The nazgul on their swift horses soon overtook the Dunedain and either cut them down, or drove them into the wilderness east of the road. Anyway, not a single one reached Bree, it seems.
Question: how many rangers were there at Sarn Ford to begin with you think? And how many survived?

Then, Angmar likely left Fred to guard Sarn Ford, and together with Buddy and Chum he made a camp at Andrath (where the road passes between the Barrowdowns and the South Downs).

What does a nazgul camp look like, I wonder? I bet they didn't light a campfire... But did they have a tent with them, for instance? Did they sleep at all?

Was the place of the camp chosen wisely? Or was it too far both from Bree and the Shire?

[Alcuin]

Wait. I thought all the Nazgûl were at Sarn Ford: that's why the Dúnedain there were overcome, was it not?

[Gordis]

All the Nine were there together when they overcame the guard of rangers. But some rangers took flight up the Greenway and only 4 of the nazgul (ABCF) pursued them. The other 5 nazgul under Khamul crossed the Ford into The Shire.

What is curious, is that seemingly the rangers were positioned on the South-Eastern bank of Baranduin, with the Ford at their backs. Why not wait on the further bank, the Shire bank, where they could shoot at those who try to cross?

[CAB]

Originally Posted by Gordis

What does a nazgul camp look like, I wonder? I bet they didn't light a campfire... But did they have a tent with them, for instance

My guess would be that there were no tents in this camp. You said earlier that Sauron ordered the Nazgul to use haste in hunting the Ring. Anything beyond the bare necessities would be a hindrance to speed. Perhaps on other journeys, when speed was less of an issue, Angmar set up camps and tents similar to those used by other great Numenorean lords during their travels in the Second Age, though surely with a darker feel.

Originally Posted by Gordis

Did they sleep at all?

I personally don't think that the Nazgul slept. It doesn't seem to fit with their tortured existences. Surely they weren't active 24/7, though.

Originally Posted by Gordis

Was the place of the camp chosen wisely? Or was it too far both from Bree and the Shire?

Maybe he was keeping his distance to keep his “aura” from making his presence known?

Really, from what I can see on your map, it looks like he chose a strategically strong position. Looking at the lines you drew indicating the Nazguls' movements on your Bree-Weathertop map, doesn't it seem like a nice, centralized location – right in the middle of all the action?

Originally Posted by Gordis

What is curious, is that seemingly the rangers were positioned on the South-Eastern bank of Baranduin, with the Ford at their backs. Why not wait on the further bank, the Shire bank, where they could shoot at those who try to cross?

Maybe the Dunedain were not allowed to enter the Shire. As you no doubt remember, Aragorn later made this a law for all Men.

What I find interesting about this is the thought that, as Gandalf pointed out, though the Nazgul couldn't be killed with arrows, their steeds could. The loss of their horses would have been truly devastating for the Nazgul at this point, but apparently the rangers were unable to unhorse even one of the Nine. The horses should have undoubtedly and without question been their targets.

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by Thurin

My guess would be that there were no tents in this camp. You said earlier that Sauron ordered the Nazgul to use haste in hunting the Ring. Anything beyond the bare necessities would be a hindrance to speed. Perhaps on other journeys, when speed was less of an issue, Angmar set up camps and tents similar to those used by other great Numenorean lords during their travels in the Second Age, though surely with a darker feel.

Hmm, I am not so sure. The nazgul were on the move since summer. They had to prepare for a long journey, far from any friendly (and even unfriendly) civilization. The first part of their journey up and down the Anduin was not made in haste, far from it. And they still carried all the things they received from Mordor on the 17th of July. I think they had spare clothes (the WK surely had a spare cloak, as he had replaced the one lost at Weathertop), boots, spare harness, spare horseshoes and tools, likely some medicine, at least for the horses. They also carried gold (to bribe people) - maybe a lot of it. I would expect them to have at least one tent also - to use during rains etc.
Otherwise what would constitute "a camp" which had to be "made"? I don't think some saddlebags hidden in the bushes would count as camp.

Originally Posted by Thurin

I personally don't think that the Nazgul slept. It doesn't seem to fit with their tortured existences. Surely they weren't active 24/7, though.

You are right. We are told that "[the Witch-King's] horse at least would need some food and rest, though he needed none" -RC p.262. I think it relates to all of the Nine. So when two nazgul were guarding the Greenway, they were likely taking turns: one was riding around and the other was guarding the camp with his horse grazing/sleeping nearby.

Originally Posted by Thurin

Maybe he was keeping his distance to keep his “aura” from making his presence known?

Again, you are right, IMHO. The lesser nazgul undoubtedly could "tone down" their terror and speak with ordinary men or hobbits without spooking the latter too much. But the terror of the WK was far greater, so, maybe even toned down to a minimum, it was still too great to bear. Grima and Saruman's spy in UT nearly died from terror when they were questioned by Angmar in person.
That may be one of the reasons why he himself didn't go into the Shire or to Bree, but remained behind. The other reason was the necessity to guard the approaches to the area from the East (Rivendell) and especially from the South. Remember what Saruman told the WK in Isengard?

And if I knew where this thing was hid, I should not be here, but long gone before you take it. There is one only whom I guess to have this knowledge: Mithrandir, enemy of Sauron. And since it is but two days since he departed from Isengard, seek him nearby."- UT

Now after having questioned Saruman's spy, the WK was aware that Saruman was a traitor to Mordor. Saruman himself admitted his interest in the Ring. Thus the WK could easily expect the arrival not only of Gandalf, but of Saruman as well. Perhaps the two Istari were in league and were riding hard from Isengard to get the Ring? Anyway, even one maia was a great threat.

Originally Posted by Thurin

Really, from what I can see on your map, it looks like he chose a strategically strong position. Looking at the lines you drew indicating the Nazguls' movements on your Bree-Weathertop map, doesn't it seem like a nice, centralized location – right in the middle of all the action?

Yes, it would seem so. Unfortunately, the lesser nazgul, when twarthed and upset, had a tendency to abandon their posts and ride to complain to the Captain. We'll see this later.

Maybe the Dunedain were not allowed to enter the Shire. As you no doubt remember, Aragorn later made this a law for all Men.

That was rather unpractical in times of war: they paid for it.

Originally Posted by Thurin

What I find interesting about this is the thought that, as Gandalf pointed out, though the Nazgul couldn't be killed with arrows, their steeds could. The loss of their horses would have been truly devastating for the Nazgul at this point, but apparently the rangers were unable to unhorse even one of the Nine. The horses should have undoubtedly and without question been their targets.

The rangers could have killed a few horses if they could barrage the nazgul with arrows from the other bank, while the Black riders were carefully making their way across the river. As it was, the rangers were on the near bank, at the entrance to the Ford. The Nine came at night, so it was necessarily a hand-to hand fighting of 9 horsemen against unknown number of foot soldiers. Even without accounting for nazgul terror it was a lost cause on the ranger's part anyway.

[CAB]

Originally Posted by Gordis

Hmm, I am not so sure. The nazgul were on the move since summer. They had to prepare for a long journey, far from any friendly (and even unfriendly) civilization. The first part of their journey up and down the Anduin was not made in haste, far from it. And they still carried all the things they received from Mordor on the 17th of July. I think they had spare clothes (the WK surely had a spare cloak, as he had replaced the one lost at Weathertop), boots, spare harness, spare horseshoes and tools, likely some medicine, at least for the horses. They also carried gold (to bribe people) - maybe a lot of it. I would expect them to have at least one tent also - to use during rains etc.
Otherwise what would constitute "a camp" which had to be "made"? I don't think some saddlebags hidden in the bushes would count as camp.

You could be right. However, I could argue that carrying all these more essential things left that much less room for less essential things such as tents. There were no spare horses to carry extra baggage, as I recall. The Nazgul didn't need to eat or sleep away from the elements or bugs and that is what tents are for. Also, it may have just been simpler for Tolkien to write that they “set up camp” rather than saying that “the Witch King picked a spot to stay but didn't have the need or equipment to set up a traditional camp”. Just my opinion – I could certainly be mistaken.

Originally Posted by Gordis

Now after having questioned Saruman's spy, the WK was aware that Saruman was a traitor to Mordor. Saruman himself admitted his interest in the Ring. Thus the WK could easily expect the arrival not only of Gandalf, but of Saruman as well. Perhaps the two Istari were in league and were riding hard from Isengard to get the Ring? Anyway, even one maia was a great threat.

I agree that the Witch King had to be concerned about the involvement of Gandalf and/or Saruman. This brings up a point that I have attempted to make before (I suppose this would be a good time to mention that I used to post here as CAB....different computer, email address, screen name – same person), the Nazgul really had a very difficult task in attempting to capture the Ring. They are portrayed as the fearsome, unstoppable invaders, but on closer examination are more like handicapped, outnumbered, outgunned, under-informed underdogs far from home or aid. Though they failed, I think they did as well as could be expected, given the situation in which they were placed.

Originally Posted by Gordis

The rangers could have killed a few horses if they could barrage the nazgul with arrows from the other bank, while the Black riders were carefully making their way across the river. As it was, the rangers were on the near bank, at the entrance to the Ford. The Nine came at night, so it was necessarily a hand-to hand fighting of 9 horsemen against unknown number of foot soldiers. Even without accounting for nazgul terror it was a lost cause on the ranger's part anyway.

I have never fully understood why killing horses ridden by warriors is so difficult, but it clearly is or else cavalry would not have been so effective throughout the ages.

I would like to give you a guess concerning your question about the number of rangers present at Sarn Ford, but I honestly have no idea.

[Gordis]

CAB!!!
I am so happy to see you again!
Discussing Tolkien with you is always a great pleasure.


And you are right about the"handicapped, outnumbered, outgunned, under-informed underdogs far from home or aid."

[CAB]

It is good to hear from you, too.

I had set up this screen name just to participate some in the riddle thread, but saw that you and Alcuin were back and couldn't resist.

I hope we keep this thread active. It is too interesting and you have put too much work into it to let it sit unfinished. Many thanks to Alcuin for bumping it.