Emblem of Minas Morgul

[CAB]

Originally Posted by Coffeehouse

Seen from a task-completion point of view its obvious then that the Nazgûl were a very poor choice.

I disagree. The task had two parts: Obtain the Ring and return it to Sauron. Sauron may have had other servants better suited to performing the first part, but only the Nazgul could complete the second. Therefore, they were his only possible choice.

Originally Posted by Coffeehouse

The One Ring was the be all and end all to Sauron.

I don't agree with this either. Sauron was stronger than his opponents even without the Ring. No one in Middle Earth could have successfully wielded the Ring against him. He didn't spend a great deal of resources trying to recover it. But, I will agree that he would have willingly traded some Nazgul to regain the Ring.

Originally Posted by Coffeehouse

Which leaves one conclusion: Sauron was overstimated by the Wise, he did not have the awesome power they hyped him up to have.

I think the conclusion is simply that he didn't have servants well suited to recovering the One Ring in enemy territory, nothing more.

[Coffeehouse]

Originally Posted by CAB

I disagree. The task had two parts: Obtain the Ring and return it to Sauron. Sauron may have had other servants better suited to performing the first part, but only the Nazgul could complete the second. Therefore, they were his only possible choice.

As you state it's a two-part task. Obtaining the Ring, Returning the Ring.

A sensible execution, of the objective, Sauron once again wielding the Ring, would then be to make sure that the Ring was in fact obtained. If it's not obtained it does not matter that the second task can only be performed by the Nazgûl.
If Sauron understood the nature of the hunt which the Nazgûl would engage in, which basically depended on spreading fear, he would have also seen that it would be a risk not to send back-up. But he didn't.
It's then astonishing that Sauron demanded a stealthy approach. It was not going to happen. He did not then comprehend the obvious inhibition the Nazgûl would have obtaining the Ring, excluding whether or not they would actually return it.

Originally Posted by CAB

I don't agree with this either. Sauron was stronger than his opponents even without the Ring. No one in Middle Earth could have successfully wielded the Ring against him. He didn't spend a great deal of resources trying to recover it.

I did not speak of the possible destruction of Sauron, but the incalculable power he would have gained by getting the Ring. In that respect getting the Ring would be at the top of his list, no questions asked.

Originally Posted by CAB

I think the conclusion is simply that he didn't have servants well suited to recovering the One Ring in enemy territory, nothing more.

That's the argument I have been pushing: The Nazgûl weren't fit for the task under the circumstances.
Yet that does not take away the fact that Sauron was simply unable to compell the Nazgûl to die for him. In other words, he did not have the sort of power that he was made out to have.

[Alcuin]

Perhaps. Perhaps he could only command a Ringwraith to immolate itself while in possession of the One Ring; but Tolkien said that (UT, “Hunt for the Ring”, third paragraph)

“the Ringwraiths … had no will but [Sauron’s] own, being each utterly subservient to the ring that had enslaved him, which Sauron held.”

In the next paragraph, Tolkien asserts that Sauron’s reasoning was that

…few could withstand even one of these fell creatures, and … none … when gathered together under their … captain, the Lord of Morgul. Yet this weakness they had …: so great was the terror that went with them (even invisible and unclad) that … their mission [might] be guessed by the Wise.

It is well to remember that Gandalf told Frodo that Aragorn was “the greatest traveler and huntsman of this age of the world” when he first told him about the Ring in Hobbiton. I take that to mean that, since Gandalf had arrived in Lindon about III 1000, he had never seen a more capable tracker, ranger, leader, or more widely-traveled man than Aragorn. He was a Númenórean par excellence, and the context is that he was on par with Isildur’s sons: Elrond thought he was most like Isildur’s eldest son, Elendur, who of all Elendil’s children and grandchildren was most like his grandfather. (UT, “Disaster as Gladden Field”, footnote 26 and the accompanying text in the essay) Aragorn was unusual even from a line of the most outstanding men in Middle-earth – even from the most outstanding line of men in Númenor. He told his wife before he died that he was the “last of the Númenóreans, and the latest King of the Elder Days”. (RotK, “Aragorn and Arwen”) Frodo and Gandalf agreed when Frodo awoke in Rivendell that all would have been lost without Aragorn, and even then without the timely assistance of Glorfindel, the Ringwraiths would have seized the Ring.

It is not that the Ringwraiths were incapable or incompetent or indecisive or in defiance. They were simply “unlucky”, as men call it: they just missed Frodo at Bag End, Gildor and his companions showed up in the Woody End, they just missed Frodo at Bamfurlong (Maggot’s Farm), they were late in Crickhollow, and then they completely lost track of the hobbits when they entered the Old Forest. They knew nothing about Bombadil (who had likely been creating problems for the Witch-king many centuries earlier), who spoilt the trap of the barrow-wight, a feat the Nazgûl erroneously attributed to Frodo, and which caused to them proceed more cautiously. (There, Coffeehouse, you can easily assert that they were insufficiently suicidal.) They could not regain track of the hobbits until Bree, and there Frodo and his three companions met Strider the Ranger.

And Strider had trouble with them, lots of trouble. Frodo barely made it alive to Rivendell: had he been a Man and not a Hobbit, Gandalf, Aragorn, Glorfindel and Elrond all seemed in agreement that he would have succumbed to the Morgul-wound: even Gandalf was (pleasantly!) surprised. Without Glorfindel foiling their plans to block the Last Bridge, putting Frodo on his swifter (and more intelligent) horse, and finally chasing six (?) of the Nazgûl into the raging Bruinen, they would still have overcome their prey.

I don’t think we can fault the Nazgûl in their ruthless, single-minded pursuit. At any number of places they should have captured the Ring, as Sauron anticipated: they were thwarted, or mistimed, occasionally daunted, but mostly just what we would call “unlucky”. They couldn’t very well have stormed the Shire: that would have meant their quarry escaped. A few of them tried storming the Prancing Pony; they assaulted Weathertop and found the defenders unexpectedly resistant: and in this case, we must remember the backstory (as revealed in Tolkien’s notes published in Reader’s Companion) that they thought that Frodo had overthrown the barrow-wight, and he and his companions were wielding dreaded barrow-blades forged by the Northern Dúnedain. Then Aragorn made them chase him and his charges through the trackless wilderness, and the critters couldn’t see well. Finally, they had Frodo trapped at the ford, where he finally collapsed because of his wound and could go no further: there they would indeed have captured him, except that Elrond (and Gandalf) unleashed a flood, an event they could not be expected to anticipate and for which they were completely unprepared.

All in all, I give the Nazgûl a thoroughly terrifying A; but give I Aragorn an outstanding A+, which a many-rayed silver star to boot.

[Coffeehouse]

Originally Posted by Alcuin

Perhaps. Perhaps he could only command a Ringwraith to immolate itself while in possession of the One Ring; but Tolkien said that (UT, “Hunt for the Ring”, third paragraph)


In the next paragraph, Tolkien asserts that Sauron’s reasoning was that


It is well to remember that Gandalf told Frodo that Aragorn was “the greatest traveler and huntsman of this age of the world” when he first told him about the Ring in Hobbiton. I take that to mean that, since Gandalf had arrived in Lindon about III 1000, he had never seen a more capable tracker, ranger, leader, or more widely-traveled man than Aragorn. He was a Númenórean par excellence, and the context is that he was on par with Isildur’s sons: Elrond thought he was most like Isildur’s eldest son, Elendur, who of all Elendil’s children and grandchildren was most like his grandfather. (UT, “Disaster as Gladden Field”, footnote 26 and the accompanying text in the essay) Aragorn was unusual even from a line of the most outstanding men in Middle-earth – even from the most outstanding line of men in Númenor. He told his wife before he died that he was the “last of the Númenóreans, and the latest King of the Elder Days”. (RotK, “Aragorn and Arwen”) Frodo and Gandalf agreed when Frodo awoke in Rivendell that all would have been lost without Aragorn, and even then without the timely assistance of Glorfindel, the Ringwraiths would have seized the Ring.

It is not that the Ringwraiths were incapable or incompetent or indecisive or in defiance. They were simply “unlucky”, as men call it: they just missed Frodo at Bag End, Gildor and his companions showed up in the Woody End, they just missed Frodo at Bamfurlong (Maggot’s Farm), they were late in Crickhollow, and then they completely lost track of the hobbits when they entered the Old Forest. They knew nothing about Bombadil (who had likely been creating problems for the Witch-king many centuries earlier), who spoilt the trap of the barrow-wight, a feat the Nazgûl erroneously attributed to Frodo, and which caused to them proceed more cautiously. (There, Coffeehouse, you can easily assert that they were insufficiently suicidal.) They could not regain track of the hobbits until Bree, and there Frodo and his three companions met Strider the Ranger.

And Strider had trouble with them, lots of trouble. Frodo barely made it alive to Rivendell: had he been a Man and not a Hobbit, Gandalf, Aragorn, Glorfindel and Elrond all seemed in agreement that he would have succumbed to the Morgul-wound: even Gandalf was (pleasantly!) surprised. Without Glorfindel foiling their plans to block the Last Bridge, putting Frodo on his swifter (and more intelligent) horse, and finally chasing six (?) of the Nazgûl into the raging Bruinen, they would still have overcome their prey.

I don’t think we can fault the Nazgûl in their ruthless, single-minded pursuit. At any number of places they should have captured the Ring, as Sauron anticipated: they were thwarted, or mistimed, occasionally daunted, but mostly just what we would call “unlucky”. They couldn’t very well have stormed the Shire: that would have meant their quarry escaped. A few of them tried storming the Prancing Pony; they assaulted Weathertop and found the defenders unexpectedly resistant: and in this case, we must remember the backstory (as revealed in Tolkien’s notes published in Reader’s Companion) that they thought that Frodo had overthrown the barrow-wight, and he and his companions were wielding dreaded barrow-blades forged by the Northern Dúnedain. Then Aragorn made them chase him and his charges through the trackless wilderness, and the critters couldn’t see well. Finally, they had Frodo trapped at the ford, where he finally collapsed because of his wound and could go no further: there they would indeed have captured him, except that Elrond (and Gandalf) unleashed a flood, an event they could not be expected to anticipate and for which they were completely unprepared.

All in all, I give the Nazgûl a thoroughly terrifying A; but give I Aragorn an outstanding A+, which a many-rayed silver star to boot.

It's a convincing defence Alcuin, I'll give you that Yet explaining away all their mishappenings and unfortunate mistimings to bad luck seems a stretch. It would be quite the impressive string of luck I must say

But I'll iriterate what I argued in the thread "Nâzgul in the Prancing Pony?", http://www.entmoot.com/showthread.php?t=14908&page=2,

"

Originally Posted by Coffeehouse

After the Nazgûl crossed the Sarn they had arguably two defining moments where they failed, and it wasn't just any Nazgûl that failed. It was Khamûl, followed by the Witch-king himself.
1. Khamûl, having the fortune to be told by Gaffer Gamgee of Frodo's relative whereabouts actually comes across the three hobbits. What follows is a question mark to me. Yes Gildor and the High Elves pass near by, but before this happens the Lieutenant couldn't possibly have missed the hobbits. Foregoing that opportunity of taking the Ring is an example of some serious underperformance. Incompetence at a time when a cool head and swift action could have made the difference. But Khamûl demonstrated that he wasn't up to the task.
2. The Witch-king, accompanied by Khamûl and three other Nazgûl, though only attacking Frodo with two of them, manages to miss Frodo's heart in a 3 versus 1 combat. This is obviously before Aragorn intervenes. The Witch-king is in these defining seconds in front of 'the Baggins', with the One Ring on his finger, lit up in front of him like a Christmas Tree. The Witch-king has dealt deathblows to his enemies for hundreds and thousands of years, a length of time that any warrior that ever existed in our own world would drool at, and manages to not strike Frodo with the expect pin-point precision into 'the Baggins' heart. I don't expect the Witch-king to hit right above the heart, or right below it. I expect him to hit it square on! Not a millimeter shy of the target!

"

Now, I want to add since the issue of the 'dreaded barrow-blades' was brought up. Obviously that is a lethal weapon, and accordingly the Witch-King and his Nazgûl companions are actually afraid of it. Yet if we think about it the blade is just a blade. Whether it actually hits the Witch-King or not would be the difference thus, a lethal blow wherever it hit the Witch-king. Yet great warriors find themselves in man-to-man combat all the time and a truly skilled warrior would effectively avoid being hit. It should in other words take a great deal to strike anywhere near the Witch-King. Attributing it then to just bad luck for the Witch-King that Frodo seemed to carry a lethal blade is not good enough. For a sword-wielding expert such as the Witch-King it should therefore not matter what blade Frodo was carrying. All in all there should be only one outcome: and that is that the Witch-King strikes Frodo without being even remotely close to danger. That the Witch-King falls on bad luck because that little brat Frodo utters some Elvish words and wields a blade that could prove lethal is not believable. It's not bad luck, it's incompetence and a lack of focus when it matters the most!

[Alcuin]

My answer to that is to recount Gandalf’s explanation of how he became involved with Thorin and his expedition to Erebor, and how Gandalf came to involve Bilbo, almost on a whim, as it were. In Unfinished Takes, “Hunt for the Ring�, the very end of the first telling, Gandalf says,

It might all have gone very differently indeed. … We might now only hope to return from the victory here to ruin and ash. But that has been averted – because I met Thorin Oakenshield one evening on the edge of spring not far from Bree. A chance-meeting, as we say in Middle-earth.

I am not sure it was chance, at least in the context of the Tale.

In the earlier version of the telling, “typescript B�, Gandalf recalls arguing with the Dwarves about whether or not they should take Bilbo.

…suddenly I felt that I was indeed in hot earnest. This queer notion of mine was not a joke, it was right. It was desperately important that it should be carried out.

“Listen to me, Durin’s Folk!� I cried. “If you persuade this Hobbit to join you, you will succeed. If you do not, you will fail...�

Luck and chance indeed.

-|-

(Added later)

My apologies, Coffeehouse. I was so stuck on “luckâ€� and Gandalf the White’s remark on “chanceâ€�, hoping that everyone would notice a parallel to the Ringwraiths’ “bad luckâ€� in pursuing Frodo and his companions (cf. UT, “Hunt for the Ringâ€�: “In his heart Saruman recognized the great power and the strange ‘good fortune’ that went with Gandalf.â€� And Gandalf’s words to Pippin after he looked into the palantÃ*r: “You have been saved .... mainly by good fortune, as it is called. You cannot count on it a second time.â€�) that I did not properly respond to your position.

You are correct, I think, that the Nazgûl were afraid – really afraid – of the barrow-blades. We now know they believed – wrongly, but it was helpful to Frodo and his companions – that Frodo had dispatched the barrow-wight. The others held back, but the Witch-king was undaunted. A true warrior, albeit an evil one, he attacked Frodo anyway, wounded him, and believing the wound mortal (it always had been in the past, at least so far from proper facilities, supplies, and presumably away from skilled and knowledgeable people – he did not recognize Aragorn, of course), he and his fellows backed off while the malevolent effects ran their inevitable, destructive course. It was the wise and sensible thing to do, and without Aragorn to slow the progress of the splinter in the wound, it would have been successful in overcoming Frodo before he reached Rivendell, however hardy he might have been.

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by Coffeehouse

Seen from a task-completion point of view its obvious then that the Nazgûl were a very poor choice. Just like the Hashashin, they were supposed to complete their task no matter the cost. The One Ring was the be all and end all to Sauron. They are in fact a disgrace to the profession that they were meant to serve in the hunt for the ring if they are unwilling to sacrifice their worthless wraight-lives for Sauron.

CAB is 100 percent correct: the nazgul were the ONLY choice. Only the nazgul could be trusted to bring back the Ring. Only them, no other.

The nazgul were NOT chosen because "they were supposed to complete their task no matter the cost." No. For that Sauron had other servants, maybe he had something like the Hashashin, why not? But they were not the nazgul.
You misunderstand the nazgul's "profession." The nazgul were most valuable, they were IRREPLACABLE, that was a great difference from any expendable killers.

Originally Posted by Alcuin

The only question might be why no living, normal men accompanied them to “Shire� to find “Baggins�. Could no living men endure their company that long?

Maybe, but I think Sauron wouldn't consider the hurt feelings of Mortal Men. If some go mad along the way, that is their problem. CAB is again right, IMO: Sauron still was afraid that one of the Men may steal the Ring.

Originally Posted by CAB

I think the conclusion is simply that Sauron didn't have servants well suited to recovering the One Ring in enemy territory, nothing more.

Actually the first servant Sauron sent to recover the Ring in enemy territory was Gollum. He was much more suitable than the nazgul in terms of searching for the Ring with stealth. He was not reliable enough to bring it back - but here the nazgul could have been sent to hunt for Gollum.

Originally Posted by Alcuin

I don’t think we can fault the Nazgûl in their ruthless, single-minded pursuit. At any number of places they should have captured the Ring, as Sauron anticipated: they were thwarted, or mistimed, occasionally daunted, but mostly just what we would call “unlucky�. They couldn’t very well have stormed the Shire: that would have meant their quarry escaped. A few of them tried storming the Prancing Pony; they assaulted Weathertop and found the defenders unexpectedly resistant: and in this case, we must remember the backstory (as revealed in Tolkien’s notes published in Reader’s Companion) that they thought that Frodo had overthrown the barrow-wight, and he and his companions were wielding dreaded barrow-blades forged by the Northern Dúnedain. Then Aragorn made them chase him and his charges through the trackless wilderness, and the critters couldn’t see well. Finally, they had Frodo trapped at the ford, where he finally collapsed because of his wound and could go no further: there they would indeed have captured him, except that Elrond (and Gandalf) unleashed a flood, an event they could not be expected to anticipate and for which they were completely unprepared.

All in all, I give the Nazgûl a thoroughly terrifying A; but give I Aragorn an outstanding A+, which a many-rayed silver star to boot.

WOW - thumbs up, Alcuin!

Originally Posted by Coffeehouse

The Witch-king has dealt deathblows to his enemies for hundreds and thousands of years, a length of time that any warrior that ever existed in our own world would drool at, and manages to not strike Frodo with the expect pin-point precision into 'the Baggins' heart. I don't expect the Witch-king to hit right above the heart, or right below it. I expect him to hit it square on! Not a millimeter shy of the target

Are you sure that a Morgul blade works like that? Are you sure it is meant to be driven right into the heart? I doubt it. Otherwise, why all this talk about splinters?.. as if the nazgul were known to miss the heart constantly.

A direct hit in the heart by a pointed metal object leads to immediate death.
Yet, it is not the objective - the objective is to turn the victim into a wraith - and that doesn't seem to be an instant event, but a slow process. Likely the splinter has to be inserted somewhere near the heart and travel to it on its own, piercing it gently, like a surgical needle, and inserting the poison and evil spells into the blood flow.

[Coffeehouse]

Originally Posted by Gordis

CAB is 100 percent correct: the nazgul were the ONLY choice. Only the nazgul could be trusted to bring back the Ring. Only them, no other.

Yes we all agree on that, but that's not the point I raised though. What I'm arguing is that there is no point having Nazgûl safely returning the Ring when the Nazgûl aren't able on their own to actually obtain ring.

I disagree about their irreplaceability. I don't believe Tolkien wrote that they were (is there some quote that can back this up?), and you are forgetting one aspect. Although they were highly valuable, they weren't more valuable than the One Ring. It's quite easy to imagine Sauron expending one or two of his Nazgûl in return for the One Ring. If you can answer this I'll rest my case: Why wouldn't he?

Originally Posted by Gordis

Are you sure that a Morgul blade works like that? Are you sure it is meant to be driven right into the heart? I doubt it. Otherwise, why all this talk about splinters?.. as if the nazgul were known to miss the heart constantly.

A direct hit in the heart by a pointed metal object leads to immediate death.
Yet, it is not the objective - the objective is to turn the victim into a wraith - and that doesn't seem to be an instant event, but a slow process. Likely the splinter has to be inserted somewhere near the heart and travel to it on its own, piercing it gently, like a surgical needle, and inserting the poison and evil spells into the blood flow.

Well the miss of the heart and the splinters that were left behind made it appear in the books, Aragorn's explanation etc, that they only wished to maim him, but not kill him, so to bring him into the wraight-world. That is believable... but had the Witch-King acted a little quicker he would have killed Frodo instantly, cut off his hand and run away with the Ring, or simply cut off Frodo's hand. I can't imagine that being so very difficult for the Witch-King to achieve, so why didn't he do it? Anyone with a plausible explanation?

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by Coffeehouse

Yes we all agree on that, but that's not the point I raised though. What I'm arguing is that there is no point having Nazgûl safely returning the Ring when the Nazgûl aren't able on their own to actually obtain ring.

Nobody expected them to fail: neither Sauron, not even Gandalf:

"But in the circle of Isengard, trapped and alone, it was not easy to think that the hunters before whom all have fled or fallen would falter in the Shire far away."

Originally Posted by Coffeehouse

I disagree about their irreplaceability. I don't believe Tolkien wrote that they were (is there some quote that can back this up?),

Ahem - how would you replace a nazgul? Any ideas?

Originally Posted by Coffeehouse

and you are forgetting one aspect. Although they were highly valuable, they weren't more valuable than the One Ring. It's quite easy to imagine Sauron expending one or two of his Nazgûl in return for the One Ring. If you can answer this I'll rest my case: Why wouldn't he?

Oh yes, I believe Sauron would have agreed to exchange 2-3 nazgul (barring the WK) for the One Ring. But the nazgul obviously didn't share this view.

Originally Posted by Coffeehouse

but had the Witch-King acted a little quicker he would have killed Frodo instantly, cut off his hand and run away with the Ring, or simply cut off Frodo's hand. I can't imagine that being so very difficult for the Witch-King to achieve, so why didn't he do it? Anyone with a plausible explanation

I think at the time the nazgul tried to follow Sauron's instructions: to bring him not only the Ring but also Baggins - alive or as a wraith. It was not accidental that the WK hit Frodo with a Morgul Blade, not the sword he had in the other hand.

Note that at Crickhollow the nazgul at the door apparently unsheathed another such blade:

The figure by the door moved. In the dark without moon or stars a drawn blade gleamed, as if a chill light had been unsheathed.

[The Dread Pirate Roberts]

Originally Posted by Gordis

The Witch-King had already done in quite a few heirs of Elendil.

And yet he along with four other Nazgul fled from this ONE wielding nothing but a flickering torch. I know, he feared the barrow blades, too, but Aragorn's appearance was certainly a factor in their flight, as wall as feeling assured of victory having already stabbed Frodo. It was just a matter of time.

Also, I'm not sure the tale of slain heirs is as long as you seem to imply. Who has he personally killed that we know of? Earnur, assuming he's actually dead and not still undergoing some sort of undead torture chamber in Minas Morgul.

Arvedui's boat sank. You might credit WiKi with part of that, maybe.

Who else? Granted, I haven't delved as deeply into HoME as many others here, but I can't recall a single instance where WiKi specifically killed an heir. I'm sure he killed many Numenorians on the battlefields of the north but kings or kings' sons, I'd be interested to read about.

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by The Dread Pirate Roberts

And yet he along with four other Nazgul fled from this ONE wielding nothing but a flickering torch.

Not fled. Retreated.

Originally Posted by The Dread Pirate Roberts

Also, I'm not sure the tale of slain heirs is as long as you seem to imply. Who has he personally killed that we know of? Earnur, assuming he's actually dead and not still undergoing some sort of undead torture chamber in Minas Morgul.

Arvedui's boat sank. You might credit WiKi with part of that, maybe.

Who else? Granted, I haven't delved as deeply into HoME as many others here, but I can't recall a single instance where WiKi specifically killed an heir. I'm sure he killed many Numenorians on the battlefields of the north but kings or kings' sons, I'd be interested to read about.

OK the WK slew Earnur, Arvedui (indirectly), maybe had a hand in killing Argeleb, Arveleg and Boromir I, Steward of Gondor.

In the drafts for the Tale of Years there is a note about Arveleg:

In this year 1409 King Arveleg I of Fornost was slain in battle by the Witch-king" - HOME 12 p.230

And, curiously, in the drafts the Witch-King had yet another victim: King Narmacil II.

At this time the Ulairi (or Ringwraiths) who had seized Mordor long before began to assail Ithilien. Narmakil was slain by the Sorcerer- king." - HOME XII, Heirs of Elendil p.215.

[Alcuin]

Originally Posted by Gordis

OK the WK slew Earnur, Arvedui (indirectly), maybe had a hand in killing Argeleb, Arveleg and Boromir I, Steward of Gondor.

And, curiously, in the drafts the Witch-King had yet another victim: King Narmacil II.

Ooh! I missed those! Thanks!

-|-

Added later

FYI, RotK, “Appendix A� says that Narmacil II was killed fighting against the Wainriders; in UT, “Cirion and Eorl� (footnote 8), Tolkien says this battle was called the Battle of the Plains. As for Argeleb I and Arveleg I, they are good candidates, and they certainly died as a result of the Witch-king’s machinations. “Appendix A� says, “Argeleb ... was slain in battle with Rhudaur and Angmar. ... A great host came out of Angmar in 1409, ... and surrounded Weathertop. The Dúnedain were defeated and Arveleg was slain.�

I will incorporate the information about Arveleg and a note documenting the reference to an alternate ending for Narmacil into the essay. Thanks again!

[Attalus]

I certainly agree with the consensus that the Nazgul failed in their primary duty. I would point out that, even if an Orc (or even a Black Numenorean) seized the Ring, that the scenario played out by JRRT in one of the Letters (sorry, don't have my books with me ) in which Frodo claimed the Ring, was placated by the Nine pretending to take his orders while Sauron arranged to come phsyically came to attend to him would have played out. JRRT definitely says that Frodo, even with the Ring, was no match for Sauron. So, all things considered, using Orcs or Men would have been a better choice. But, Sauron trusted the Nazgul, and them only, with his Precious, for reasons of jealousy and fear, no doubt.

[Coffeehouse]

Originally Posted by Attalus

I certainly agree with the consensus that the Nazgul failed in their primary duty. I would point out that, even if an Orc (or even a Black Numenorean) seized the Ring, that the scenario played out by JRRT in one of the Letters (sorry, don't have my books with me ) in which Frodo claimed the Ring, was placated by the Nine pretending to take his orders while Sauron arranged to come phsyically came to attend to him would have played out. JRRT definitely says that Frodo, even with the Ring, was no match for Sauron. So, all things considered, using Orcs or Men would have been a better choice. But, Sauron trusted the Nazgul, and them only, with his Precious, for reasons of jealousy and fear, no doubt.

Good observation Attalus. It seems there could have been as much jealousy and fear influencing his decision as a cool-headed executive decision to set the best 'men' on the job. The Nazgûl were unable to perform the kind of stealthy mission that they were acquired to do.

It's possible to make the argument that the Nazgûl had a fantastic string of bad luck that simply denied them a well-deserved catch. But surely you can turn that logic around and then we can look at it from another point-of-view. The Nazgûl were fortunate enough to chase between Bag End and the Old Forest not a group of High-Elves carrying the ring or a heavily protected ring-bearer, but three defenseless hobbits who had no idea what they were up against. Bar the night with Gildor and the High-Elves the three hobbits were pretty much sitting ducks.

The Nazgûl were also present in Bree, a town with as much history of combat as the last few hundred years put together of Zürich or Geneva. The Nazgûl could participate in sieges and great battles but not break their way in to an Inn, off all fortified places. I think that shows incompetence, and although Aragorn makes the point that there are many miles yet left of Eriador that would be a poor way to go about it wouldn't it. No worries Stalin!, Hitler's army is only come to Moscow. He still has to cross the rest of Russia, not to mention Siberia. It's not a rush

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by Attalus

I certainly agree with the consensus that the Nazgul failed in their primary duty. I would point out that, even if an Orc (or even a Black Numenorean) seized the Ring, that the scenario played out by JRRT in one of the Letters (sorry, don't have my books with me ) in which Frodo claimed the Ring, was placated by the Nine pretending to take his orders while Sauron arranged to come phsyically came to attend to him would have played out. JRRT definitely says that Frodo, even with the Ring, was no match for Sauron. So, all things considered, using Orcs or Men would have been a better choice. But, Sauron trusted the Nazgul, and them only, with his Precious, for reasons of jealousy and fear, no doubt.

The best choice then would have been for Sauron to get his butt off the Dark Throne and go look for his bauble in person

Originally Posted by Coffehouse

The Nazgûl were unable to perform the kind of stealthy mission that they were acquired to do.

Am I misunderstanding you? Do you say Sauron acquired the nazgul expressly to look for the Ring?

Originally Posted by Coffehouse

The Nazgûl could participate in sieges and great battles but not break their way in to an Inn, off all fortified places. I think that shows incompetence, and although Aragorn makes the point that there are many miles yet left of Eriador that would be a poor way to go about it wouldn't it. No worries Stalin!, Hitler's army is only come to Moscow. He still has to cross the rest of Russia, not to mention Siberia. It's not a rush

I have already answered this question in "bolsters" thread, so I copy it here:

I think the nazgul did not attack the common room because they were so few - not because they were afraid of locals, but because they feared to lose their prey.

Imagine two nazgul with drawn swords rushing into the common room of the Prancing Pony and ordering everyone to please remain where they are and put their jewelry on the table.

What will happen? Some customers, like Strider, maybe also the Dwarves, will stand and fight, but the majority - all the intoxicated locals and all the hobbits included - will stampede in mindless terror through doors, windows and all sorts of exits that they would find. Without automatic fire weapons it is impossible to control everyone in the room, let us face it. The nazgul had not enough men to surround the inn and kill everyone who escaped. It is almost inevitable that some hobbits would get away.

And so what? The nazgul knew for sure that the Ring was in Bree at the moment and later would be moving towards Rivendell. Acting like that would only send the Ringbearer flying - and who knows where? He could hide in any hole in the Bree-hill and lie there low, he could get out of Bree and run north, east west or south.

Much better was to wait and try to burglar their rooms at night - quietly. It was exactly what they did.

[Coffeehouse]

Originally Posted by Gordis

Am I misunderstanding you? Do you say Sauron acquired the nazgul expressly to look for the Ring?

Hehe no.. not acquired, I'm just typing too fast Required was what I meant!

And I agree that there possibly would be much confusion in such a raid. But it again shows incompetence because in Bree the Nazgûl weren't out of luck, but undermanned. The Nazgûl, by splitting up into so many groups, could not effectively execute their mission when they finally had circled in on the ring-bearer and should have struck. Instead they wait until the attack at Weathertop, which shows just how many miles that passed from the hobbits left Bag End till they finally were confronted head-on. It's inefficient, and I give it a C+ at best. The Witch-King gets a minus score for sending two-three completely unreliable and hot-headed Nazgûl for Bree instead of going to the place himself. The Nazgûl in Bree get an even lower score for losing their heads in the situation with Merry, and later when they were suppoed to recover the ring during the night.

It's not a F for failure, but it's outright incompetence. In Bree I think C+ is generous.

[Alcuin]

Originally Posted by Coffeehouse

…in Bree the Nazgûl weren't out of luck, but undermanned.

I think that is an excellent observation.

Originally Posted by Coffeehouse

The Nazgûl, by splitting up into so many groups, could not effectively execute their mission when they finally had circled in on the ring-bearer and should have struck. Instead they wait until the attack at Weathertop, which shows just how many miles that passed from the hobbits left Bag End till they finally were confronted head-on. … The Witch-King gets a minus score for sending two-three completely unreliable and hot-headed Nazgûl for Bree instead of going to the place himself.

The Witch-king had no other good choices: he had no idea where these elusive little creatures were going. In Reader’s Companion, “A Knife in the Dark�, notes for p 176 (I:178), Hammond and Scull cite Tolkien’s notes on the movements of the Nazgûl:

The Bearer seems to be moving eastwards, he is therefore surely bound for Rivendell (not the Havens). He would have naturally used the East Road; but will e do so, now that he knows he is pursued? Probably he will attempt to escape from the Shire at some unknown point, through the Old Forest and the Downs, and there make cross-country to strike the Road beyond {…} {The Witch-king} now sends out [three Riders] separately with orders to reassemble just east of Weathertop, and then return towards Bree along or near the Road. [He] himself, [with two other Riders] redoubles his vigilance on the east-borders along the Greenway . . . his counsels are disturbed by threat of attack. Some of the Dúnedain have met Elvish messengers, and [he] is uneasily aware that many enemies are watching him {…}

The Witch-king couldn’t go himself: he still had at least two more Nazgûl in the Shire looking for the Ring-bearer there, because he might not have yet left the Shire. The same night the Inn was attacked, Fatty Bolger barely escaped from the Nazgûl at the house in Crickhollow. And the Nazgûl were not incompetent on this point, either:

Originally Posted by Alcuin

In Reader’s Companion, “A Knife in the Dark�, notes for p 177 (I:189), Hammond and Scull cite Tolkien’s notes on the event for the finalized form of the book:

The Dúnedain interfered with the Nazgûl sent to inform the Witch-king. The Witch-king became enraged, and sending half his companions across country to Weathertop, rode in a vicious fury with the other four right through Bree.

Originally Posted by Coffeehouse

It's possible to make the argument that the Nazgûl had a fantastic string of bad luck that simply denied them a well-deserved catch. But surely you can turn that logic around and then we can look at it from another point-of-view. The Nazgûl were fortunate enough to chase between Bag End and the Old Forest not a group of High-Elves carrying the ring or a heavily protected ring-bearer, but three defenseless hobbits who had no idea what they were up against. Bar the night with Gildor and the High-Elves the three hobbits were pretty much sitting ducks.

They had to find them. That was the problem: their prey kept vanishing from sight, going places that they either couldn’t go or couldn’t track immediately. Khamûl couldn’t follow them down the steep hill into the scrub at the Woody End without risking his horse, which would mean losing the Ring-bearer for certain and fouling the whole operation being one horse short (lots of horses couldn't tolerate the Ringwraiths); then he couldn’t get across the Brandywine. Then they went through the Old Forest: the three Nazgûl who found Frodo in Bree were probably surprised and delighted. (Remember, one was sent to tell the Witch-king, but he was “waylaid by the Dúnedain�.) Then Aragorn got them “lost� in the wilderness.

The problem for the Nazgûl seems to be that their senses were ruined for this kind of tracking effort, which they do not seem to have anticipated. No doubt several of them were excellent hunters during their normal lives; but as Ringwraiths, they probably suffered from the same loss of normal sight as Sam when he put on the Ring in the Cleft of Cirith Ungol: he couldn’t see well at all. Even the hobbits noticed that they had trouble seeing, and Merry asked Strider about it atop Weathertop.

Originally Posted by Coffeehouse

The Nazgûl in Bree get an even lower score for losing their heads in the situation with Merry, and later when they were suppoed to recover the ring during the night.

That’s what I don’t understand! That’s why I started a separate thread: all the other stuff makes sense except dropping Merry.

[Coffeehouse]

Originally Posted by Alcuin

The problem for the Nazgûl seems to be that their senses were ruined for this kind of tracking effort, which they do not seem to have anticipated. No doubt several of them were excellent hunters during their normal lives; but as Ringwraiths, they probably suffered from the same loss of normal sight as Sam when he put on the Ring in the Cleft of Cirith Ungol: he couldn’t see well at all. Even the hobbits noticed that they had trouble seeing, and Merry asked Strider about it atop Weathertop.

I entirely agree.. it's an aspect which seems to have strongly hampered their hunting between Bag End and Weathertop and which is why I question Sauron's strategy.

I'll give it to you, those are some very persuasive arguments you make Alcuin, I might have to re-adjust the overall poor image I have of the Nazgûl to slightly better

Yet although the Nazgûl nearly got to Fatty Bolger at Crickhollow, they weren't even close to taking the house when the ring-bearer was present, and that's what counts right? It seems having to cross the Brandywine really reduced their chances of getting to Frodo before he crossed into the Old Forest with Sam, Pippin and Merry. So should they be pardoned for having to cross a river or should we expect faster, more intelligent solutions by the Nazgûl? I think this again plays into their cognitive abilities. I just don't think they were particularly creative (bar the minimum a nocturnal hunter would have to have)

Originally Posted by Alcuin

That’s what I don’t understand! That’s why I started a separate thread: all the other stuff makes sense except dropping Merry.

Me neither, it's a question-mark isn't it. Will read the thread

[CAB]

Regarding the retreat on Weathertop, I think we do the Nazgul a disservice by concentrating on the Barrow-blade itself rather than on the implications of Frodo's possession of the sword. The Nazgul expected to find a helpless prey on the hill, but instead saw something quite different (at least in their minds). In the heat of that moment they were probably thinking something like: "A Barrow-blade? Why does he have that? Does he know our weaknesses? How did he get that? He must have defeated a wight. How could a halfling defeat a wight? Wait a minute! Has he learned how to wield the Ring? Uh-oh."

One more reason why the Nazgul had to be the ones to retrieve the Ring: The bearer could become invisible to Orcs and Men, but not Nazgul. Yes, he could be tracked by Orcs or Men, but I would think that actually being able to see him would be necessary at some point. Frodo never really used the invisibility conferred by the Ring, but if needed he could have, and Sauron knew it.

Originally Posted by Gordis

The best choice then would have been for Sauron to get his butt off the Dark Throne and go look for his bauble in person

Exactly. If his possession of the Ring was really that important to him, he should have gone himself. He didn't. He sent the best help he had, but knew that the task would prove difficult for them. Later, he only sent a handful of Orcs to Moria. He sent another handful of Orcs and one Nazgul to the river after the company left Lorien. Why did he expend so few resources? Why didn't he make some sort of bold, aggressive move to recover his Ring? Because it was only a piece of the puzzle for him. Granted, it was a large piece, but not overwhelmingly large.

[Coffeehouse]

Originally Posted by CAB

Regarding the retreat on Weathertop, I think we do the Nazgul a disservice by concentrating on the Barrow-blade itself rather than on the implications of Frodo's possession of the sword. The Nazgul expected to find a helpless prey on the hill, but instead saw something quite different (at least in their minds). In the heat of that moment they were probably thinking something like: "A Barrow-blade? Why does he have that? Does he know our weaknesses? How did he get that? He must have defeated a wight. How could a halfling defeat a wight? Wait a minute! Has he learned how to wield the Ring? Uh-oh."

True, two of the three Nazgûl halted. But the Witch-King, who seems like the only Nazgûl with any real fight in him, proceeded to stab Frodo. Now, like I raised earlier, why didn't he do more? We know what happened: "[...] a glimpse of Strider leaping out of the darkness with a flaming brand of wood in either hand." Am I supposed to believe then that the Witch-King, being less than a foot away from the One Ring, rather than simply hacking off Frodo's hand or simply sending his entire sword through the little hobbit's body and effectively pulling the impaled body towards him, instead retreats because there's fire in the vicinity?

What were the two other Nazgûl doing anyways? It's not like it was a confusing situation. They stood behind him, must have known that the little hobbit wasn't going to stab them from that distance, and should instead have spotted Strider as he came out of the darkness. If the Nazgûl can't see well in the sunlight one must expect that they see alot better in the dark and so why weren't the two Nazgûl covering their Captain while he went ahead, risking his life, to retrieve the One Ring?

[Alcuin]

Originally Posted by CAB

Exactly. If his possession of the Ring was really that important to him, he should have gone himself.

Bad idea. If Sauron was concerned that the presence of the Ringwraiths would disturb the countryside, what would his own overwhelming presence have done? Moreover, Sauron was not without fear, as Gandalf and Aragorn observed. His enemies could have attacked him, and he would have been far afield in hostile territory. Sauron did not build up his immense power by taking long risks: he did it by taking short risks, sacrificing the lives of others, and overwhelming his opponents. He could calculate a risk quite well (e.g., going to Númenor as Ar-Pharazôn’s “prisoner�), but for him, it was all cold, hard logic, with no feeling, and no soul.

Besides, if the Wise determined that he was on the move – and they probably would have made that guess fairly quickly – they would have taken moves to counter him. As far as Sauron knew, the Wise could have known about his Ring, and taken steps to remove it to other quarters. Moreover, Saruman, who at this late stage was communicating with Sauron and cooperating with him to some degree, was also extremely unreliable as an ally: one of the main reasons Sauron used the Nazgûl was because (UT, “Hunt for the Ring�)

his ordinary spies and emissaries could bring him no tidings. And this was due largely both to the vigilance of the Dúnedain and to the treachery of Saruman, whose own servants either waylaid or misled the servants of Sauron.

Sauron was very powerful, but the very next thing in the just-cited passage says that Sauron’s “arm was not yet long enough to reach Saruman in Isengard.�

In FotR, “Council of Elrond�, Gandalf told the Council that

Saruman has long studied the arts of the Enemy himself, and thus we have often been able to forestall him. It was by the devices of Saruman that we drove him from Dol Guldur.

So Sauron had to believe that, based upon the fact that Saruman had already driven him from Dol Guldur (at least Sauron feigned to retreat), and that Saruman was waylaying or misleading his servants, Saruman would also likely cooperate with the White Council one more time to keep Sauron from reaching “Shire�. He probably figured sending the Nazgûl was like sending a military special-operations force that no one had ever defeated (at least, without a might army like the Second Age Númenóreans), and he must have thought he was sure to succeed.

Originally Posted by Coffeehouse

True, two of the three Nazgûl halted. But the Witch-King, who seems like the only Nazgûl with any real fight in him, proceeded to stab Frodo. Now, like I raised earlier, why didn't he do more? We know what happened: "[...] a glimpse of Strider leaping out of the darkness with a flaming brand of wood in either hand." Am I supposed to believe then that the Witch-King, being less than a foot away from the One Ring, rather than simply hacking off Frodo's hand or simply sending his entire sword through the little hobbit's body and effectively pulling the impaled body towards him, instead retreats because there's fire in the vicinity?

What were the two other Nazgûl doing anyways? It's not like it was a confusing situation. They stood behind him, must have known that the little hobbit wasn't going to stab them from that distance, and should instead have spotted Strider as he came out of the darkness. If the Nazgûl can't see well in the sunlight one must expect that they see alot better in the dark and so why weren't the two Nazgûl covering their Captain while he went ahead, risking his life, to retrieve the One Ring?

CAB might be onto the correct explanation. Tolkien’s notes on the Nazgûl make it clear they mistakenly believed that Frodo had destroyed the barrow-wight himself. He was now armed with a weapon, the barrow-blade, that probably made this kind of victory possible, even for a little guy. (Cf. Merry on Pelennor Field later on.) There were five of them, by the way, but Coffeehouse is correct that only three of them rushed Frodo. (The other two were presumably keeping anyone else from escaping, or seeing to it that the Ringbearer did not slip away in any confusion, as had already happened so many times before.) When they saw the barrow-blade, they didn’t say anything, but you can imagine them thinking, “Oh, <expletive>!� and since Black Speech and orc speech have lots of nifty naughty words, you can imagine that it was a pretty good expletive.

Frodo had borne the One Ring already for 17 years. After 17 years, the Nazgûl had probably learned quite a lot about their Rings and the powers they could summon using those Rings: as far as they knew, Frodo must have begun to use the power of the One Ring. After all, he had defeated the barrow-wight, right?

From Reader’s Companion, “A Knife in the Dark�, more of Tolkien’s notes about the Nazgûl from 196 (I:208). The Witch-king

now knows who is the Bearer, and is greatly puzzled that it should be a small creature, and not Aragorn, who seems to be a great power though apparently ‘only a Ranger’. But the Bearer has been marked with the Knife and (he thinks) cannot last more than a day or two.

The Nazgûl have to be convinced at this point that the Ringbearer has begun to use the Ring: that must have increased Sauron’s anxiety later on. Sauron believed Aragorn had the Ring in Return of the King, which can only mean that the Heir of Isildur had forced the little Ringbearer to give up the Ruling Ring, and that he had already determined some of its powers from the creature.

After Weathertop, however, the Nazgûl figured their long chase was almost over: “the Bearer has been marked with the Knife and … cannot last more than a day or two.�

Coffeehouse, CAB, and Gordis, I believe you have all argued that the Nazgûl were reluctant hunters at one point or another. This same passage, close to its end, says of the Witch-king,

Escaping a wound that would have been as deadly to him as the Mordor-knife to Frodo (as was proved at the end), he withdrew and hid for a while, out of doubt and fear both of Aragorn and especially of Frodo. But fear of Sauron, and the forces of Sauron’s will was the stronger.

So yes, the Nazgûl were clearly reluctant to expose themselves to danger. And they were sometimes reluctant servants of Sauron, for that reason and perhaps for others.

As for why the Morgul-lord did not cut off Frodo’s hand and run off with the Ring Ã* la Gollum, he seems to have been frightened himself, and stabbing Frodo with the knife was sure to overcome him, as it had nearly always overcome every other victim for centuries upon centuries.